If a man kills several innocent people, should mercy be shown? He has broken the laws, and committed an act of evil. Should he not be killed?
Perhaps, but not mercilessly. Imprisoning him would be far better; I'm not a fan of infinite punishment for finite wrongdoing. The punishment must fit the crime.
Merciless means cruel, pitiless, ruthless, unfeeling, and harsh. Merciless would mean you make him suffer as you deal out the punishment, and it would mean punishing someone overly so for what they did, such as chopping the hands off a thief or something similarly over the top. Torag's 'scatter their families' is WAY over the top ... taking it out on their relatives, if they didn't have anything to do with it? No way. Merciless would also mean things like not accepting surrender.
I mean, have you ever heard of a good guy named 'The Merciless'? There's a reason for that.
Sense when was justice merciful? Justice is harsh on the wicked. As it should be. Avenger paladins would ask why show mercy To evil when it would cause thousands of deaths later.To me, that's completely contrary to the Paladin code, what with mercy being an integral part of justice and all. That tells me Torag shouldn't have Paladins.Torag's code specifically states the following:
Against my people's enemies I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except to extract information. I will defeat them, and I will scatter their families.
One of my favorite poetic definitions of justice is "vengeance tempered with mercy". Technically, justice is concerned with guilt not wickedness, and restitution rather than retribution. There's a reason that the US Constitution (among others) includes a prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.
Justice can't become an excuse for sadism. I'd say a paladin that walks around with Detect Evil up and slaughters everyone who detects as evil is just another flavor of murder hobo.
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From the OP's description the paladin didn't know the bbeg would escape to slaughter dozens, or even that the bbeg was big, bad, or evil, until after he had already left.^ I agree with this. But there is a point where someone crosses the line. Killing =\ merciless and wicked. Death by torture is an extreme example.
If a paladin knows bbeg will escape to slaughter dozens. Why would he not kill him the bbeg has already shone redemption is beyond him.
I am not arguing he should fall, this is a case where I wouldn't even say an atonement is needed. He made a proper decision based on the information he had. (now he SHOULD want to find and recapture said villain)
I am arguing that mercy is not always the best route, even for a paladin.
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Of course not punishing Evil is evil, and thus a paladin would fall.
But of course, so then would be punishing them too much. Falls.
A Paladin must punish juuust right, Like in Goldilocks.
In fact if a paladin does anything but lay in bed with his head under the covers- he falls.
Hmm, no- wait- Sloth is a deadly sin too. So, that's out.
Yep, every paladin falls within moments of taking his oath. No- wait- just by taking his oath, he's lying, so FALL!
Fall, fall, fall, fall, fall. Antipaladins all.
Isn't anyone tired of paladin alignment threads yet?
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Justice can't become an excuse for sadism. I'd say a paladin that walks around with Detect Evil up and slaughters everyone who detects as evil is just another flavor of murder hobo.
No, that's being a good paladin.
*Detects evil on Gwen Smith*
EDIT: And if people just listened to my advice, DrDeth, we wouldn't need these threads. You can bring the holy light of righteousness to the heathen masses, but you can't make them not be heathen masses. All you can do is constantly detect and smite.
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..."Good > Lawful, every day" is rubbish...
.. is rubbish, er.. I mean .. is garbage.
The sole reason for being a Paladin is to be Good. To do this you follow the moral codes set down by one's deity and you are Lawful about following them. The rules of Man (or Elf, Dwarf, Orc, etc.), where they do not coincide with that of your deity are not true laws and need not be followed. Where they are in lock-step with that great codified work you embody, there is no higher truth.
This is true for each of the Paladin orders in any game world and illustrates the complexity of personal and organizational point-of-view.
To hold Lawfulness above that of Goodness beholdens the Paladin to every whimsical "law" which might be passed in the area he/she/it happens to be traveling through at the time. Imagine a Paladin traveling through a nation where it was illegal to be a member of the Church of Sarenrae and he happens to run across a small cabal of said Sarenrae priests hidden away. By the Law, he/she/it would be required by the alignment strictures to turn these criminals in to the proper authorities. Even if by doing so he/she/it would be indirectly causing the death of these people.
So, I posit that Good is superior to Law in the LG alignment requirement of the Paladinhood. Defending life (good) is one of the highest callings of these people, protecting the property rights (law) is less so.
Just my 2cp
Nifty
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TriOmegaZero's link nailed how we do it. There's a lot of ways to play a Paladin and all are true to the spirit of what he represents. He can be more Knight/Sheriff and maintain the law of the land. He could also be a crusader type were he's in opposing territory - or even a land with no laws and leans more heavily on his personal code and that trumps all else. A great example is an area where the laws are corrupt because of an evil ruler. A good Paladin wouldn't go along with evil laws.
If something is really questionable, we warn them before or let them know they'll need to atone if they go through. Then it makes for an immediate adventure seed for next session. His friends will usually want to help him stay a paladin so they can come.
If a man kills several innocent people, should mercy be shown? He has broken the laws, and committed an act of evil. Should he not be killed?
What do the laws and social traditions say? Is there any justification or attenuating circumstances? Has he shown remorse and tried to redress the consequences of his crime? Perhaps imprisonment or exile would also be a fitting punishment.
Justice should be done, but justice may leave some freedom to accomodate mercy. In the case of smaller crimes in particular, a paladin can be quite lenient.
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One of my favorite poetic definitions of justice is "vengeance tempered with mercy". Technically, justice is concerned with guilt not wickedness, and restitution rather than retribution. There's a reason that the US Constitution (among others) includes a prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.
Justice can't become an excuse for sadism. I'd say a paladin that walks around with Detect Evil up and slaughters everyone who detects as evil is just another flavor of murder hobo.
Be careful pulling in the Constitution and the other such documents, as the bill of rights bans slavery and debtors prison, among other things, along with cruel and unusual punishment. Yet, many states still allow the death penalty.
We aren't dealing with the guy who murders someone in a fit of "passion" or maybe someone who even kills someone because they wronged him (even if premeditated), we are dealing with the evil, vile creatures who aren't going to change, typically. When the pattern of your behavior is to kill 10s or 100s, and you come face to face with a paladin..you are probably going to peg the detect evil meter.
Now, I am not saying the paladin and his friends should go around murdering everyone who pops detect evil, because we all know the flaws in the detect evil process.
In some ways, while I love the paladin, I think the inquisitor is probably the better class for folks who want to be the righteous arm of their deity.
By the way, Gwen, I have agreed with most of your points in this thread, just wanted to caution everyone from trying to force Golarion into the US or other "modern" places.
I think I have an answer to these paladin debates:
Any time a paladin finds himself up in the air with no solid support and no magic such as feather fall, levitate, or fly to keep him aloft -- he will fall!