baron arem heshvaun |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have pointed this out, the Ghost clearly makes it out of the Battle of Scarif.
Which could very well mean Star Wars Rebels may continue past the events of A New Hope.
Werthead |
There's also the possibility that it was another ship of the same class. Given how cool the Ghost is, the Alliance may have picked up a whole bunch more ships of the same class and maybe upgraded them to similar specs.
Dave Filoni also said he has a story in mind for how the REBELS crew intersect with the events of ROGUE ONE, and hopes they'll be able to tell it in a later season. They still need to convincingly explain how Ezra and Kanan disappear during the events of the original move trilogy though (I like the idea they have to take off with the younglings they rescued in Season 2 to start training them, and this forms the core of Luke's new generation of Jedi that Kylo Ren later wipes out).
jemstone |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I know I've said this before, and I know a lot of people love their Secret Jedi, but I sincerely hope that all the non-Movie Jedi are wiped out to the last by the time they get to the events of ANH. Even if that means all the members of Rebels end up staring into the sky at Alderaan as a new moon rises over the horizon.
Disagree with me all you want, but if there are all these Secret Jedi running around out there, the entire Skywalker Legacy story arc is rendered null and void, unimportant, and more or less meaningless. It loses its impact and its importance, because it means that Luke is realistically no longer the "last hope" of the Jedi, no longer the true method of bringing balance to The Force, and no longer the real hero of the story.
Surviving Secret Jedi end up removing the importance of that entire line of thought, because it means that it didn't have to be Luke, Obi-Wan's exile was for nothing, and the "last hope" is yet another example of Yoda being wrong.
Granted, I also have this same problem with non-Sith Dark Side traditions, as well.
The Emperor's purge was supposed to be really good. As much as he wanted the Jedi out of the way, he's not the kind to let potential rival traditions stick around and cause trouble further down the line. Palpatine is ruthless and cruel enough to wipe them all out to the last, just like the Jedi, in order to make sure there are no threats to his power.
phantom1592 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I know I've said this before, and I know a lot of people love their Secret Jedi, but I sincerely hope that all the non-Movie Jedi are wiped out to the last by the time they get to the events of ANH. Even if that means all the members of Rebels end up staring into the sky at Alderaan as a new moon rises over the horizon.
Disagree with me all you want, but if there are all these Secret Jedi running around out there, the entire Skywalker Legacy story arc is rendered null and void, unimportant, and more or less meaningless. It loses its impact and its importance, because it means that Luke is realistically no longer the "last hope" of the Jedi, no longer the true method of bringing balance to The Force, and no longer the real hero of the story.
Surviving Secret Jedi end up removing the importance of that entire line of thought, because it means that it didn't have to be Luke, Obi-Wan's exile was for nothing, and the "last hope" is yet another example of Yoda being wrong.
Granted, I also have this same problem with non-Sith Dark Side traditions, as well.
The Emperor's purge was supposed to be really good. As much as he wanted the Jedi out of the way, he's not the kind to let potential rival traditions stick around and cause trouble further down the line. Palpatine is ruthless and cruel enough to wipe them all out to the last, just like the Jedi, in order to make sure there are no threats to his power.
I agree. I liked the idea of West end games that you could have the occasional failed jedi and the apprentice... but the point was that there was nobody left of consequence. just a few broken down old drunks who couldn't do anything. The Rebels crew?? They are of consequence. They have done SERIOUS damage to the empire and Vader's authority using lightsabers and the force...
If they are around and a part of the Rebels... then why was Obi-wan 'Her only hope'? It falls apart. Vader believed the Jedi to have been wiped out and personally exterminated most of them.
I like Rebels... but I like it better with an expiration date attached to it.
Freehold DM |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I know I've said this before, and I know a lot of people love their Secret Jedi, but I sincerely hope that all the non-Movie Jedi are wiped out to the last by the time they get to the events of ANH. Even if that means all the members of Rebels end up staring into the sky at Alderaan as a new moon rises over the horizon.
Disagree with me all you want, but if there are all these Secret Jedi running around out there, the entire Skywalker Legacy story arc is rendered null and void, unimportant, and more or less meaningless. It loses its impact and its importance, because it means that Luke is realistically no longer the "last hope" of the Jedi, no longer the true method of bringing balance to The Force, and no longer the real hero of the story.
Surviving Secret Jedi end up removing the importance of that entire line of thought, because it means that it didn't have to be Luke, Obi-Wan's exile was for nothing, and the "last hope" is yet another example of Yoda being wrong.
Granted, I also have this same problem with non-Sith Dark Side traditions, as well.
The Emperor's purge was supposed to be really good. As much as he wanted the Jedi out of the way, he's not the kind to let potential rival traditions stick around and cause trouble further down the line. Palpatine is ruthless and cruel enough to wipe them all out to the last, just like the Jedi, in order to make sure there are no threats to his power.
I must disagree.
It is a big galaxy. And Yoda and Obi-Wan are mortal and not infallible.
Freehold DM |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
jemstone wrote:I know I've said this before, and I know a lot of people love their Secret Jedi, but I sincerely hope that all the non-Movie Jedi are wiped out to the last by the time they get to the events of ANH. Even if that means all the members of Rebels end up staring into the sky at Alderaan as a new moon rises over the horizon.
Disagree with me all you want, but if there are all these Secret Jedi running around out there, the entire Skywalker Legacy story arc is rendered null and void, unimportant, and more or less meaningless. It loses its impact and its importance, because it means that Luke is realistically no longer the "last hope" of the Jedi, no longer the true method of bringing balance to The Force, and no longer the real hero of the story.
Surviving Secret Jedi end up removing the importance of that entire line of thought, because it means that it didn't have to be Luke, Obi-Wan's exile was for nothing, and the "last hope" is yet another example of Yoda being wrong.
Granted, I also have this same problem with non-Sith Dark Side traditions, as well.
The Emperor's purge was supposed to be really good. As much as he wanted the Jedi out of the way, he's not the kind to let potential rival traditions stick around and cause trouble further down the line. Palpatine is ruthless and cruel enough to wipe them all out to the last, just like the Jedi, in order to make sure there are no threats to his power.
I agree. I liked the idea of West end games that you could have the occasional failed jedi and the apprentice... but the point was that there was nobody left of consequence. just a few broken down old drunks who couldn't do anything. The Rebels crew?? They are of consequence. They have done SERIOUS damage to the empire and Vader's authority using lightsabers and the force...
If they are around and a part of the Rebels... then why was Obi-wan 'Her only hope'? It falls apart. Vader believed the Jedi to have been wiped out and personally exterminated most of them....
hey, you and jemstone can enjoy the star wars version of the ideon movie all you want, but I strongly doubt the series is going to go in that direction.
thejeff |
jemstone wrote:I know I've said this before, and I know a lot of people love their Secret Jedi, but I sincerely hope that all the non-Movie Jedi are wiped out to the last by the time they get to the events of ANH. Even if that means all the members of Rebels end up staring into the sky at Alderaan as a new moon rises over the horizon.
Disagree with me all you want, but if there are all these Secret Jedi running around out there, the entire Skywalker Legacy story arc is rendered null and void, unimportant, and more or less meaningless. It loses its impact and its importance, because it means that Luke is realistically no longer the "last hope" of the Jedi, no longer the true method of bringing balance to The Force, and no longer the real hero of the story.
Surviving Secret Jedi end up removing the importance of that entire line of thought, because it means that it didn't have to be Luke, Obi-Wan's exile was for nothing, and the "last hope" is yet another example of Yoda being wrong.
Granted, I also have this same problem with non-Sith Dark Side traditions, as well.
The Emperor's purge was supposed to be really good. As much as he wanted the Jedi out of the way, he's not the kind to let potential rival traditions stick around and cause trouble further down the line. Palpatine is ruthless and cruel enough to wipe them all out to the last, just like the Jedi, in order to make sure there are no threats to his power.
I must disagree.
It is a big galaxy. And Yoda and Obi-Wan are mortal and not infallible.
It's one thing if there are a few other hidden holdouts - like Yoda and Obi-Wan themselves. Or unknown, unsuspected Force traditions out on the Rim. Another if there are still groups of Jedi/Force users actively fighting the Empire or just sort of hanging out and doing stuff in the Empire.
Kryzbyn |
Belabras |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The first rule of Secret Jedi club is that you don't talk about Secret Jedi.
Which is to say, I don't have a problem with Obi-Wan lying to Luke about yet another thing to protect the other force users in the rebellion incase something happens to young Skywalker (like his dad turning him to the dark side.) Yoda didn't seem to have any problem backing up Kenobi's lies either.
thejeff |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The first rule of Secret Jedi club is that you don't talk about Secret Jedi.
Which is to say, I don't have a problem with Obi-Wan lying to Luke about yet another thing to protect the other force users in the rebellion incase something happens to young Skywalker (like his dad turning him to the dark side.) Yoda didn't seem to have any problem backing up Kenobi's lies either.
But why are they pinning all their hopes on this untrained farm boy when they've got Jedi running around all over the place?
And why does the Rebellion also seem to have no idea about other Jedi - or Jedi at all really?At some point it's also the writers lying to the audience more than it's Yoda & Kenobi lying to Luke. Or would be, except that they weren't lying when the original movies were made. No one planned on surviving Jedi & weird Force users all over the place. It's all awkwardly worked in retcons.
Imbicatus |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
baron arem heshvaun wrote:The TIE Defender is now canon (again). I can die happy.Actually it has been confirmed that it IS the Ghost we see in Rogue One.
Best starfighter ever. Those are a joy to fight in, one of my fondest memories from any video game is destroying a traitor star destroyer single-handedly from the cockpit of a tie defender.
Belabras |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Belabras wrote:The first rule of Secret Jedi club is that you don't talk about Secret Jedi.
Which is to say, I don't have a problem with Obi-Wan lying to Luke about yet another thing to protect the other force users in the rebellion incase something happens to young Skywalker (like his dad turning him to the dark side.) Yoda didn't seem to have any problem backing up Kenobi's lies either.
But why are they pinning all their hopes on this untrained farm boy when they've got Jedi running around all over the place?
And why does the Rebellion also seem to have no idea about other Jedi - or Jedi at all really?At some point it's also the writers lying to the audience more than it's Yoda & Kenobi lying to Luke. Or would be, except that they weren't lying when the original movies were made. No one planned on surviving Jedi & weird Force users all over the place. It's all awkwardly worked in retcons.
You can certainly lay the blame on the writing if you like. That is a valid argument.
In canon though:
Again I would say that the Rebellion doesn't talk about force users because they don't want to lose a powerful weapon. The Empire has already shown it is very capable of hunting down Jedi. Loose lips sink force users.
As to why Obi-Wan and Yoda are pinning their hopes on Luke, I think the answer to that is Vader. Darth Vader is a engine of destruction that has effectively hunted down the last of the Jedi and who cuts through rebel forces like a hot knife through butter (thanks for that scene Rogue One!). Training up someone who can defeat that guy isn't a viable plan. So they don't. Instead they tool up Luke with some basic training and lies about who killed his father and sent him to cripple Vader. And it works. A schism begins to form between Vader and the Emperor over what to do about Luke, vast resources are re-tasked by Vader to track Luke down, and when confronted with his kid Vader does everything he can to subdue Luke without killing him. Which brings us finally to Return of the Jedi, where Yoda and Obi-Wan's plan finally pays off. Unwilling to kill his kid, Vader throws the fight, and rather than see Luke tortured by the Emperor, he does yet another heel turn. Jedi success and they didn't even have to tap their back up Skywalker kid to do it.
littlediegito |
Belabras wrote:The first rule of Secret Jedi club is that you don't talk about Secret Jedi.
Which is to say, I don't have a problem with Obi-Wan lying to Luke about yet another thing to protect the other force users in the rebellion incase something happens to young Skywalker (like his dad turning him to the dark side.) Yoda didn't seem to have any problem backing up Kenobi's lies either.
But why are they pinning all their hopes on this untrained farm boy when they've got Jedi running around all over the place?
And why does the Rebellion also seem to have no idea about other Jedi - or Jedi at all really?At some point it's also the writers lying to the audience more than it's Yoda & Kenobi lying to Luke. Or would be, except that they weren't lying when the original movies were made. No one planned on surviving Jedi & weird Force users all over the place. It's all awkwardly worked in retcons.
Because those Jedi would face Vader and the Emperor and die. Just like all the other Jedi. Luke has a chance to do what he does end up doing, making Vader think about what he is doing and reconsider. He can turn Vader back.
EDIT: What Belabrus said.
thejeff |
thejeff wrote:Belabras wrote:The first rule of Secret Jedi club is that you don't talk about Secret Jedi.
Which is to say, I don't have a problem with Obi-Wan lying to Luke about yet another thing to protect the other force users in the rebellion incase something happens to young Skywalker (like his dad turning him to the dark side.) Yoda didn't seem to have any problem backing up Kenobi's lies either.
But why are they pinning all their hopes on this untrained farm boy when they've got Jedi running around all over the place?
And why does the Rebellion also seem to have no idea about other Jedi - or Jedi at all really?At some point it's also the writers lying to the audience more than it's Yoda & Kenobi lying to Luke. Or would be, except that they weren't lying when the original movies were made. No one planned on surviving Jedi & weird Force users all over the place. It's all awkwardly worked in retcons.
You can certainly lay the blame on the writing if you like. That is a valid argument.
In canon though:
Again I would say that the Rebellion doesn't talk about force users because they don't want to lose a powerful weapon. The Empire has already shown it is very capable of hunting down Jedi. Loose lips sink force users.As to why Obi-Wan and Yoda are pinning their hopes on Luke, I think the answer to that is Vader. Darth Vader is a engine of destruction that has effectively hunted down the last of the Jedi and who cuts through rebel forces like a hot knife through butter (thanks for that scene Rogue One!). Training up someone who can defeat that guy isn't a viable plan. So they don't. Instead they tool up Luke with some basic training and lies about who killed his father and sent him to cripple Vader. And it works. A schism begins to form between Vader and the Emperor over what to do about Luke, vast resources are re-tasked by Vader to track Luke down, and when confronted with his kid Vader does everything he can to subdue Luke without killing him. Which...
Or bring in any of their army of other trained Jedi/Force users to help at any of these critical moments for the Rebellion.
Mind you, I'm not overly familiar with current canon outside the movies. Not sure exactly what Force users they have access to or what they're doing.
Still, while that may make sense based on current canon, it's still all retcon. As of the original trilogy, Luke was it. There was no plan to hide the rest of their Force users while using Luke to distract Vader. None of that existed.
Belabras |
I'll admit I'm partial to this interpretation also because it paints an interesting picture of Obi-Wan. When his former friend (whom he so thoroughly defeated) turns out not to have died from lava and exposure and starts wrecking everything that he fought for years in the Clone Wars to protect, Obi-Wan doesn't try to take on the Empire directly. Instead he starts a long game to turn Anakin's own kid into a weapon against him. When the time comes he gains Luke's trust and becomes a mentor and father figure to the boy, then confronts Vader. Knowing he can't defeat cyborg-Anakin and an entire Deathstar full of troops, he instead makes certain that Luke is watching before letting Vader strike him down. And because Obi-Wan has learned how to become a force ghost, he then gets to watch as it dawns on Anakin that not only did Obi-Wan know about Luke and keep it hidden for 20 years, Kenobi then arranged events such that once Anakin finds out that Luke is his son he has already become the embodiment of evil to Luke.
Obi-Wan never kills Anakin. He just takes all his limbs, his health, and his children from him. He makes Anakin's life a living hell.
Freehold DM |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Freehold DM wrote:distracts the Y-Wing pilot with a McRibKryzbyn wrote:sets y wing ion Cannon turret to target incoming fightersImperial engineering at it's finest. I wish they'd had them in SWG.
Then my experience would have been complete.
crashes the instant MCRIB comes up on sensors
baron arem heshvaun |
baron arem heshvaun wrote:And you do hear General Syndulla (either Hera or her dad) being paged during one of the Yavin 4 base scenes.Actually it has been confirmed that it IS the Ghost we see in Rogue One.
Also confirmed to be Hera in that scene, the same one where you see Chopper at the base.
The voice actress for Hera is also heard checking in as the Rebels arrive at the Battle of Scarif.
archmagi1 |
We also need to remember that neither Kanan or Ezra are Jedi. Yes I know its semantics, but Kanan is still a Padawan, a middle aged Padawan yes, but if he weren't in hiding his braid would be down to the ground by now. Ezra is technically best described as a Sith Apprentice more so than even a Padawan if we adhere to strict structure. Maul, a former Sith Lord / Rule of 2 member, has spent *some* time actually training Ezra's force power, but nowhere on the light-side has a full fledged Jedi provided any real training. Ezra has had some help from 2 padawans (Ahsoka never became a full Jedi either, mind you). So any actual statements regarding the lack of Jedi for the Rebel Alliance is pretty sound. A few surviving Padawans and crudely trained force adepts sure, but no Jedi.
Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti |
We also need to remember that neither Kanan or Ezra are Jedi. Yes I know its semantics, but Kanan is still a Padawan, a middle aged Padawan yes, but if he weren't in hiding his braid would be down to the ground by now. Ezra is technically best described as a Sith Apprentice more so than even a Padawan if we adhere to strict structure. Maul, a former Sith Lord / Rule of 2 member, has spent *some* time actually training Ezra's force power, but nowhere on the light-side has a full fledged Jedi provided any real training. Ezra has had some help from 2 padawans (Ahsoka never became a full Jedi either, mind you). So any actual statements regarding the lack of Jedi for the Rebel Alliance is pretty sound. A few surviving Padawans and crudely trained force adepts sure, but no Jedi.
No, Kanan was knighted last season.
archmagi1 |
archmagi1 wrote:We also need to remember that neither Kanan or Ezra are Jedi. Yes I know its semantics, but Kanan is still a Padawan, a middle aged Padawan yes, but if he weren't in hiding his braid would be down to the ground by now. Ezra is technically best described as a Sith Apprentice more so than even a Padawan if we adhere to strict structure. Maul, a former Sith Lord / Rule of 2 member, has spent *some* time actually training Ezra's force power, but nowhere on the light-side has a full fledged Jedi provided any real training. Ezra has had some help from 2 padawans (Ahsoka never became a full Jedi either, mind you). So any actual statements regarding the lack of Jedi for the Rebel Alliance is pretty sound. A few surviving Padawans and crudely trained force adepts sure, but no Jedi.No, Kanan was knighted last season.
Already playing semantics here, so I'm gonna disagree and say materially solid force ghosts don't count.
jemstone |
Quibbling over semantics doesn't do anything but distract from the argument being made, which is:
At the time of the original film, all of the other Jedi but Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader were dead.
Disagree all you want, but the story has always been about the Skywalker legacy and the redemption of Anakin Skywalker by his son - the last Jedi - Luke.
You can (rightly... sort of...) claim that Bail Organa wasn't just sending the Death Star Plans to Obi-Wan, he was also sending one of the only two viable Jedi candidates in the Galaxy to be trained by the last surviving Knight, now that we've seen the events of Rogue One, but that still doesn't allow for the whole Secret Jedi thing.
The Secret Jedi are all retcons and shoe-horns, and we all know it. We don't have to agree on the validity. It's not life threatening. I'm just saying that I think it vastly cheapens the story and changes the Campbellian origins of the trilogy by removing the Hero's Journey from the sole domain of the Skywalkers in the saga. You don't have to like Lucas' original vision, but the fact remains, that was his story. That. Right there. Jedi dead. Luke = Hero. Galaxy saved.
Oh, and I have been educated about Mr. Filoni's statements about The Ghost and Hera in Rogue One offline, and was actually coming here to state my newfound knowledge. I had read a statement from the FX team on Rogue One saying "Yeah, that was an homage, it meant nothing," and assumed it was the same across the board. I had believed that and the reference to General Syndulla over the PA to be cool little easter eggs, not actual references.
But back to Secret Jedi.
Don't get me wrong. I think a lot of their stories are cool. But they're not the core Star Wars story. For the core Star Wars story to make any kind of sense, for the necessity of Luke As Hero, the Jedi must be dead. All of them.
Arguing semantics over whether or not Kanaan is a Knight or Ezra is a Sith or he's really Snoke or whatever is all fine and good - but it detracts from the story of a single light rising up out of the darkness to cast down the all-oppressing evil. If all those other lights were out there, why the heck weren't they fighting in the Rebellion?
Retcons are all fine and good for Side Stories (like, why weren't there any other K2 series droids in any other Star Wars film if they're so prevalent in Rogue One?), but when you try to put them into the main continuity, there are always problems.
Better, I think, to go to the writers of your side story and say "Okay, everyone has to die before A New Hope... make it awesome."
Freehold: Save me from going to IMDB. Ideon movie?
archmagi1 |
I wish they would branch out of the empire era in tv though. Rebels is nice but it would be better if they had another time jump to post Jedi (film) era. We have had only a few books in that time before TFA and the Rebels crew fighting imperial remnants is a much more compelling story for me than more empire era filler.
thejeff |
I wish they would branch out of the empire era in tv though. Rebels is nice but it would be better if they had another time jump to post Jedi (film) era. We have had only a few books in that time before TFA and the Rebels crew fighting imperial remnants is a much more compelling story for me than more empire era filler.
There's still a lot of mystery over what happened in between. I bet they hold off on that era until the 3 main movies are complete - then go back in and fill in some of the details.
Imbicatus |
Quibbling over semantics doesn't do anything but distract from the argument being made, which is:
At the time of the original film, all of the other Jedi but Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader were dead.
Except Yoda. And any other Jedi that may be introduced in the canon. The thing is, the idea that all Jedi but Obi-wan and Vader are dead is an assumption. Order 66 was very effective but there were survivors. Other Jedi being alive is not detracting from the original trilogy, because being alive doesn't mean that they are a threat to the empire, or that the skywalkers aren't Obi-wan and Yoda's last hope.
thejeff |
jemstone wrote:Except Yoda. And any other Jedi that may be introduced in the canon. The thing is, the idea that all Jedi but Obi-wan and Vader are dead is an assumption. Order 66 was very effective but there were survivors. Other Jedi being alive is not detracting from the original trilogy, because being alive doesn't mean that they are a threat to the empire, or that the skywalkers aren't Obi-wan and Yoda's last hope.Quibbling over semantics doesn't do anything but distract from the argument being made, which is:
At the time of the original film, all of the other Jedi but Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader were dead.
Now I'm envisioning dozens of Jedi coming out of hiding after the fall of the Empire going "Good job, kid. We'll take over now."
Freehold DM |
Quibbling over semantics doesn't do anything but distract from the argument being made, which is:
At the time of the original film, all of the other Jedi but Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader were dead.
Disagree all you want, but the story has always been about the Skywalker legacy and the redemption of Anakin Skywalker by his son - the last Jedi - Luke.
You can (rightly... sort of...) claim that Bail Organa wasn't just sending the Death Star Plans to Obi-Wan, he was also sending one of the only two viable Jedi candidates in the Galaxy to be trained by the last surviving Knight, now that we've seen the events of Rogue One, but that still doesn't allow for the whole Secret Jedi thing.
The Secret Jedi are all retcons and shoe-horns, and we all know it. We don't have to agree on the validity. It's not life threatening. I'm just saying that I think it vastly cheapens the story and changes the Campbellian origins of the trilogy by removing the Hero's Journey from the sole domain of the Skywalkers in the saga. You don't have to like Lucas' original vision, but the fact remains, that was his story. That. Right there. Jedi dead. Luke = Hero. Galaxy saved.
Oh, and I have been educated about Mr. Filoni's statements about The Ghost and Hera in Rogue One offline, and was actually coming here to state my newfound knowledge. I had read a statement from the FX team on Rogue One saying "Yeah, that was an homage, it meant nothing," and assumed it was the same across the board. I had believed that and the reference to General Syndulla over the PA to be cool little easter eggs, not actual references.
But back to Secret Jedi.
Don't get me wrong. I think a lot of their stories are cool. But they're not the core Star Wars story. For the core Star Wars story to make any kind of sense, for the necessity of Luke As Hero, the Jedi must be dead. All of them.
Arguing semantics over whether or not Kanaan is a Knight or Ezra is a Sith or he's really Snoke or whatever is all fine and good - but it...
if you really feel this way then... Why are you watching the show, much less posting in this thread? I know at least two serious star wars fans considerably older than myself who refuse to watch the show for these reasons.