Conductive bows. Do they work?


Rules Questions

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The Exchange

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

So a PFS gm in my area has stated that he won't allow me to use a bow with conductive unless an FAQ or someone with authority says that it works.

His reasoning is that conductive states you must make an attack of the same type as a supernatural ability, and since bows can't make ranged touch attacks they don't work. My argument is that it only asks for melee or ranged as otherwise why bother including ranged touch as an option at all?

So has this been clarified somewhere? I guess I'll also add that this came about from a discussion of if conductive works with alchemist bombs just to cover all bases.


I got around it by buying a +1 Conductive pistol, but in PFS that meant a dip in Gunslinger.

So far as I know, there isn't anything on this being so specific, ranged vs. ranged touch.


Conductive only requires it to be melee or ranged...it doesn't say it has to be touch...if it did then it wouldn't work the way its suppose to

In his world the example of the paladin given in the description would have to make a touch attack with his greatsword...blowing 2 uses of LoH for no reason since he could just blow one use and hit with LoH by itself

Tell him the only authority needed in this case is the the book...after that shout "the power of paizo compels you!!!!"...throwing the book at him

(I do not condone the use of violence)

@TGMaxMaxer

You shouldnt have to "get around" it since it works as stated.


I don't get where his concern is coming from.

The conductive ability states "the same type" but specifies this as "melee or ranged".
So you deliver touch attack abilities through a melee weapon, and ranged touch attack abilities through a ranged weapon.

Nothing suggest that the weapon should be able to make touch attack or ranged touch attacks. And in that case it wouldn't make sense, since weapons does not make touch attacks (apart from splash weapons and firearms).

The Exchange

I've tried to point those things out. I'll state it again and see how I go. Until then anything approaching an official statement outside of the description which would indicate that conductive works with bows would be great.

I also pointed out that there is no such thing as a melee touch weapon, he said that the melee option doesn't mention touch. I get the feeling he just doesn't want my alchemist doing this.


what it mans by same type is if you were a sorcerer with a limited 3+cha per day su ability you could shoot a bow with conducive and exnd uses of that abity if it were ranged. conductive wouldnt work with a bow and a paladins loh because the loh isnt normally ranged.


You should also tell him that he does NOT have the authority to tell you that you can't use the bow. PFS GM's do not have the same power they have in home games. He can NOT run the game, but deciding what to allow is well beyond what his powers can affect.

PS: Rushly go over to the PFS forums with this also.


Wraithstrike is correct...if you have the book it's in or whatever is required...and it's not listed in the PFS banned stuff he is not allowed to limit what you can get just because he doesn't like it

The Exchange

He isn't trying to change the rules, he's simply applying his interpretation. But as no one is available to provide an official ruling either way the only option was to turn to the forums to get a definitive answer.

Theres nothing vindictive here or anything against the rules of PFS. Just one persons interpretation of the rules versus another.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I hate to say it, but he's just being a goober and wants to s*** on your parade.

The book even lists an example as to how it's supposed to work.

Conductive Weapon wrote:
A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric's domain granted power, sorcerer's bloodline power, oracle's mystery revelation, or wizard's arcane school power). When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, who takes the effects of the weapon attack and the special ability. (If the wielder has unlimited uses of a special ability, he may channel through the weapon every round.) For example, a paladin who strikes an undead opponent with her conductive greatsword can expend two uses of lay on hands ability (a supernatural melee touch attack) to deal greatsword damage and damage from one use of her lay on hands. This weapon property can only be used once per round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged).

The bolded part comes out and says that the Paladin uses a Conductive Greatsword to make a melee weapon attack against the undead creature. On a Hit, he may choose to expend 2 Lay On Hand uses to apply a single Lay On Hands effect in addition to what would otherwise occur.

Keep in mind that the clause afterward, says that you must use the proper weapon type in order to do it, so I can use a Fire Bolt from the Fire Domain for a Bow Attack, but I cannot use a Touch of Fatigue or other similar subject.

Show him this, and if he still refuses, then it goes into houserules, in which case you can either deal with it or find a GM who isn't such a goober.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Show him this, and if he still refuses, then it goes into houserules, in which case you can either deal with it or find a GM who isn't such a goober.

House rules are not an option for PFS play.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Show him this, and if he still refuses, then it goes into houserules, in which case you can either deal with it or find a GM who isn't such a goober.
House rules are not an option for PFS play.

PFS Play is not a reason for the GM to be a complete goober about the rules.

Grand Lodge

Okay, just wait until a different person runs a game and buy your bow from them.

The Exchange

For various reasons that I feel it best not to go into that isn't really an option storm. I really do need this particular GM to come around.


Rushley son of Halum wrote:
For various reasons that I feel it best not to go into that isn't really an option storm. I really do need this particular GM to come around.

You could try to direct him here. There doesn't seem to be anyone sharing his interpretation - and that might be a valid indicator for him that he is wrong.


Ask him to explain how he thinks it works...use the example they give in the description

If he can explain how the way he says it works after fully reading the description...then he should quickly realize his mistake


Rushley son of Halum wrote:

He isn't trying to change the rules, he's simply applying his interpretation. But as no one is available to provide an official ruling either way the only option was to turn to the forums to get a definitive answer.

Theres nothing vindictive here or anything against the rules of PFS. Just one persons interpretation of the rules versus another.

I thought you were saying he was not allowing. I guess you meant to say he is not allowing you to use it properly.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

As the GM in question I would like to point out what my contention is on the first and last sentances of the Conductive property;

Ultimate Equipment wrote:
A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target.... This weapon special ability can only be used once per round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged).

Looking at the exact wording (ie RAW) you cannot use the Conductive enhancement on a ranged weapon (such as bow or a firearm) to deliver a ranged touch attack, as they are not the same type. I personally believe that RAI it should work, however in a PFS environment GMs must opperate with the RAW.


Ben Jordan wrote:

As the GM in question I would like to point out what my contention is on the first and last sentances of the Conductive property;

Quote:
A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target.... This weapon special ability can only be used once per round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged).
Looking at the exact wording (ie RAW) you cannot use the Conductive enhancement on a ranged weapon (such as bow or a firearm) to deliver a ranged touch attack, as they are not the same type. I personally believe that RAI it should work, however in a PFS environment GMs must opperate with the RAW.

But in this case type simply refers to ranged or melee, not touch attack or regular attack.

Do you allow it to work on a greatsword? Following your interpretation above, it would not work, since they cannot be used to make touch attacks.


Ben Jordan wrote:

As the GM in question I would like to point out what my contention is on the first and last sentances of the Conductive property;

Ultimate Equipment wrote:
A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target.... This weapon special ability can only be used once per round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged).
Looking at the exact wording (ie RAW) you cannot use the Conductive enhancement on a ranged weapon (such as bow or a firearm) to deliver a ranged touch attack, as they are not the same type. I personally believe that RAI it should work, however in a PFS environment GMs must opperate with the RAW.

Answer me this, how do you make a touch attack with a greatsword? Because by your interpretation, that's not possible. Yet the example given for the conductive property specifically mentions channeling lay on hands (which requires a melee touch attack) through a greatsword.

Quote:
This weapon special ability can only be used once per round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged).

Notice how the part in brackets says nothing about touch attacks? The only thing that matter is, is it melee or ranged?

So RAW, a conductive bow works with an alchemist's bombs. Though I don't see much point in it unless you want the bomb to go farther than 100 ft.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The rules are written plain as day, and this just looks like stonewalling. FAQing this is unnecessary.

Quote:
There's a trend towards "This feat/item/spell/abilty can be read in two ways. One of those ways makes the thing work, the other way makes the thing not work. I can't figure out which way to read it!".

Except it really can't be read in two ways.


There seems to be some confusion here about one issue. Conductive does not work with spells, if you cast cause light wounds you cannot deliver it through a conductive weapon. Conductive weapons work with SP and SU abilities.

I really do not see why this is so confusing, if you are a sorcerer with a 3+cha per day ability that is ranged you can shoot a bow and deliver that /ranged/ SU or SP ability through the bow.

If you are a paladin it will work with LoH on an undead if you are using a greatsword.

A paladin cannot shoot at range with a bow and deliver a LOH on an undead because they are different attack types.

There really shouldnt be this much confusion.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

To me it looks like there are actually two different issues here (well, three if you count the PFS RAW vs. RAI bit).

1. Does Conductive work with ranged touch attacks (ex a sorcerer's ray ability) on a weapon which is not a "touch" weapon (ex a bow instead of a net)?
Gotta go with most every post above me and say, yes, you can use a conductive weapon to deliver a smite or sorcerer's ray CLA-type ability with pretty much whatever weapon you're using with the Conductive property, but we're talking bombs...

2. Does Conductive work with an Alchemists Bomb Ability (which is also explicitly called out as being a weapon in the description)?

The combination of facts that the bomb is explicitly called out as a weapon, the existence of the explosive missile discovery , and the grenadier archtype indicates to me that the intent was not to allow bombs to combine with Conductive. Especially as both the preparation of the bomb and the use of the conductive ability are standard actions and the bomb becomes inert if not used on the round in which it is created. If it is allowed, it becomes a weird case of using multiple weapons simultaneously. I'm somewhat torn because it is a SU, however.

TL;DR - may be right that it doesn't work, but not for the reason stated in the OP.

-TimD

Edited to change SLA to SU on bomb ability for clarification, thanks DWK :)


TimD wrote:


2. Does Conductive work with an Alchemists Bomb Ability (which is also explicitly called out as being a weapon in the description)?

The combination of facts that the bomb is explicitly called out as a weapon, the existence of the explosive missile discovery , and the grenadier archtype indicates to me that the intent was not to allow bombs to combine with Conductive. Especially as both the preparation of the bomb and the use of the conductive ability are standard actions and the bomb becomes inert if not used on the round in which it is created. If it is allowed, it becomes a weird case of using multiple weapons simultaneously. I'm somewhat torn because it is a SLA, however.

TL;DR - may be right that it doesn't work, but not for the reason stated in the OP.

-TimD

Bombs are supernatural, not SLA.


darkwarriorkarg wrote:
Bombs are supernatural, not SLA.

True. Not sure it would change the question though as Conductive works on both, but will edit my response for accuracy.

-TimD

The Exchange

Ben I hope you understand now what i've been trying to say. When the enchantment refers to type it means melee or ranged, it's not talking about touch or normal. If it were then it just flat out wouldn't work.

Also timD conductive isn't a standard action and so works with rapid shot and vital strike, unlike explosive missile which is a unique action.


Rushley son of Halum wrote:

Ben I hope you understand now what i've been trying to say. When the enchantment refers to type it means melee or ranged, it's not talking about touch or normal. If it were then it just flat out wouldn't work.

Also timD conductive isn't a standard action and so works with rapid shot and vital strike, unlike explosive missile which is a unique action.

The difference being that explosive missile is 1/round and uses only 1 bomb, while conductive will have you empty your daily bombs (2/1!) rather quickly.


Rushley son of Halum wrote:
Also timD conductive isn't a standard action and so works with rapid shot and vital strike, unlike explosive missile which is a unique action.

Somehow when I was at lunch earlier I translated "This weapon property can only be used once per round" to "standard action" in my head, it seems. :o/ It's one of those Mondays, it seems...

Anyhoos, granted on the "not a standard action", but debatable use with Rapid Shot as that would violate the "only once per round" part and I'm still not sure it would work as it is called out as a weapon in the description of the bomb ability.

-TimD
... who is picturing the wackiness of an argument involving gnome alchemist/ magus with a Conductive bomb conducting a bomb...

The Exchange

Once per round just means I can't use it on both arrows. I can use it on the first then fire the second without making use of conductive.

Also the conductive ability doesn't make any mention of a restriction in the way you're talking. It only mentions that the su be melee or ranged touch and that the delivery must be of the same type as the su, (ranged or melee.)

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Removed some posts and the replies to them/in response. Personal insults are not OK here.

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