Goblin Squad Member
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Oh wait we can't just kill them huh? I guess we're going to have to figure out something else to do with them.
Reputation is meant to reflect if the character generally contributes positively or negatively to the game. Nihimon has advocated a stance that if a character is 1.)hostile and 2.)low Reputation we should all don the robes of righteous Death and cleave the chaff from the wheat with an unrelenting fury. They're low Rep so they must have done something bad somewhere, right? (and hostile so our own Rep isn't lowered from instant face stabbing) Kill! Kill! Kill!
The component of that plan I see becoming problematic is that it's reflexive and automatic without any context, as if all Low Rep characters are one monolithic block of ooo-scary Boogeymen clad in shadows and newborn puppy tears whose single-minded goal is to ruin yet another online game.
There are some sociopaths who will be like that and it's fine with me if we run them out of PO. The River Kingdoms will also be getting flooded at some point with new characters who've been instilled with open pvp survival instincts that run counter to the PO game culture we'd prefer. They can get low rep before someone explains enough of the game to them and the way they need to modify their expectations to be successful in this game. Maybe that player is relieved to shed the hyper-aggressive pvp demeanor but then here comes a lynch mob determined to run him out of the game.
Leave the room to get dinner and your kid brother or 5-year-old spawn goes on an NPC killing streak or something. Not only do you have to regrind your Rep but along comes this homicidal freak and his friends in green hats shouting something about purges and quotes and chasing him all over the Seven Hexes trying to chain kill him for what, the low Rep bar they can see?
There will be some people we just don't want in PO. There will be a lot of people who initially come in acting like idiots but can be reformed into beneficial players, but not if they get labeled kill-on-sight (KOS) and from that view all the high Reps as sadistic self-righteous jerks who they don't want to associate with anyway.
There will be SO MANY kinds of low rep players and so many possibilities of what they could be to the game six weeks from the time you encounter them. Here are my questions for discussion:
Should we instantly make the game so unbearable to anyone who dips into each individual's differing personal estimation of "low" Reputation that they just don't want to be there anymore or should we try to salvage them into beneficial participants of the community? Is Kill! Kill! Kill! a good way for PO supporters to refine the best of the possibilities from those wayward players?
Truth resists simplicity.
I think those questions resist simplistic answers too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Reputation is meant to reflect if the character generally contributes positively or negatively to the game. Nihimon has advocated a stance that if a character is 1.)hostile and 2.)low Reputation we should all don the robes of righteous Death and cleave the chaff from the wheat with an unrelenting fury. They're low Rep so they must have done something bad somewhere, right?
If they are low rep (Where are we setting the mark? -2500? -5000?), then that character has a long, consistent record of doing negative actions. They've effectively proven they desire to PvP regardless of others' statuses. Their low rep is telling us they want to be PvP content.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh wait we can't just kill them huh?
I think that area's still TBD. Note that no one from Goblinworks ever posted any opinion pro or con in Please Let Us Make Low Reputation Characters Our Content. I continue to hope that part of the "consequence" of being Low Reputation is that you really are "other people's content".
Maybe that player is relieved to shed the hyper-aggressive pvp demeanor but then here comes a lynch mob determined to run him out of the game.
If he's trying to change his ways, why is he Hostile to me?
Do you think the majority of folks I encounter who are Hostile to me and Low Reputation are really just good guys who made a few mistakes and are trying to make amends? Do you even think I'm going to encounter one? I'm skeptical. And frankly, if I kill one or two folks who trashed their Reputation and are trying to make amends, then they should buck up and deal with it just like they almost certainly expected their victims to.
What stance would you prefer I take? See someone who is Hostile and Low Reputation and politely ask them their history? Spend 30 minutes searching the forums and asking all of my contacts if they've ever encountered this person before?
Leave the room to get dinner and your kid brother or 5-year-old spawn goes on an NPC killing streak or something.
It is utterly ridiculous to assume that the existence of a hypothetical case in which I might be wrong to kill that Character is grounds for me to politely baa and wait to be fleeced. I'm a Sheepdog. If I see a wolf, I will act. It's not my responsibility to uncover the life history of every Hostile Low Reputation character I see; it's their responsibility to make amends. That might just mean they spend some time in an NPC Settlement trying to recover from their misdeeds, or it might mean they need to roll a new Character.
I will not be held hostage to my virtues.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you're walking through a wilderness hex and some swarthy looking gentleman pulls his sword and charges at you screaming, that's all the moment you need to assess your situation.
If that swarthy gentleman who has a hostility flag (will we know why?) and low Reputation just walks past you with a "How do y'do?", is the appropriate response to automatically fireball him to death because he must have been newbie hunting? That's what Nihimon's plan was arguing.
I'm not trying to tell GW or the EE playerbase what the "right way" to deal with low Reps is because I haven't even made up my mind on details. I'm just attempting to survey the opinions of anyone who cares enough to post in the forums about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If that swarthy gentleman who has a hostility flag (will we know why?) and low Reputation just walks past you with a "How do y'do?", is the appropriate response to automatically fireball him to death because he must have been newbie hunting? That's what Nihimon's plan was arguing.
That's it, in a nutshell.
Why should I let some jerk who hunts newbies have a free pass just because he's smart enough not to attack me directly?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you're walking through a wilderness hex and some swarthy looking gentleman pulls his sword and charges at you screaming, that's all the moment you need to assess your situation.
If that swarthy gentleman who has a hostility flag (will we know why?) and low Reputation just walks past you with a "How do y'do?", is the appropriate response to automatically fireball him to death because he must have been newbie hunting? That's what Nihimon's plan was arguing.
I'm not trying to tell GW or the EE playerbase what the "right way" to deal with low Reps is because I haven't even made up my mind on details. I'm just attempting to survey the opinions of anyone who cares enough to post in the forums about it.
Yes:
We've been working with the concept of Hostility: anyone who is at war with your settlement, feuding with your company, in an enemy faction and set up for factional PvP, or flagged as Criminal or Heinous is displayed as Hostile to you. You can attack them without fear of Reputation loss and they are treated as an enemy. There is a hierarchy to Hostility, so if you are in the same group with someone from a company you are feuding with, that party member is treated as an ally as long as you are in the group together.
I think that as usual, the point is getting obfuscated. In what fairy tale universe do you expect to come upon someone that you see as "hostile" and they won't also present an immediate danger to you? Almost every one of these "hostile" characters will try and attack you if they think that they can win. Anyone that distinguishes "hostile" first and "low rep" second is doing most of these guys a favor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah, but Proxima is arguing that we don't KNOW that he was newbie hunting. What if he's guilty of a hundred other heinous crimes instead?
Ahh , well then we need a game mechanic that puts a 'joker' maniacal grin on newb killers so we will know what they did.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you're walking through a wilderness hex and some swarthy looking gentleman pulls his sword and charges at you screaming, that's all the moment you need to assess your situation.
If that swarthy gentleman who has a hostility flag (will we know why?) and low Reputation just walks past you with a "How do y'do?", is the appropriate response to automatically fireball him to death because he must have been newbie hunting? That's what Nihimon's plan was arguing.
I'm not trying to tell GW or the EE playerbase what the "right way" to deal with low Reps is because I haven't even made up my mind on details. I'm just attempting to survey the opinions of anyone who cares enough to post in the forums about it.
Proxima,
Unless they changed the mechanic since I last read about it, if he's flagged as "Hostile" to you, by definition he's just commited a hostile act against you or someone you have standing with. That's how one gets the "Hostile" flag.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When I ask will we know why they're hostile to you I mean will we have information that it's a settlement war, or they just corpse looted without rights. The difference is often meaningful when you think of risking your items and derailing other plans you might have been pursuing.
And no, I don't think a red name is cause to instantly attack 100% of the time for reasons I started to explain but won't elaborate on because it's not the topic. The question for this thread is:
- Should we instantly make the game so unbearable to anyone who dips into each individual's differing personal estimation of "low" Reputation that they just don't want to be there anymore or should we try some way to salvage them into beneficial participants of the community?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Proxima,
Unless they changed the mechanic since I last read about it, if he's flagged as "Hostile" to you, by definition he's just commited a hostile act against you or someone you have standing with. That's how one gets the "Hostile" flag.
It's possible that they could still be flagged Hostile after committing a hostile act against an unknown innocent.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't want sandbox to be synonymous with "mean". Part of the solution to ensuring a balance of anti-social behaviour and interesting competitive behaviour in an open world is to ensure that content overall is balanced. I would see a meaningful PVE component (nb: not theme park) as part of the mesh, rather than consider that you can rely largely (or solely) on rep mechanics or player policing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When I ask will we know why they're hostile to you I mean will we have information that it's a settlement war, or they just corpse looted without rights. The difference is often meaningful when you think of risking your items and derailing other plans you might have been pursuing.
And no, I don't think a red name is cause to instantly attack 100% of the time for reasons I started to explain but won't elaborate on because it's not the topic. The question for this thread is:
- Should we instantly make the game so unbearable to anyone who dips into each individual's differing personal estimation of "low" Reputation that they just don't want to be there anymore or should we try some way to salvage them into beneficial participants of the community?
I think that we should all have the freedom to do what we think is best in any given situation. As long as we except the consequences, whatever they are.
No one has said what their threshold of "low" is. For me, if I where to hunt low rep players, it would have to be obviously so low that they are clearly not playing very nice. For Nihimon it may or may not be different. Now first, they are flagged as "hostile", so if I am in my PVP toon they are more likely to get attacked whether they are "low rep" or not.
In most cases, if I see them as "hostile" they will see me the same and I will want the advantage of "first combo".
"Low rep" reform candidates should not really be flagged as "hostile" to me unless it is faction, feud, war, or they are doing something naughty.
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Goblin Squad Member
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•Should we instantly make the game so unbearable to anyone who dips into each individual's differing personal estimation of "low" Reputation that they just don't want to be there anymore or should we try some way to salvage them into beneficial participants of the community?
We should do what we can to change them. If they are marked "hostile" and "low rep" kill them and then PM them and explain that "rep" that low is not ok with you and your group and probably some others. Then offer some advice as to how they can turn their rep around if they choose to.
Way before that though, it should be clear to all players what causes rep loss and when, as well as the effects, and how to manage it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Should we instantly make the game so unbearable to anyone who dips into each individual's differing personal estimation of "low" Reputation that they just don't want to be there anymore or should we try to salvage them into beneficial participants of the community? Is Kill! Kill! Kill! a good way for PO supporters to refine the best of the possibilities from those wayward players?
The first step in their "salvation" is acknowledging that what they've been doing is wrong. The primary means of getting them to perform the necessary self-analysis to reach that conclusion is the feedback loop of being other people's content in a contest where they are consistently falling further and further behind with respect to relative power levels as they remain Low Reputation.
And Drakhan Valane is 100% correct, your premise is significantly flawed. You're taking a hypothetical, and acting as if all of our actions should be appropriate for that hypothetical. I am utterly convinced your hypothetical will be in actuality so rare as to not even warrant consideration, and yet I have given you honest and considered responses to it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, I haven't Spoken up yet on the whole Rep thing yet, but I think it's time. I hate it... Let me start by saying I have no intentions to "grief" but I think it is to hard to program a way to track a players actual and "meaningful" actions in a game. If a character is planning playing Evil (like myself), and I see some guy wondering through the woods, with maybe 1 or 2 more friends, and they are equip with some good looking gear, I'll call in more friends to take them, then split the gear. Although it may be considered a "random" killing, it was full of meaningful interaction. I'm an evil character who seen something I wanted, so I took it.
Another reason I don't like the Rep system; In all my Pathfinder games, and in RL, I've never had a bar above someones head to say "low rep, scum bag, ect". I had to depend on my OWN interactions with that person, or interactions from people I trust. THIS IS A SANDBOX GAME! DON'T DEPEND ON THE GAME TO DO WORK WE COULD DO!
Found that person who is constantly random killing lowbies for no other reason then to ruin there play? or puts up a ridiculous SAD that not even the richest of Merchants could pay? THEN NETWORK IT! Let your friends, Company, Settlement know! Let your Alliance, your neighbors knows! THEN make there existence in your land a living hell! But don't let the fact that for whatever reason the game decides they are "low rep", decide your opinion of them!
I think that's all the rep system is, the games OPINION of the player. Something to maybe take into account, but not base your decision on the sole fact.
EDIT: I do not hate the system for how it works, but how it is being planned on being used.. I think we need to really put some thought into how we use the systems, and even more, TEST THEM OUT first.
EDIT2: sorry for the thread jack with this rant Proxima, it just kinda popped out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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FOr me, if you are flagged I have a reason to kill you, and that reason is that you are flagged and you have become a legitimate target.
I for one do not think that you should be able to see rep of characters, so unless you know for sure that "lord McCool" is low rep, you take a risk in engaging them, the only exception is perhaps if they are so low they end up at the free for all level.
Given what Ryan said low rep CE characters will have two consequences. The first is that they will have weaker characters than other people the second is that they will be a target for other folks. It seems to me that the intent is to make it so that if you go around ganking folks for the lulz you will end up becoming an open target for anyone, who can kill you without any penalty. The result I think is to see if its worth it to have a character like that vs playing by the rules.
Honestly I dont care what happens or how bad low rep characters have it, GW has made it clear that being low rep is where the griefers and jerks who dont use appropriate mechanics will be, and that low rep will be detrimental to a character.
So if you are so low rep that you have open pvp enabled on you, you have to just suck it up and deal with it, you got there due to your actions and now you have to deal with it. You can either try to turn around and engage in activities to raise your rep or start another character. So these players can reform their characters by taking actions that show they are trying.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Simply sharing information worked on my Freelancer server with a cap of 50 people logged in at a time. We got to know the trouble makers and hunted them down.
When you get 50,000 people online at the same time. Sharing information manually is a lost cause. Then you get what happens in EVE. "Since I don't know who's who, I'll just kill anyone who I don't recognize. Not blue shoot it!"
At that point, everyone is effectively chaotic evil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So if you are so low rep that you have open pvp enabled on you, you hav to just suck it up and deal with it, you got there due to your actions and now you have to deal with it. You can either try to turn around and engage in activities to raise your rep or start another character. So these players can reform their characters by taking actions that show they are trying.
I also agree with this on the other side of what I said earlier. If you are at a position the game thinks you should be a FFA target, you knew you were approaching that point and continued your actions, so you deal with the consequences. My main point in the previous post was talking about players with low rep, but not low enough to be at the FFA level.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When you get 50,000 people online at the same time. Sharing information manually is a lost cause. Then you get what happens in EVE. "Since I don't know who's who, I'll just kill anyone who I don't recognize. Not blue shoot it!"At that point, everyone is effectively chaotic evil.
If that's the way a certain settlement or Company wants to deal with people, let them. But they need to deal with the consequences, something EVE doesn't really have. People should get a warning (or have it be considered a CE act to kill them). Also that place will grow very slowly compared to surrounding settlements and possibly even get overrun
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Goblin Squad Member
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1) It is quite possible, even likely, that you will see characters marked as "hostile" when you've never seen that character before, and as such, who have never done anything to you directly. I believe that being low rep is not the same as being hostile.
2) It is my opinion that killing a low rep character who is not marked as hostile should bestow a rep hit on the killer if there are no other flags on that low rep character. I believe that low rep is not the same as criminal.
3) If low rep characters are KOS, how will they ever have the opportunity to accomplish actions to raise their rep?
4) Presuming that the "hostile" condition is reciprocal, are all hostile characters condemned to attack on sight?
5) It seems that a low rep character can kill a high rep character without rep hit if both characters are flagged hostile. Quid pro quo.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is all really silly. If someone does choose to hunt low rep characters as a "career choice" (extreme example leaving hostility out of it), I see little real difference in that, and any other. There are plenty of "roles" to play that someone will not like too much.
The penalties are low for killing them for a reason. They are supposed to be harried and content for others by design. If they were not, then the penalties would not be based on reputation at all. It is a means to an end. There are plenty of ways to maintain a decent reputation. Anyone that gets to the bottom 1/4 (of negative) or so will be there because of their own willful actions.
To think that some other characters will not take advantage of that is silly. Whether everyone thinks it is fair or not is irrelevant. As long as it remains as it has been detailed, Resistance is Futile.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1) It is quite possible, even likely, that you will see characters marked as "hostile" when you've never seen that character before, and as such, who have never done anything to you directly. I believe that being low rep is not the same as being hostile.
2) It is my opinion that killing a low rep character who is not marked as hostile should bestow a rep hit on the killer if there are no other flags on that low rep character. I believe that low rep is not the same as criminal.
3) If low rep characters are KOS, how will they ever have the opportunity to accomplish actions to raise their rep?
4) Presuming that the "hostile" condition is reciprocal, are all hostile characters condemned to attack on sight?
5) It seems that a low rep character can kill a high rep character without rep hit if both characters are flagged hostile. Quid pro quo.
This is balanced
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is balanced1) It is quite possible, even likely, that you will see characters marked as "hostile" when you've never seen that character before, and as such, who have never done anything to you directly. I believe that being low rep is not the same as being hostile.
2) It is my opinion that killing a low rep character who is not marked as hostile should bestow a rep hit on the killer if there are no other flags on that low rep character. I believe that low rep is not the same as criminal.
3) If low rep characters are KOS, how will they ever have the opportunity to accomplish actions to raise their rep?
4) Presuming that the "hostile" condition is reciprocal, are all hostile characters condemned to attack on sight?
5) It seems that a low rep character can kill a high rep character without rep hit if both characters are flagged hostile. Quid pro quo.
I had believed that was the plan as described already.
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Goblin Squad Member
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4) Presuming that the "hostile" condition is reciprocal, are all hostile characters condemned to attack on sight?
I don't think #4 is a good presumption.
From the blog: There are a variety of cases that can make a player appear hostile to another player (e.g., faction membership, being at war, criminal flags, etc.). If you see a player that is hostile to you, there is no alignment or reputation penalty for attacking or killing that player. Often, hostility will be reciprocal (i.e., both players appear hostile to one another because their settlements are at war or their factions are enemies) but this is not required.
(bold added for highlighting)
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Goblin Squad Member
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3) If low rep characters are KOS, how will they ever have the opportunity to accomplish actions to raise their rep?
If Low Reputation automatically confers a Hostile flag, there will be a particular threshold at which that occurs. All the player has to do is stop losing Reputation long enough to get over that threshold. However, there's been no confirmation from the devs that there will be any Reputation value at which Characters are automatically flagged Hostile.
4) Presuming that the "hostile" condition is reciprocal, are all hostile characters condemned to attack on sight?
Not all Hostile states are reciprocal. Specifically, anyone flagged as a Criminal or Heinous will appear Hostile to you, but you won't appear Hostile to them. In those cases, you are free to attack them without consequence, but they are not free to attack you without consequence (unless of course they're already as low as they can go on the Chaotic Evil Low Reputation axes).
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Goblin Squad Member
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3) If low rep characters are KOS, how will they ever have the opportunity to accomplish actions to raise their rep?If Low Reputation automatically confers a Hostile flag, there will be a particular threshold at which that occurs. All the player has to do is stop losing Reputation long enough to get over that threshold. However, there's been no confirmation from the devs that there will be any Reputation value at which Characters are automatically flagged Hostile.
4) Presuming that the "hostile" condition is reciprocal, are all hostile characters condemned to attack on sight?Not all Hostile states are reciprocal. Specifically, anyone flagged as a Criminal or Heinous will appear Hostile to you, but you won't appear Hostile to them. In those cases, you are free to attack them without consequence, but they are not free to attack you without consequence (unless of course they're already as low as they can go on the Chaotic Evil Low Reputation axes).
I have no problem with this because the Criminals still have the ability to defend themselves without reputation loss. They can also use the SAD if they wish to continue their activities without losing reputation.
The way the system seems to be shaping up, there will be plenty of opportunities to play whatever play style (including my own) without it resulting in reputation loss. A player would really have to go out of their way to end up low rep, and it won't happen by accident.
However, they may be meaningful reasons to have low reputation, as part if one of those small cadres employed by a settlement to do those dirty deeds that are sometimes necessary. (See Ryan's post in other thread). These characters will likely be alts or unaffiliated with the settlement that they are serving.
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Goblin Squad Member
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However, they may be meaningful reasons to have low reputation, as part if one of those small cadres employed by a settlement to do those dirty deeds that are sometimes necessary. (See Ryan's post in other thread).
You mean this post?
Or it may require the Settlement to have a small cadre of unaffiliated characters on standby to do the dirty deeds when required. These might be characters of players unaffiliated with the Settlement who serve as a fast-reaction force that the Settlement can call on when necessary in exchange for some in-game benefit like mercenaries, or they might be alt characters of Settlement members that are kept idle to be switched to when needed.
That's the same post where Ryan went on to say:
This is clearly an area where the simple mechanic of the Reputation system is misaligned with meaningful player interaction. It's pretty damn meaningful to a Settlement to ensure it's security, but it's very hard mechanically to discriminate between someone who gets whacked for trespassing and someone who gets whacked for the lulz.
We'll see how Crowdforging goes, but personally I really hope there is a way to bring the Reputation System in-line with meaningful player interaction sooner rather than later.