Conductive bows. Do they work?


Rules Questions

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Sczarni

Davick wrote:
No. The ability doesn't say anything about charging up a grave touch to use later. Maybe if you miss you can hold the charge. But you have to make that attack.

You can hold a charge on any touch spell. You don't have to attack the same turn when you cast a touch spell. Ergo, you argument is invalid.

PRD wrote:

Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.


Let me try and understand this:

The argument for Alchemist Bombs working with the Conductive Property (not to be rude, but should be its own thread, since it's showing a lot of irrelevance here) is that it's a Supernatural Ability that allows you to draw components, create, and throw a bomb, all as a standard action.

The argument for Alchemist Bombs not working with the Conductive Property is that when you create a bomb, it becomes its own weapon, and therefore unable to benefit from Conductive since you use separate modifiers and dice.

Am I getting that right?

While both sides have some merit, I'll have this to point out; if the other side can prove that an Alchemist Bomb is an expendable, independant weapon when created, then they have the right to say Conductive won't work with it, since the bombs being thrown do not have the Conductive property.

But I believe the bigger issue may not lie with the abilities working, but more of a matter of physicality. The bombs must have the components drawn and their creation made on the spot; tell me, if you are shooting a Conductive Bow at an enemy, as an Alchemist that has access to Bombs, with no hands free, how are you drawing the components and creating the Bomb to use as part of the attack?

You aren't. Your hands are full, you don't have a tail, extra arms, awesome telekinesis, or the most flexible legs in the world. If you can't draw the components and create the bomb with a set of listed effects, then it can't be done.

**EDIT** For the record, I re-read it, and even if you are able to channel the special effect through an attack, it doesn't circumvent the requirements of drawing and creating the bomb in the first place.


The other topic

It is it's own topic.

also; good point.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

But I believe the bigger issue may not lie with the abilities working, but more of a matter of physicality. The bombs must have the components drawn and their creation made on the spot; tell me, if you are shooting a Conductive Bow at an enemy, as an Alchemist that has access to Bombs, with no hands free, how are you drawing the components and creating the Bomb to use as part of the attack?

How are you casting an SLA/Using LoH/Etc., all things that require the same amount of time and effort as making a Bomb?

Magic.


The way I see it is that the Alchemist is expending double the magical resources to turn the arrow into a bomb without the aid of his mundane components.


Rynjin wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

But I believe the bigger issue may not lie with the abilities working, but more of a matter of physicality. The bombs must have the components drawn and their creation made on the spot; tell me, if you are shooting a Conductive Bow at an enemy, as an Alchemist that has access to Bombs, with no hands free, how are you drawing the components and creating the Bomb to use as part of the attack?

How are you casting an SLA/Using LoH/Etc., all things that require the same amount of time and effort as making a Bomb?

Magic.

Casting an SLA or using LoH doesn't require somatic and material components to be drawn, and created.

Alchemist Bombs do.

Casting an SLA or using LoH doesn't turn that SLA or LoH into its own weapon.

Alchemist Bombs do.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Just so you all know, Point Blank Shot applies to Bombs.

It also applies to Splash Weapons, but not splash damage.

The feat notes:

PRD wrote:

Point-Blank Shot (Combat)

You are especially accurate when making ranged attacks against close targets.

Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.

So, Bombs and Splash weapons, are indeed, ranged weapons.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


Casting an SLA or using LoH doesn't require somatic and material components to be drawn, and created.

Alchemist Bombs do.

Casting an SLA or using LoH doesn't turn that SLA or LoH into its own weapon.

Alchemist Bombs do.

So here's another thing, why is the Alchemist suddenly supposed to be SLOWER when using his magic weapon?

Remember, he can take out the materials, create AND throw the Bomb as part of the same Standard action.

Why can't he whip out the components, rub them on the arrow, and fire?


Rynjin wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


Casting an SLA or using LoH doesn't require somatic and material components to be drawn, and created.

Alchemist Bombs do.

Casting an SLA or using LoH doesn't turn that SLA or LoH into its own weapon.

Alchemist Bombs do.

So here's another thing, why is the Alchemist suddenly supposed to be SLOWER when using his magic weapon?

Remember, he can take out the materials, create AND throw the Bomb as part of the same Standard action.

Why can't he whip out the components, rub them on the arrow, and fire?

Yes, he can take out the materials provided he has a free hand to take and create. But if by your same RAW argument, he has a bomb in one hand, how can he draw out an arrow when the other hand is holding the bow, assuming a 2-armed Alchemist? Does he shoot the bomb via the bow? Does he make the bomb into an arrow to fire with? If that were the case, 2 charges must be expended whether or not the attack hits or misses.

So no, he doesn't. The ability isn't intended to work that way, and trying to wriggle it around by throwing around intent obviously not considered, or making up rules that aren't there, isn't helping the case. The Bomb ability doesn't allow you to substitute it as ammunition, nor is it able to be shaped into an arrow to fire at.

The bolded part has no application, because there is no text even suggesting it can be done. How are you going to fashion an everyday arrow to be a bomb and have it work the same exact way any regular arrow would, when the ability itself, does not consider Bombs to be Ammunition or able to turn into Ammunition.

Not to mention that, a bomb, once created, is its own weapon. The ability even comes out and says that bombs are weapons.

While you are correct, the entire premise of the Bomb is to be able to draw components (assumed Free Action integrated into the ability), put them together (also assumed Free Action, same as the previous), and throw them as a Ranged Touch Attack (assumed Standard Action, since this is the part that makes an attack and attack roll) to simplify into one Standard Action, the Bomb is still its own object and weapon once compiled, and the Conductive Property in no way circumvents the pre-requisites of needing to create the bomb in the first place. A factor that is completely separate from LoH, which is just an application of divine power that does not require the need to create an actual weapon.

Also, can we please continue this conversation to the actual FAQ thread regarding the Bombs issue? It doesn't exactly have any merit here, since this thread is already answered for anyway.

Here's the link. I'll see you there...

Sczarni

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Let me try and understand this:

The argument for Alchemist Bombs working with the Conductive Property (not to be rude, but should be its own thread, since it's showing a lot of irrelevance here) is that it's a Supernatural Ability that allows you to draw components, create, and throw a bomb, all as a standard action.

The argument for Alchemist Bombs not working with the Conductive Property is that when you create a bomb, it becomes its own weapon, and therefore unable to benefit from Conductive since you use separate modifiers and dice.

Am I getting that right?

Many supernatural or spell-like abilities create "weapons" (per Paizo). They are called Rays. These are also eligible for Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot and the like. I fail to see how this is any different than a bomb.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
While both sides have some merit, I'll have this to point out; if the other side can prove that an Alchemist Bomb is an expendable, independant weapon when created, then they have the right to say Conductive won't work with it, since the bombs being thrown do not have the Conductive property.

Again, rays are equally valid as weapons in Pathfinder. Once you cast the spell, you are creating an expendable, independent weapon, which, by your logic, would not work with Conductive. I would hope that people see this is also not true.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

But I believe the bigger issue may not lie with the abilities working, but more of a matter of physicality. The bombs must have the components drawn and their creation made on the spot; tell me, if you are shooting a Conductive Bow at an enemy, as an Alchemist that has access to Bombs, with no hands free, how are you drawing the components and creating the Bomb to use as part of the attack?

You aren't. Your hands are full, you don't have a tail, extra arms, awesome telekinesis, or the most flexible legs in the world. If you can't draw the components and create the bomb with a set of listed effects, then it can't be done.

First off, Alchemists can have extra arms (discovery) very easily as well as prehensile tails (Tiefling). Mine has both. Additionally, it nowhere states that you have to have your hands free to use Conductive. Otherwise, Conductive bows and two-handed weapons would be impossible for any person outside of Alchemists with extra arms or Tieflings with prehensile tails. Additionally, if you needed a free hand for bombs, then you would need a free hand for Lay on Hands, but the example given was a Greatsword-wielding Paladin which requires both of his hands.

PRD wrote:
Lay on Hands: ... Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.

How does the example given work if you are requiring a free hand for Conductive?


Rynjin wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


Casting an SLA or using LoH doesn't require somatic and material components to be drawn, and created.

Alchemist Bombs do.

Casting an SLA or using LoH doesn't turn that SLA or LoH into its own weapon.

Alchemist Bombs do.

So here's another thing, why is the Alchemist suddenly supposed to be SLOWER when using his magic weapon?

Remember, he can take out the materials, create AND throw the Bomb as part of the same Standard action.

Why can't he whip out the components, rub them on the arrow, and fire?

If he can do that, and there is a discovery for it, why does he need a conductive weapon?

And another logistics point to ponder, conductive doesn't work until a successful attack, but bombs require mixing components like an extract. What's up with that?

Sczarni

Davick wrote:
And another logistics point to ponder, conductive doesn't work until a successful attack, but bombs require mixing components like an extract. What's up with that?

The same logistics point of ranged Conductive weapons channel your SU or SLA energy after a successful hit despite the ranged ammunition already being significantly away from your person. How is channeling a bomb through an arrow any farther of a leap from channeling an SLA Ray through an arrow after a successful hit? Are you shooting a ray from your finger a split second before it hits to charge the arrow?


Kaito Darkborn wrote:
Davick wrote:
And another logistics point to ponder, conductive doesn't work until a successful attack, but bombs require mixing components like an extract. What's up with that?
The same logistics point of ranged Conductive weapons channel your SU or SLA energy after a successful hit despite the ranged ammunition already being significantly away from your person. How is channeling a bomb through an arrow any farther of a leap from channeling an SLA Ray through an arrow after a successful hit? Are you shooting a ray from your finger a split second before it hits to charge the arrow?

Because you don't mix together the parts of a ray to make it volatile.


So?


Rushley son of Halum wrote:

So a PFS gm in my area has stated that he won't allow me to use a bow with conductive unless an FAQ or someone with authority says that it works.

His reasoning is that conductive states you must make an attack of the same type as a supernatural ability, and since bows can't make ranged touch attacks they don't work. My argument is that it only asks for melee or ranged as otherwise why bother including ranged touch as an option at all?

So has this been clarified somewhere? I guess I'll also add that this came about from a discussion of if conductive works with alchemist bombs just to cover all bases.

It specifies "For example, a paladin who strikes an undead opponent with her conductive greatsword can expend two uses of lay on hands ability (a supernatural melee touch attack)"

So if melee TOUCH can be used with a NON TOUCH greatsword attack
where is the rationale that
ranged TOUCH canNOT be used with a NON TOUCH longbow attack...

Hypocrisy is a horrible affliction,i hear heal cures it though lol

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a few posts. Leave personal attacks out of the conversation, please.

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