"Windy Escape" vs. a grapple?


Rules Questions


Question: can a spellcaster use "Windy Escape" to avoid a grapple?

Windy Escape
Level: 1
School: Transmutation [air]
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you. You gain DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack.

You cannot use windy escape against an attack of opportunity you provoked by casting a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using any other magical ability that provokes an attack of opportunity whenused.

Appears In: Advanced Race Guide


Yeah, I'd say so.
Grapple is an "attack".


I would not think DR is going to help you against a grapple.


I agree a DR would not help against a grapple per se, but the spell says you become vaporous and insubstantial, which seems to me would make a grapple attempt fail.


It's still an attack option.
That's why I put it in quotations.

Are you saying that you can avoid a sword attack, but not someone trying to grab you?

Silver Crusade

You gain DR 10/magic, immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack.

You do not gain incorporeal ability.

If your opponent does not overcome the DR, flavor-wise, it is because of your vaporous and insubstantial form. Mechanically, you simply have DR.

You can still be grappled, tripped, bull rushed, dirty tricked, repositioned and just plain ol' attacked. Combat maneuvers are at an advantage because they do not have to contend with DR whereas a normal attack must defeat DR10/magic to do any damage.


Okay, that's my fault. I didn't read the spell completely.
I apologize, my bad.


By that logic, though, you're saying you could grapple someone who is in Gaseous Form - that spell uses the same wording, and does not specify that it grants the incorporeal condition:

School transmutation; Level bard 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components S, M/DF (a bit of gauze and a wisp of smoke)
Range touch
Target willing corporeal creature touched
Duration 2 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent. Its material armor (including natural armor) becomes worthless, though its size, Dexterity, deflection bonuses, and armor bonuses from force effects still apply. The subject gains DR 10/magic and becomes immune to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits. It can't attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. This does not rule out the use of certain spells that the subject may have prepared using the feats Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials. The subject also loses supernatural abilities while in gaseous form. If it has a touch spell ready to use, that spell is discharged harmlessly when the gaseous form spell takes effect.

A gaseous creature can't run, but it can fly at a speed of 10 feet and automatically succeeds on all Fly skill checks. It can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, with all it was wearing or holding in its hands, as long as the spell persists. The creature is subject to the effects of wind, and it can't enter water or other liquid. It also can't manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form. Continuously active items remain active, though in some cases their effects may be moot.


bigrig107 wrote:

It's still an attack option.

That's why I put it in quotations.

Are you saying that you can avoid a sword attack, but not someone trying to grab you?

Yes, but look at what the spell actually does. It grants you DR vs a single attack. So it would let you avoid any damage resulting from a grapple maneuver. it wouldn't, however, let you avoid the grapple itself.


Bardic Dave wrote:
bigrig107 wrote:

It's still an attack option.

That's why I put it in quotations.

Are you saying that you can avoid a sword attack, but not someone trying to grab you?

Yes, but look at what the spell actually does. It grants you DR vs a single attack. So it would let you avoid any damage resulting from a grapple maneuver. it wouldn't, however, let you avoid the grapple itself.

If you look, you see that I say I didn't read it all the way through.

That's what I get for not reading! :D


I see the Gaseous Form/Grapple question has been brought before; I'll go read those threads, because it seems like the same ruling should apply.


I've had many discussions with my GM and my pathfinder group as a whole about this spell. The wording isn't very clear, but I believe I understand how it works now.

Windy Escape wrote:

Duration: Instantaneous

You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you. You gain DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack.

The spell says you briefly become vaporous and insubstantial. Its not saying that just to add flavor to the text, it really means you become vaporous and insubstantial.

So....What this means is any physical based attacks WILL pass thru you harmlessly. Where the DR 10/magic comes into play is when you are targeted by magic.

Example: A fireball lands at your feet. You take damage after applying the DR 10/magic.

Example2: You are targeted by a magic missile spell. You take damage after applying the DR 10/magic.

Example3: You are in the middle of an burning hands spell. You take damage after applying the DR 10/magic.

Example4: Mr. Orc swings at you with his 2-handed axe. You are insubstantial and it passes thru you harmlessly.

Example5: Mr. 10th level fighter takes a chop at you with his +2 long sword. You are insubstantial and it passes thru you harmlessly.

So for your example: The grappler tries to grab you and his arms pass thru you without making contact.


Your examples 1-3 do not apply since DR does not apply to spells.
Your example 5 is using a +2 sword, so it also bypasses DR.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Darthslash wrote:

I've had many discussions with my GM and my pathfinder group as a whole about this spell. The wording isn't very clear, but I believe I understand how it works now.

Windy Escape wrote:

Duration: Instantaneous

You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you. You gain DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack.

The spell says you briefly become vaporous and insubstantial. Its not saying that just to add flavor to the text, it really means you become vaporous and insubstantial.

So....What this means is any physical based attacks WILL pass thru you harmlessly. Where the DR 10/magic comes into play is when you are targeted by magic.

Example: A fireball lands at your feet. You take damage after applying the DR 10/magic.

Example2: You are targeted by a magic missile spell. You take damage after applying the DR 10/magic.

Example3: You are in the middle of an burning hands spell. You take damage after applying the DR 10/magic.

Example4: Mr. Orc swings at you with his 2-handed axe. You are insubstantial and it passes thru you harmlessly.

Example5: Mr. 10th level fighter takes a chop at you with his +2 long sword. You are insubstantial and it passes thru you harmlessly.

So for your example: The grappler tries to grab you and his arms pass thru you without making contact.

Sorry but you are way off on a few things here.

It never says physical attacks bypass you harmlessly and if it meant that you could only be harmed by magic weapons, why would it give you DR/magic?

Example 1: DR never applies to spell damage such as this. You would need resistance to fire or something to take damage off the fireball.

Example 2: Magic missile can only be stopped by Spell resistance or a Shield spell or some other defense like that but not DR.

Example 3: See example 1

Example 4: If the orc hits you, you take the damage minus 10 points, ie DR/magic.

Example 5: You take damage as normal on a hit.

Sorry to say this but you don't seem to know what the rules about DR are and how the wording of a spell is applied. Windy Escape does nothing to stop a grapple.


Your right, I don't know much about the DR rules, they have always eluded my understanding.

But why would the spell say "You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you." If all your going to get is DR 10/magic?

Why not just say that you get DR 10/magic for this attack? *confused*

Shadow Lodge

@darthslash

"You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you."

This tells us how the spell looks.

"You gain DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack."

This tells us how the spell works.

If you do not do enough damage to overcome the DR, the description is what allows us to describe what exactly what happened and why.

Player:
"I did 9 points of damage with my greatsword!"

GM:
"Your sword slashes at his misty form but has no effect on his insubstantial body."

OR

Player:
"I did 15 points of damage with my greatsword!"

GM:
"You hack mightily at his misty form...but the blow does not strike solidly--his vaporous body seems unaffected by most of the damage."


Hendelbolaf wrote:
some very sensible things

Hendelbolaf is 100% correct here. Darthslash's analysis is built on a faulty understanding of the rules.


I'd say Hendlebolaf is 83.3% correct. All the examples are right, but the grapple question is simply not addressed. If you go RAW, then you could certainly say it does nothing against a grapple, but as one of the designers (SKR) said in the thread on Grappling VS Gaseous Form, "You can't grapple a gaseous creature, that's obvious and we shouldn't need to state that in the rules. If a gaseous creature can slip through any crack because it's gaseous, it can easily slip through the gaps between your fingers or arms."

Given that both Gaseous Form and Windy Escape use the exact same descriptor ("insubstantial"), DR, etc., I'd say it's reasonable for a GM to rule they both are good vs. grappling. But if your GM sez "RAW!" on this one, that's a justifiable call.


But you are only vaporous for one instant. Is that long enough to slip from a grapple?


Brf wrote:
But you are only vaporous for one instant. Is that long enough to slip from a grapple?

Good question, and definitely a GM call. I could see having the caster make some kind of dex check or reflex save to time it just right, maybe. Or have the grappler make a check to maintain position for that moment, or they stumble and lose the hold due to the sudden lack of resistance. Or maybe the former for the initial grapple attack, and the latter for continuing grapple checks on an already-grappled caster.


I can picture it... the attacker losing his grip and flailing to hold onto the smoke before the caster solidifies.


Thinking about it some more, I think if I was GMing the situation, I'd say the caster could automatically time it right vs. the initial grapple attack, since they can automatically time it right for a sword swing, but if they are trying to escape an already grappled condition, then the other grappler should make some kind of check or they lose the hold.


The rules state that the attack passes harmlessly through you. It then also add the 10/magic and other immunities; all of this identical someone in gaseous form.

The devs have ruled that you can't grapple someone who is in this state.

They even go so far as to say "that's obvious and we shouldn't need to state that in the rules."


It never actually states you go incorporeal.

Yes, the first sentence is poorly-written. I think if you were intended to be incorporeal or in gaseous form, it would've said so.


It states you become insubstantial and that attacks pass through you.

So if you do as the spell states, then you can't be grappled.

In addition, you gain 10/magic DR and several immunities.


Why would you need damage reduction and the other immunities if the attack doesn't even affect you?

Why would it be necessary to say all the other stuff, if it couldn't even touch you?


bigrig107 wrote:

Why would you need damage reduction and the other immunities if the attack doesn't even affect you?

Why would it be necessary to say all the other stuff, if it couldn't even touch you?

For the same reasons you get those exact benefits from gaseous form. It's a way of defining things that can still do damage to you despite being insubstantial.


Even if it did let you take a gaseous form, it doesn't matter.
The effects of this spell only apply to ONE attack. One.

The first sentence is poorly-placed fluff.
The actual benefits of the spell are;

Advanced Race Guide wrote:
"You gain DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack."

Silver Crusade

After reading SKR's comment Bruno reverse self and say Windy Escape work against grapple. Bruno wish Windy Escape written better to state mechanical benefits, but such is life.

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