Animal Companion Stacking and differing Animal Choice lists / unique Class Abilities


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

OK, I am having trouble resolving both the RAW, previous Paizo comments, and the most recent FAQ.

The question is, how does it work when different Animal Companion (and/or Mount) Classes have differing requirements for animal choices?
Related to that is how Class-specific abilities work in that context, e.g. Druid Companion or Cavalier or Paladin Mount abilities,
if you are forced to select one ability to use and only use it's unique abilities, or if the different Companion abilities somehow "crosspollinate".

Core Rulebook, Druid Nature Bond:Companion wrote:
If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion.

This is the RAW basis for the topic.

Note that it is only talking about mutual stacking for scaling, it doesn't enable anything like 'double dipping' or 'cross pollinating' unique class abilities like from Cavalier or Paladin Mount. You are not using both Companion class abilities at the same time with one Companion, you are using just one version but benefiting from stacking for scaling purposes. So a Druid/Cavalier either chooses full animal type access + Share Spell OR Mount with No ACP Ride, free Armor Proficiency and Combat Training. Likewise for Paladin combos.

But then we have a FAQ purportedly for Cavalier (and also mentioning Ranger, but not Paladin or other means to gain a Companion) stating:

Quote:

Cavalier: Do animal companion levels from the druid class stack with cavalier mount levels?

If the animal is on the cavalier mount list and on the list of animal companions for your other class, your cavalier and druid levels stack to determine the animal's abilities.
If the animal is not on the cavalier mount list, the druid levels do not stack and you must have different animals (one an animal companion, one a cavalier mount). (...)
(Note that the design team discourages players from having more than one companion creature at a time, as those creatures tend to be much weaker than a single creature affected by these stacking rules, and add to the bookkeeping for playing that character.)

How is that possibly derived from RAW?

The Druid wording makes no mention of the animal needing to be selectable by both Companion abilities in order for them to stack for scaling purposes.
I suppose one could introduce some ambiguity by claiming that Cavalier's "This mount functions as a druid's animal companion" doesn't mean it counts as an Animal Companion for stacking purposes, but that isn't dependent on animal type... so if that is the case, then they would still not stack even if you select a Horse/Camel.

IMHO, the FAQ answer makes more sense if you understand the context to be: "Can you have a MOUNT using the full Druid companion list?"
By RAW, you can say "no" to that, because the Mount ability is itself limited to it's own choices. If you want the full Druid list, then you must be using the Druid Companion ability. That means that in the Druid/Cavalier case, you would be choosing between a Druid Companion with full animal types and Share Spell OR a Cavalier Mount with limited animal choices but with ACP-less Ride checks and free Combat Training and Armor Proficiency... But EITHER option should still benefit from stacking for purposes of scaling Companion stats/abilities (based on RAW of Druid Companion, which doesn't place any restrictions on that), they just miss out on the other classes' unique abilities.

I think the FAQ isn't quite recognizing that distinction in RAW, between the stacking for narrow purpose of scaling stats/abilities, and the issue of unique/mutually exclusive class abilities. It doesn't really address that latter issue at all, which STILL EXISTS even IF you choose an animal that is on both class' lists: Would said animal benefit from BOTH Druid Share Spell AND Mount specific abilities? By RAW, they don't, but the FAQ is already going against the RAW.

I feel like both aspects of the issue are relevant, and recognizing the non-"crosspollinating" aspect in terms of unique abilities opens the door to the likewise recognition of the clear RAW re: stacking for ability/stat scaling without any caveats about the animal being mutually selectable by both sources.

If Paizo wishes to apply some additional restriction to the RAW that would result in non-stacking Animal Companions and thus, two separate companions for the same character, I think some further clarification is due:

  • Would you in fact have the CHOICE of stacking them, if the animal types are compatable, i.e. could you have two Horses?
    It would seem strange to have two Companions, a Horse and a Tiger, but when the Tiger dies you may not replace it with a Horse (like any other Druid could).
  • In that case, would the remaining Horse Mount instantly get boosted in power upon the Tiger's death? Or is the Druid ritual needed to boost the Cavalier Mount?
  • Would you have the choice of HOW MUCH to stack, i.e. allocate X levels to the other class (if compatable animal) but keep Y levels for the second Companion?

Those questions aren't clear because the FAQ is deviating from the RAW so we have no means to answer them.

Sczarni

Your post is way too long to ever possibly be FAQ'd. I'll just give you a couple examples to explain it all:

PC takes 5 levels in Druid and 5 levels in Paladin (which isn't possible, but stick with me).

If said PC chooses a horse as their Divine Bond, and as their Animal Companion, she'll have a level 10 horse, since "horse" is on both lists.

If, however, she chose a bear as a Druid, she'd have two level 5 animals, because "bear" isn't on the Paladin list of choices.

It's that simple.


You're not explaining the answer to any question I have,
and your post seems rather disingenuous given I explicitly discuss Tiger+Horse vs. Stacked Horse scenarios in the original post.
Your own post also illustrates one of the problematic issues resulting from the FAQ:
Stating "level 10 horse" neglects the difference between a Horse Druid Animal Companion and a Horse Cavalier Mount.
The FAQ completely neglected to deal with the issue of unique class abilities outside the scope of 'vanilla' stat/ability scaling.

Incidentally, your Paladin example is interesting because Paladin DOESN'T present an exclusive list, just non-exclusive suggestions.
Paladin may not specifically enable other options, but nothing in it conflicts with other options being enabled via Druid.
I edited out mention of that from the main post because it's not central to the main issue, but it still stands for Paladins.

Sczarni

Yeah, I'm going to hide this thread.

Good luck!

Scarab Sages

If the rules say it stacks, it must stack for all aspects of it unless exceptions are noted, so the stacked horse would have everything from both class features.

This means a beastmaster ranger 1/Empyreal Knight Paladin 12 could be riding a celestial flying tyrannosaurus!

It would also have Int 6, share bond, etc.


Necro...

Horselord wrote:
If the rules say it stacks, it must stack for all aspects of it unless exceptions are noted,

Well, as a matter of fact, the rules state:

Quote:
her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion

So class abilities not directly affecting statistics/abilities OF THE COMPANION themself aren't implicated, e.g. ACP reduction when riding Cavalier Mount. Further, some statistic/ability modifier of the companion themself aren't tied to effective druid level (e.g. Paladin Mount INT), so should not be implicated by "effective druid levels stack for purposes of determining statistics and abilities of the companion".

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