DTs and Shieldmates?


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

Was wondering, for those of us that have Destiny Twins, will we be able to select Shieldmates for our DT or perhaps the Shieldmates will be the same as our selected Main?

Goblin Squad Member

So, idk if I missed this or what, but what is a Shieldmate?

Goblin Squad Member

From Kickstarter wrote:

Adventurer and Crowdforger Reward Bonus - Invite A Friend: Shieldmate

Invite a friend to the Kickstarter, get a synergy bonus! After the Kickstarter ends you'll be able to either invite or accept a Friendship link with another Pathfinder Online account. Once an invitation is accepted, both accounts will unlock a special bonus: All characters on both accounts will have the Shieldmate Mark. Any time two or more characters with the Shieldmate Mark are in a group (regardless of if the account holders are Friends or not), all the characters with the Shieldmate Mark in that group will get a synergy bonus.

(Buddy and Guild Rewards provide 2 and 6 Pathfinder Online accounts, respectively. You can allocate these accounts as you see fit and there will be plenty of time to allocate them - there is no rush. Buddy and Guild accounts are not automatically Friends, and you can opt to friend other players instead of the other Buddy or Guild accounts in your Reward.)

You can only offer or accept one Friendship invite, so you cannot round-robin the Friendship links. A-B-C-A is not OK. Only A-B.

In addition, the two Friends will get access to the Daily Deals as of the earliest pledge date of the two backers. This is a way for you to enable a Friend to get Daily Deals back to the date of your first eligibility!

CEO, Goblinworks

@Banesama - your Shieldmate is another account, not a character.

This is the description of Shieldmates from the Kickstarter update:

Kickstarter wrote:

We want to encourage backers to entice their friends to join the Kickstarter. In the after the project ends you'll be able to link to a friend's account, and if that friend accepts, you and your friend get a special benefit. Pledges for Buddy and Guild level rewards get 2x and 6x accounts, respectively, that you will be able to allocate as you see fit (and there is no need to worry, there's no rush).

Characters on your Kickstarter accounts will bear the Shieldmate Mark. Any time two or more characters with the Shieldmate Mark are in a party, everyone with the Shieldmate Mark will gain a synergy bonus. In addition, your friend will be awarded all the Daily Deals as of the date you first pledged to back the Kickstarter. Each backer will only be able to invite one Friend and accept one invitation, which will be permanent (but you can change your invite if your friend request is denied).

Destiny's Twin is a benefit of having an Adventurer Level Kickstarter Reward (or a Reward that encapsulates the Adventurer Level). It is a character benefit, not an account benefit.

So: Each Adventurer & equivalent account gets one Destiny's Twin pair. People who forged a Shieldmate relationship will get a synergy bonus whenever any character they have is in a party with any character on their Shieldmate's account.

Goblin Squad Member

Ah.. okay. Thanks for the answer.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
So: Each Adventurer & equivalent account gets one Destiny's Twin pair. People who forged a Shieldmate relationship will get a synergy bonus whenever any character they have is in a party with any character on their Shieldmate's account.

Just to clarify, is when two (or more) characters with the Shieldmate mark are partied, not just when you're partied with a character from the account you designated as your Shieldmate?

Goblin Squad Member

When are you planning on attaching shieldmate accounts?

CEO, Goblinworks

@Jiminy - Shieldmate flags are per account not per character.

@Proxima Sin - TBD.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

Ryan:

I think Jiminy is asking is:

Accounts A,B,C,D all have shieldmates. A and B are shieldmates with eachother. C and D are shieldmates with eachother.

Each account has multiple characters. Characters a1, a2, etc on A; characters b1, b2, etc on B. Similar for C and D. (Capital letter = account. Small letter = character on that account).

So if a1 and b1 group up they get the shieldmate bonus. Same if c1 and d1 group up. But what if a1 groups up with c1? Or b1 with d1?

CEO, Goblinworks

@Nightdrifter - Shieldmates don't daisy chain. They're monodirectional.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

So you only ever get the shieldmate bonus if characters a and b are grouped up (where character a belongs to account A and character b belongs to account B and accounts A and B are shieldmates with eachother). And that's the only combination that gives shieldmate?

CEO, Goblinworks

@Nightdrifter - yes.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Okay, thanks. That makes the choice of who your shieldmate is critically important. If you pick someone you never play with it's useless.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Ryan Dancey wrote:
@Nightdrifter - Shieldmates don't daisy chain. They're monodirectional.

Now I'm more confused.

Assume that each account is used by exactly one player (Not true, but it simplifies the current discussion).

Are you saying that whenever one of your characters is grouped with one of your shieldmate's characters, they both get a bonus, and that bonus is not granted in any circumstance where your character is not grouped with one of your shieldmate's?

Prior explanations had been to the effect that any two people with the shieldmate status would get such a benefit, regardless of where they had gotten it from.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

Decius: that's what I had been assuming as well.

Goblin Squad Member

Kickstarter wrote:
Any time two or more characters with the Shieldmate Mark are in a group (regardless of if the account holders are Friends or not), all the characters with the Shieldmate Mark in that group will get a synergy bonus.

We've just received conflicting information between the way it was explained during the KS-Fulfillment Tool era and this thread.

GW has previously used words like "daisy chain" and "round robin" in describing how Shieldmates are established. Namely account A offers friendship to account B who accepts and they're both done. B can't offer friendship to C who offers to A. And that part matters when it comes to assigning Daily Deals from the Kickstarter. An account can either offer or accept Shield-Matery, not both. Got it.

But regardless of whether any particular account either offered or accepted, its characters now have the Shield Mark. We've been under the impression as stated right in he Kickstarter description that when Shield Marked characters from any accounts group up they get a synergy bonus in playing the game, from their Shield Mark.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks for the more verbose explanation of what I was asking, Nightdrifter. You're spot on.

@Proxima Sin: That KS info is precisely why I was asking for clarification.

CEO, Goblinworks

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'll let Nihimon quote me if able but I think we've been consistent on this point from the start.

Goblin Squad Member

I am afraid that this way, Shieldmate will only be used for Alt-accounts that are used for boxing. If the bonus is anything worthwhile, then even players who are the best of friends and have played together for years will hesitate to become shieldmates, as the other may stop playing at some point.

I too got the impression from the kickstarter that being a Shieldmate would be a bit like being part of a brotherhood, likë for instance the Freemasons: as soon as you are in a party that has another Freemason in it, the bonus applies.

I agree though that the name, and idea behind choosing a Shieldmate implies something between 2 characters only. Else they could have just made anyone with an Adventurer pledge or higher, part of a Brotherhood that gives a small buff when partying together.

I guess the idea behind this reward is that a Pledger with the reward can do something nice for a friend who did not pledge.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I found this thread where Ryan talked about Shieldmates: Shieldmate talk

To be honest, I still feel that Ryans post: "@all Let me be crystal clear" still gives the impression that the phrase "anytime 2 or more characters with the shiledmate mark are in a party together" easily could imply "2 or more OF ANY character with the shieldmate mark".

It goes on a bit after that, and the one before last post by Utreth actually gives the example of *any* shieldmate grouping together will give the Shieldmate bonus; which is then not rectified by Ryans last post: instead he answers to Diella clarifying another implication of the Shieldmate feature but not so much what Diella is asking imo.

After that the thread stops because obviously nobody dared saying it still was not clear to them. :D

But I think it is clear now.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
@Nightdrifter - yes.

Thats not how it reads from the kickstarter page... Nor how it read on the kickstarter fulfillment tool.

It reads as, Anyone who has the shieldmate mark, who form a group together, get the shieldmate bonus.

Edit: I think maybe Ryan misread Nightdrifters post. The above link by Tyncale says differently from Ryans own posts.

Anyone with the shield mate mark, that form a group, get the synergy bonus of being a shield mate.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

At this stage in my life and game development I'm not ready to get Shield Married.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Quote:
Any time two or more characters with the Shieldmate Mark are in a party, everyone with the Shieldmate Mark will gain a synergy bonus.
People who forged a Shieldmate relationship will get a synergy bonus whenever any character they have is in a party with any character on their Shieldmate's account.

There seems to be a significant difference between those two statements. It sounds like the second phrasing is much more limited.

If Adam's account is Shieldmated to Bob's account, and Chuck's account is Shieldmated to Dave's account, it sounds like the first case would give a bonus when Adam and Chuck were in the same group, but the second case wouldn't.

Can you clear that up?

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
I'll let Nihimon quote me if able but I think we've been consistent on this point from the start.

Ego Boo!

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:
Quote:
Any time two or more characters with the Shieldmate Mark are in a party, everyone with the Shieldmate Mark will gain a synergy bonus.
People who forged a Shieldmate relationship will get a synergy bonus whenever any character they have is in a party with any character on their Shieldmate's account.

There seems to be a significant difference between those two statements. It sounds like the second phrasing is much more limited.

If Adam's account is Shieldmated to Bob's account, and Chuck's account is Shieldmated to Dave's account, it sounds like the first case would give a bonus when Adam and Chuck were in the same group, but the second case wouldn't.

Can you clear that up?

I second this.

Goblin Squad Member

Obviously, I posted my question before reading the rest of the thread.

Since I got two accounts in the Kickstarter, one for me and one for my wife, my initial impulse was to think we should Shieldmate each other, so that there would often have a paired group of Shieldmates in our party. I remember deciding that wouldn't be the best use of our Shieldmates when I got the impression that we'd only have to have two characters with the Mark, not necessarily a matched pair.

It sounds like you mean to say: "If at least one mated pair of Shieldmates is in a party, then every character in the party with the Shieldmate Mark will gain a synergy bonus." That's quite a bit more limited than I thought, but completely in-line with my initial understanding, so I certainly don't feel like it's unwarranted.

Goblin Squad Member

Thats not what it says in the kickstarter description though. It specifically says, "Any time two or more characters with the Shieldmate Mark are in a party, everyone with the Shieldmate Mark will gain a synergy bonus."

On that point, they have not been consistent.

Ryan Dancey wrote:

@Banesama - your Shieldmate is another account, not a character.

This is the description of Shieldmates from the Kickstarter update:

Kickstarter wrote:

We want to encourage backers to entice their friends to join the Kickstarter. In the after the project ends you'll be able to link to a friend's account, and if that friend accepts, you and your friend get a special benefit. Pledges for Buddy and Guild level rewards get 2x and 6x accounts, respectively, that you will be able to allocate as you see fit (and there is no need to worry, there's no rush).

Characters on your Kickstarter accounts will bear the Shieldmate Mark. Any time two or more characters with the Shieldmate Mark are in a party, everyone with the Shieldmate Mark will gain a synergy bonus. In addition, your friend will be awarded all the Daily Deals as of the date you first pledged to back the Kickstarter. Each backer will only be able to invite one Friend and accept one invitation, which will be permanent (but you can change your invite if your friend request is denied).

Destiny's Twin is a benefit of having an Adventurer Level Kickstarter Reward (or a Reward that encapsulates the Adventurer Level). It is a character benefit, not an account benefit.

So: Each Adventurer & equivalent account gets one Destiny's Twin pair. People who forged a Shieldmate relationship will get a synergy bonus whenever any character they have is in a party with any character on their Shieldmate's account.

Those two contradict.

Now, when it comes to the daisy chaining part Ryan responded to. Yes they have been completely consistent.

All it states is that characters from the kickstarter will have a mark, then ANY character with the mark in a party creates the bonus. It doesnt say that your chosen shield mate creates the bonus.

Now, I understand that wording can be vague sometimes, and especially when the game hasnt even started creation. But what is stated is what is expected.

Goblin Squad Member

I've always thought of Shieldmates as "my Shieldmate"--as in unique to me--rather than "a Shieldmate", which would be more along the lines of "thus-and-so happens whenever any two characters who are Twice-Marked of Pharasma are in a group together". It's seemed clear to me that I'll select a Shieldmate and get a bonus only when grouped with that character.

It's thus an expansion of benefit to me that it's account- and not character-based.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

What worries me about what Ryan is saying above is that it will be a bonus that shows up so rarely as to be almost useless.

Consider the long term. I think he has stated that he expects something like 20% of the original players to stay keep playing indefinitely. (Something along those lines). Anyways, if we consider the simple case where each person only has one account (so ignoring the cases where someone shieldmates with their second account), then there is a serious problem: what if your shieldmate quits? You can then never get the bonus again as you only get it grouping with a character from his account. So the pairs of shieldmates still playing long term who can receive the bonus is ~20%x20% = 4%.

Taking into account people who have 2 accounts shieldmated to eachother might raise that to 5% of the shieldmate eligible accounts still being able to receive the shieldmate bonus long term. And that 4-5% only gets the bonus in the increasingly rare case where they group with someone from a very specific account.

So ... what's the point of shieldmate? Seems like it falls into the case where it's development time spent on something that will show up on an extremely rare basis.

Goblin Squad Member

I have to agree with Xeen's reading.

My understanding was that the Daily Deal sharing was exclusive with your shield mate, but that the synergy bonus was for any two or more characters with the Shield Mate perk in the same party.

My level of concern for the synergy bonus is fairly minimal at this point, and I will not be too upset either way. But such is how I had interpreted the message.

Goblin Squad Member

Nightdrifter wrote:
what if your shieldmate quits?

Seems to me it was directly and precisely intended as a retention-tool. It gives two players each an incentive to try to keep the other one playing.

Downside for GW: it also increases, to some degree, the risk of losing both at the same time, rather than one or the other.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

Just putting up a quote from what Tyncale linked:

Ryan wrote:

Every character you create with an Account that is a part of this promotion will have the Shieldmate Mark.

Any time two or more characters with the Shieldmate Mark are in a party, all of the characters with the Shieldmate Mark get a synergy bonus.

from this post

Goblin Squad Member

Nightdrifter wrote:

Just putting up a quote from what Tyncale linked:

Ryan wrote:

Every character you create with an Account that is a part of this promotion will have the Shieldmate Mark.

Any time two or more characters with the Shieldmate Mark are in a party, all of the characters with the Shieldmate Mark get a synergy bonus.

from this post

Given this quote, I can see where the confusion comes from.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

I'm thinking that maybe there's confusion due to the language. Maybe due to the fact that the terms "shieldmate" and "shieldmate mark" are being mixed up.

We've been using the term "shieldmate bonus" to refer to the synergy bonus that "shieldmate mark" characters get when grouped together.

Goblin Squad Member

My concept of Shieldmate has always been any time two or more characters with the Shieldmate Mark are in a party, everyone with the Shieldmate Mark will gain a synergy bonus. Because that's what the KS said word for word. Any characters with the Mark.

"Two or more characters" - Were they expecting two mated accounts to multibox THAT often they specify more than two characters is possible in the short blurb, or does it seem more likely they were just saying any characters from any accounts with the Mark?

This thread is the first time in 13 months that's raised any question to my understanding.

Goblin Squad Member

Proxima Sin wrote:
Any characters with the Mark.

Doesn't that make the Mark just a binary "does you has it or does you not" thing? In that interpretation, I don't see how it'd've given us incentive to get our friends to play with us vs some random strangers; I thought "recruit your friends" was part of its purpose.

Goblin Squad Member

I think it was a common understanding at the time that you didn't have to be grouped with your Shieldmate, just any Shieldmate.

So it doesn't matter if you never play with your Shieldmate, it's still a good idea to have one.
Jazzlvraz wrote:
I thought "recruit your friends" was part of its purpose.

I think a lot of us expected to be able to use the Daily Deals as the carrot for Recruitment. In essence, I could find someone who didn't have any of the Daily Deals, and get them all of them by making them my Shieldmate. At that point, we'd both have the Shieldmate Mark and any time either of us grouped with anyone else who had the Shieldmate Mark, the synergy bonus would apply.

If Ryan's reading stands, I expect a lot of folks who've already promised to Shieldmate someone will have to renege.

CEO, Goblinworks

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To review:

The point of this perk being offered was to increase participation rates in the Kickstarter. It's essentially a "refer a friend" program. That is why the intention was monodirectional links - it is not designed to be a perk for backing the Kickstarter in general. It's designed to be a perk for getting someone else to back the Kickstarter.

I think it's mostly harmless if the mechanic is that all characters on accounts with the Shieldmate flag have Shieldmate marks, and any time two or more such characters are in a party all the characters with Shieldmate marks get the synergy bonus. That might actually make the programming less complicated too.

So consider that a reversal of intent from my previous comment, although I'll reserve the right to come back later and say that the designers intend to implement monodirectional links and I was wrong to suggest there would be a change.

If you're worried about how this rule ultimately works out, don't offer the Shieldmate relationship to another account until the rule is finalized. You can't get buy this perk outside of the Kickstarter so there's no information that would impact someone backing the project today or in the future.

Goblin Squad Member

Cool, thanks for the clarification.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ryan Dancey wrote:
...backing the project today...

Anyone else reading these words and getting hopeful for pretty-soon-now access to the new funding tool?

Goblin Squad Member

Lisa said a couple weeks ago that it would be in a couple weeks LOL

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

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Just did some extremely simplistic modelling (simulations) to compare how often shieldmate synergy bonuses would occur in the two argued interpretations.

The model is:

Have 100 players. Each has shieldmated with one of the other 99 players. N random members of that 100 continue playing after a while, where N ranges from 10 to 35. N represents the retention of those original backers (so N=20 would mean 20% of your original players keep playing, N=10 is 10% etc). Now have 1000 new players join, so that your total population is 1000+N. Form a random group of 8 players (I think 8 has been mentioned as group size?).

How often does the synergy bonus actually come up in each interpretation?

Preliminary results indicate that the "any pairing" comes up roughly 30 times as often as the "only specific pairing". The "only specific pairing" happens in ~0.01% of random groups with N=10 and increases up to ~0.1% of random groups with N=35*. The "any pairing" happens in 0.3% of random groups with N=10 and up to ~2.7% of groups with N=35.

*This only counts groups where the bonus occurs, not how many people in the group get the bonus or are excluded from the bonus.

This only applies to randomly formed groups, so results will differ when the shieldmates know eachother and purposely group up.

Goblin Squad Member

Nightdrifter wrote:
Just did some extremely simplistic modelling...

I so look forward to these posts from you; they're always both entertaining and informative.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

Code to produce the results (it's really not that long!):

code::

#!/usr/bin/env python
from random import randint
from ROOT import TFile, TNtuple

#method 1: only specific pairs get the synergy bonus
#method 2: any pairs get it

#step 1: N out of 100 players with shieldmates stay. your sheildmate = 100-x where x=you
class trial:
def __init__(self,N):
self.ks = []
while len(self.ks)<N:
sh = randint(1,100)
if sh in self.ks:
continue
else:
self.ks.append(sh)
#step 2: assume 1000 new players join. make a random group of 8. check if that group has anyone get the bonus
def make_group(self):
group = []
ksingroup = [] #kickstarters (ie. potential shieldmates) in group
method1 = 0
method2 = 0
while len(group)<8:
player = randint(1,1100)
if player in group:
continue
elif player<100 and player not in self.ks:
continue
else:
group.append(player)
if player<100 and player in self.ks:
ksingroup.append(player)
group = sorted(group)
if len(ksingroup)>1:
method2 = 1
for k in ksingroup:
if (100-k) in ksingroup:
method1 = 1
return method1, method2

outfile = 'shieldmate.root'
fout = TFile(outfile,'RECREATE')
ntp = TNtuple('ntp','ntp','m1:m2:N')
for N in range(10,36):
sum1 = 0
sum2 = 0
for i in range(100000):
c = trial(N)
x = c.make_group()
sum1 += x[0]
sum2 += x[1]
ntp.Fill(sum1,sum2,N)

fout.WriteTObject(ntp)

Grr...is there any way for these boards to not screw up the indenting from python?

Goblin Squad Member

Nightdrifter wrote:
Grr...is there any way for these boards to not screw up the indenting from python?

I would recommend linking to a Google Document.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Nightdrifter wrote:
Grr...is there any way for these boards to not screw up the indenting from python?
I would recommend linking to a Google Document.

code

(Requires python and ROOT to run)

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks for this Ryan.

I had promised my shieldmate to someone who had joined at the very end of the KS so that they could get all of the daily deals, but otherwise I dont know the person.

Goblin Squad Member

**possible exploit**

On topic, but leaning slightly to the "not as intended" side of the equation... can multiple people shieldmate the same person?

ie: can half a guild shieldmate the head honcho/someone on the board of directors who should theoretically be online a fair bit and be available for questing fun?

Someone had to ask the obvious... ;-)

Goblin Squad Member

Jascolich wrote:
... can multiple people shieldmate the same person?

No.

This is the description of Shieldmates from the Kickstarter update:

Kickstarter wrote:

We want to encourage backers to entice their friends to join the Kickstarter. In the after the project ends you'll be able to link to a friend's account, and if that friend accepts, you and your friend get a special benefit. Pledges for Buddy and Guild level rewards get 2x and 6x accounts, respectively, that you will be able to allocate as you see fit (and there is no need to worry, there's no rush).

Characters on your Kickstarter accounts will bear the Shieldmate Mark. Any time two or more characters with the Shieldmate Mark are in a party, everyone with the Shieldmate Mark will gain a synergy bonus. In addition, your friend will be awarded all the Daily Deals as of the date you first pledged to back the Kickstarter. Each backer will only be able to invite one Friend and accept one invitation, which will be permanent (but you can change your invite if your friend request is denied).

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

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So is that old thread of people looking for shieldmate partners now obsolete?

The "no daisy-chaining" and "A > B, not A > B > C" mantras were thought to refer to how one could obtain a shieldmate mark, but the mark could function when any two marks (regardless of source) were in the same party. "How do you get a shieldmate mark" and "when does the shieldmate mark do something?" were two different questions, but we've been given the answer to the former regardless of which one we were asking.

Now it looks like, from the dev perspective, those two questions are the same. The mark is inactive until the specific account your account tagged is with you. It's not just any two people with the same type of pendant, but specifically the person who has the other half of your little orphan Annie locket. That works great for multi-boxers, family members, and maybe close friends - people you could've gotten an extra pledge out of anyway - but if you tried hard-selling someone you didn't already know that well into joining the Kickstarter, closer connection with them would be a rather unlikely result.

Incidentally, when I tried pitching the game to local Pathfinder players, the responses ranged from disinterest to derision. The more negative ones could be @$$#@+$ in other ways, such as editing Pathfinder Society scenarios & rules on a whim just to make things harder if we were playing smart & doing well, which is disallowed in PFS where the scenario is supposed to be run as-is. Some disinterested folks just doubted there was any room for another fantasy MMO, didn't want to deal with PvP at all, or were turned off by not being able to explore the world outside of the RK. It's hard even now to talk someone out of themepark assumptions, but this was Dec 2012 and we had much less info to work with even if they would listen. Actual friends I talked to simply weren't interested in getting into an MMO of any sort. Now 'shieldmate' is just a perk for multiboxers and a source of irritation for everyone else. Probably not as irritating as the SWG Jedi system since it's less powerful and not culturally iconic, but then again, this is an absolute barrier rather than an extremely-steep treadmill.

At this point, I'd just give the shieldmate mark to all Kickstarter pledges, and make it function when any two marked accounts are in a party together. For later folks, make it a vet reward obtainable once they've paid/played for 2-3 years. That way, it doesn't become a carrot they can never have, but instead becomes a perk for sticking around. Having the mark unlocked also makes the account a little more valuable in resale, so even if the player changes, you're more likely to retain the revenue from the account.

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