Raw- scribing a spell without first having the spell


Rules Questions


I'm only interested in the RAW if this question not house rules or if it should be done. I'm only interested in if it's legal. I'm typing on my phone so I'll keep this first part short.

The situation: you're a wizard with a crap ton of spellcraft. (It's important later). You have craft scroll by default and craft wondrous. You heard of or saw another caster use a particular spell. For sake of easy math it's a 1st level spell and for sake of discussion you cannot buy said scroll. Since you have to have access to a scroll to scribe a spell and access to said spell to create a scroll you think you're stuck. Then you have a very metagame idea. Does this work:

1) create one time use wondrous item that mimics the spell. You'll have to add +5 to the creation DC since you lack the spell. (Repeat as needed until you have enough to cover the days required for a scroll. In this example you only need 1)

2) scribe a scroll using the wondrous item to give you access to the spell.

3) use newly made scroll to scribe said spell to your book.

Cost breakdown:

Wondrous item: spell level (1) x caster level (1) x 25 gp = 25gp and one day to make.

Scroll: same breakdown. 25 gp

Scribe scroll costs.

Clearly this gets more expensive and time consuming as you need higher level spells, but on the surface is it legal by Rules As Written? If no please cite your sources of rules.

Liberty's Edge

Creating Scrolls

The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)


Creating a custom item if I understand it right? Don't those always rely on the DM giving the okay? In which case you probably could buy a scroll in the first place?

But:
Wondrous item: spell level (1) x caster level (1) x 25 gp = 25gp and one day to make.

That cost breakdown sounds like a spell completion item.

Single use, spell completion Spell level × caster level × 25 gp

Yet the rules state:

Quote:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

So you can't do that. You'd need to use a more expensive formula.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

According to the developers, you can have another source cast the spell for you during the creation process (though I suspect they were thinking of another spellcasting character, rather than an item).

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

1) create one time use wondrous item that mimics the spell.

2) scribe a scroll using the wondrous item to give you access to the spell.

is it legal by Rules As Written?

I get the feeling you won't stop saying your way is RAW until someone comes along with a line in the core that says "Tiny Coffee Golem is wrong".

The problem with your method is that not all spells can be made into an item and they certainly can't all be made into an item using the formulas (since they are last resort when no other item is similar or similar powered.)


James Risner wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

1) create one time use wondrous item that mimics the spell.

2) scribe a scroll using the wondrous item to give you access to the spell.

is it legal by Rules As Written?

I get the feeling you won't stop saying your way is RAW until someone comes along with a line in the core that says "Tiny Coffee Golem is wrong".

The problem with your method is that not all spells can be made into an item and they certainly can't all be made into an item using the formulas (since they are last resort when no other item is similar or similar powered.)

You clearly don't know me then, but thanks for the judgmental response to an honest question.

Edit: also your point is incorrect in that you can create a wondrous item without the spell if you add a +5 to the difficulty. If you have something to add to a RAW discussion please do so. However, i'm uninterested in your house rules as originally stated. Please stay on point. Thank you.


Ravingdork wrote:
According to the developers, you can have another source cast the spell for you during the creation process (though I suspect they were thinking of another spellcasting character, rather than an item).

I'll have to link it, but this was my thought too. In the item creation rules it specifically says you can get the spell from another source and it mentions items. Let me see if I can dig up the exact verbiage.

Edit:

Found it. Second paragraph. bolded for emphasis and this is why I was wondering if my method would work.

Magic Item Creation

To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.

Edit2: So you could, for example, use a Cape of the Mountainbank to satisfy the DDoor Prerequisite for a new magic item.


The consensus thus far appears to be that it's "legal", however cheesy.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

I'm only interested in the RAW if this question not house rules or if it should be done. I'm only interested in if it's legal. I'm typing on my phone so I'll keep this first part short.

The situation: you're a wizard with a crap ton of spellcraft. (It's important later). You have craft scroll by default and craft wondrous. You heard of or saw another caster use a particular spell. For sake of easy math it's a 1st level spell and for sake of discussion you cannot buy said scroll. Since you have to have access to a scroll to scribe a spell and access to said spell to create a scroll you think you're stuck. Then you have a very metagame idea. Does this work:

1) create one time use wondrous item that mimics the spell. You'll have to add +5 to the creation DC since you lack the spell. (Repeat as needed until you have enough to cover the days required for a scroll. In this example you only need 1)

2) scribe a scroll using the wondrous item to give you access to the spell.

3) use newly made scroll to scribe said spell to your book.

Cost breakdown:

Wondrous item: spell level (1) x caster level (1) x 25 gp = 25gp and one day to make.

Scroll: same breakdown. 25 gp

Scribe scroll costs.

Clearly this gets more expensive and time consuming as you need higher level spells, but on the surface is it legal by Rules As Written? If no please cite your sources of rules.

It's in the text... spell completion and spell trigger items require the spell be available, this requirement CAN NOT be bypassed by upping the DC. It's in the magic item creation section... look it up.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

You clearly don't know me then

If you have something to add to a RAW discussion please do so.

Sorry. I'm just very used to threads that say "I want RAW", have an opinion on RAW and won't take any evidence to the contrary. I apologize.

As for contributing, I did. You can simply not just create Spell in a Can items like you want. The price is not "just use the formula" and not ever spell is even possible to be made as a Spell in a Can (True Strike.)

Core p549 wrote:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.


James Risner wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

You clearly don't know me then

If you have something to add to a RAW discussion please do so.

Sorry. I'm just very used to threads that say "I want RAW", have an opinion on RAW and won't take any evidence to the contrary. I apologize.

As for contributing, I did. You can simply not just create Spell in a Can items like you want. The price is not "just use the formula" and not ever spell is even possible to be made as a Spell in a Can (True Strike.)

I appreciate that. I understand how one might have a somewhat jaded opinion about such things on the thread. In my case though i'm actually trying to find out if there's some point that I missed.

Regarding custom item creation: True. Anything that's not in the book will require DM approval. However, for sake of argument we'll say we're making an item that is in the back of the book, such as a heavy load belt to create a scroll of Ant Haul.

Edit: changed the example after I realized how bad it was.

Also, this is admittedly grey area as the specifics processes of creating magic items are intentionally vague. Does it not work because the item can't be activated? Can I simply study the item heavily to figure out how the magic is weaved? Etc. I think the DM is VERY likely to shut this down, but as mentioned i'm just wondering if there's anything specific in the rules that prevents it from working.


LazarX wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

I'm only interested in the RAW ...

Clearly this gets more expensive and time consuming as you need higher level spells, but on the surface is it legal by Rules As Written? If no please cite your sources of rules.

It's in the text... spell completion and spell trigger items require the spell be available, this requirement CAN NOT be bypassed by upping the DC. It's in the magic item creation section... look it up.

Read two posts up from your original post please. The spell is available to make the scroll (spell completion) via a magic item (created via wondrous) as it states it can be. In the creating magic items section. Copied above for your convenience.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

You clearly don't know me then

If you have something to add to a RAW discussion please do so.

Sorry. I'm just very used to threads that say "I want RAW", have an opinion on RAW and won't take any evidence to the contrary. I apologize.

As for contributing, I did. You can simply not just create Spell in a Can items like you want. The price is not "just use the formula" and not ever spell is even possible to be made as a Spell in a Can (True Strike.)

I appreciate that. I understand how one might have a somewhat jaded opinion about such things on the thread. In my case though i'm actually trying to find out if there's some point that I missed.

Regarding custom item creation: True. Anything that's not in the book will require DM approval. However, for sake of argument we'll say we're making an item that is in the back of the book, such as the cloak of Blur to create a Blur scroll.

The first response in this thread answered this from RAW. Most items can use another method to cast the spell needed for creation. However, scrolls can not. You have to have the spell memorized or available if a spontaneous caster to scribe a scroll.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I think this may be strictly RAW, but clearly against the RAI.


Sniggevert wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

You clearly don't know me then

If you have something to add to a RAW discussion please do so.

Sorry. I'm just very used to threads that say "I want RAW", have an opinion on RAW and won't take any evidence to the contrary. I apologize.

As for contributing, I did. You can simply not just create Spell in a Can items like you want. The price is not "just use the formula" and not ever spell is even possible to be made as a Spell in a Can (True Strike.)

I appreciate that. I understand how one might have a somewhat jaded opinion about such things on the thread. In my case though i'm actually trying to find out if there's some point that I missed.

Regarding custom item creation: True. Anything that's not in the book will require DM approval. However, for sake of argument we'll say we're making an item that is in the back of the book, such as the cloak of Blur to create a Blur scroll.

The first response in this thread answered this from RAW. Most items can use another method to cast the spell needed for creation. However, scrolls can not. You have to have the spell memorized or available if a spontaneous caster to scribe a scroll.

You're correct. I guess I should have read that a little better the first time.

It's a case of the specific overriding the general.

I could make something that does the same thing over and over, but I can't actually make a scroll to put it in my book. Seems weird, but it's magic so what do you do?

Thank you.


James Risner wrote:

I think this may be strictly RAW, but clearly against the RAI.

Clearly not RAI and any half way decent DM would shut it down. That was never in question. :-)

In this case not RAW either per the scroll section of the magic item creation. ;-)


Ravingdork wrote:
According to the developers, you can have another source cast the spell for you during the creation process (though I suspect they were thinking of another spellcasting character, rather than an item).

Here's the link. It does seem to be about another character rather than an item, but it does suggest the door might be open.

Grand Lodge

Would it be possible to research a spell that exactly duplicates the spell you want to put into your spellbook?

It may be a little costly, but it should work - subject to DM approval


Nifty Butterfinger wrote:

Would it be possible to research a spell that exactly duplicates the spell you want to put into your spellbook?

It may be a little costly, but it should work - subject to DM approval

Spell research is going to be the only option and possibly cheaper.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:


Spell research is going to be the only option and possibly cheaper.

spell research may be the only option, but it's certainly not cheaper:

700gp * (spelllevel ^2 )
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/downtime#TOC-Research-a-S pell

or

1000gp * spelllevel

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Research-and-Designing-Spells

depending on which rule you want to use


Meninite Omishman wrote:

Creating Scrolls

The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

where is this from? Isnt that quite definite "nope"?


Ilja wrote:
Meninite Omishman wrote:

Creating Scrolls

The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

where is this from? Isnt that quite definite "nope"?

CRB p552.

CRB p549 has the "(although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)" text.

The Page of Spell Knowledge states "creator must be able to cast the spell contained in the page" in the requirements. This is neither a spell trigger or spell completion item, which means you can bypass with +5 DC. PoSK is only castable by spontaneous casters, but you could hire one to cast this for you to make the scroll from. It is a standard item, so no special GM blessing needed.

The Ring of Spell Knowledge lets anyone use UMD to load the ring with any spell up to 4th encountered. Again, hire a suitable caster to assist with scribing the scroll.

Now, the RoSK states "Through study, the wearer can gain the knowledge of a single spell in addition to those allotted by her class and level." I submit that this is enough to scribe directly into a spellbook, but I seem to be the only one that thinks this. I do not think the ring lets you cast the spell.

If you can get your wizard to be able to cast spontaneously, then either item can be used by the wizard. However, I am not sure of any way to do that beyond some "favored school" conversion feat. I don't know if that would count.

Lastly, there is the Ring of Spell Storing that lets you cast any spell loaded into it, even if not on your list or available to your level.

/cevah


Yes it can be done (assuming your DM approves of the custom magic item) but it's cheaper to just copy the spell from another wizard.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

I'm only interested in the RAW if this question not house rules or if it should be done. I'm only interested in if it's legal. I'm typing on my phone so I'll keep this first part short.

The situation: you're a wizard with a crap ton of spellcraft. (It's important later). You have craft scroll by default and craft wondrous. You heard of or saw another caster use a particular spell. For sake of easy math it's a 1st level spell and for sake of discussion you cannot buy said scroll. Since you have to have access to a scroll to scribe a spell and access to said spell to create a scroll you think you're stuck. Then you have a very metagame idea. Does this work:

1) create one time use wondrous item that mimics the spell. You'll have to add +5 to the creation DC since you lack the spell. (Repeat as needed until you have enough to cover the days required for a scroll. In this example you only need 1)

2) scribe a scroll using the wondrous item to give you access to the spell.

3) use newly made scroll to scribe said spell to your book.

Cost breakdown:

Wondrous item: spell level (1) x caster level (1) x 25 gp = 25gp and one day to make.

Scroll: same breakdown. 25 gp

Scribe scroll costs.

Clearly this gets more expensive and time consuming as you need higher level spells, but on the surface is it legal by Rules As Written? If no please cite your sources of rules.

There's no RAW text that says you can use item spells to make up for lack of what you need to scribe a spell.

Remember it's not about finding rules that say you can't do something. The burden is on you to find rules that say you can...... Or get a permissive GM to swallow your idea.


LazarX wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

I'm only interested in the RAW if this question not house rules or if it should be done. I'm only interested in if it's legal. I'm typing on my phone so I'll keep this first part short.

The situation: you're a wizard with a crap ton of spellcraft. (It's important later). You have craft scroll by default and craft wondrous. You heard of or saw another caster use a particular spell. For sake of easy math it's a 1st level spell and for sake of discussion you cannot buy said scroll. Since you have to have access to a scroll to scribe a spell and access to said spell to create a scroll you think you're stuck. Then you have a very metagame idea. Does this work:

1) create one time use wondrous item that mimics the spell. You'll have to add +5 to the creation DC since you lack the spell. (Repeat as needed until you have enough to cover the days required for a scroll. In this example you only need 1)

2) scribe a scroll using the wondrous item to give you access to the spell.

3) use newly made scroll to scribe said spell to your book.

Cost breakdown:

Wondrous item: spell level (1) x caster level (1) x 25 gp = 25gp and one day to make.

Scroll: same breakdown. 25 gp

Scribe scroll costs.

Clearly this gets more expensive and time consuming as you need higher level spells, but on the surface is it legal by Rules As Written? If no please cite your sources of rules.

There's no RAW text that says you can use item spells to make up for lack of what you need to scribe a spell.

Except there is, as has been pointed out a few posts above yours.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Nifty Butterfinger wrote:

Would it be possible to research a spell that exactly duplicates the spell you want to put into your spellbook?

It may be a little costly, but it should work - subject to DM approval

Spell research is going to be the only option and possibly cheaper.

Wizard right?

Just pick it up the next time you level up. You get 2 free spells per level-up.

Sczarni

I'd say raw it probably doesn't work as you describe. There are many one shot things that mimic a spell, ie dust of tracelessness, oil of silence etc and you can't scribe from those, or use them to sub in creation of a spell scroll.

I'd say you'd need to go by the find an item of similar function and value it that way...

So Ring of Spell knowledge.

forge ring is lvl 7...

so spell level 1 x caster lvl 7 x 25 gp = 325gp.

Or going a different route, take your first forumla and multiply by 2 because it's not in the appropriate slot (ring) and we'd simply call this slotless...

so 50gold.


lantzkev wrote:

So Ring of Spell knowledge.

forge ring is lvl 7...

so spell level 1 x caster lvl 7 x 25 gp = 325gp.

Or going a different route, take your first forumla and multiply by 2 because it's not in the appropriate slot (ring) and we'd simply call this slotless...

so 50gold.

Ring of Spell Knowledge

Type I: 1,500 gp
Type II: 6,000 gp
Type III: 13,500 gp
Type IV: 24,000 gp

This can store knowledge of a spell you encounter, not cast a specific spell.

/cevah


But how do these help you scribe the spell?

You can only learn from a scroll, and a scrol explicitly requires you to have prepared the spell you want to write (unless youre a sorcerer or bard)


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
The consensus thus far appears to be that it's "legal", however cheesy.

I don't think I'd say that.

Wondrous items may duplicate the effects of spells, but they don't cast spells, in general. I would not allow a thing that does not actually cast the spell to count as meeting the prerequisite. So you need scrolls or a wand.

That said, I think I *would* let you make a scroll from a wand, because spell trigger items are explicitly stated to count.


Ilja wrote:

But how do these help you scribe the spell?

You can only learn from a scroll, and a scrol explicitly requires you to have prepared the spell you want to write (unless youre a sorcerer or bard)

If you use the RoSK to "learn" the spell, like the spell Blood Transcription does. Now that you know it, you can then copy it to the spellbook without needing a scroll or other magical casting. However, I have not had anyone agree with me that this can work that way. The spell does, however, so you could get a spell (or three) from a recently dead spellcaster.

/cevah


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
James Risner wrote:

I think this may be strictly RAW, but clearly against the RAI.

Clearly not RAI and any half way decent DM would shut it down. That was never in question. :-)

In this case not RAW either per the scroll section of the magic item creation. ;-)

New posters. Please read the entire discussion before posting. The idea has already been shut down with RAW. Thank you for your input though. Participation is appreciated, though in this case about a month late.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:


Edit:

Found it. Second paragraph. bolded for emphasis and this is why I was wondering if my method would work.

Scrolls have a more specific requirement than general magic items:

Creating Scrolls wrote:


The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

A one time use wondrous item does not allow a caster to prepare the spell, it would be a spell trigger item. So it would not allow the Wizard to scribe a scroll.


Akerlof wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Edit:

Found it. Second paragraph. bolded for emphasis and this is why I was wondering if my method would work.

Scrolls have a more specific requirement than general magic items:

Creating Scrolls wrote:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
A one time use wondrous item does not allow a caster to prepare the spell, it would be a spell trigger item. So it would not allow the Wizard to scribe a scroll.

A spell trigger item does not allow a wizard to prepare either.

A wondrous item works, if and only if it casts the spell.

/cevah

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Akerlof wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:


Edit:

Found it. Second paragraph. bolded for emphasis and this is why I was wondering if my method would work.

Scrolls have a more specific requirement than general magic items:

Creating Scrolls wrote:


The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
A one time use wondrous item does not allow a caster to prepare or know the spell, it would be a spell trigger item. So it would not allow the Wizard or a sorcerer to scribe a scroll.

Fixed for clarification purposes.

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