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Could a PC be a Paladin of one god and a Cleric of another???
Or an Inquisitor of one god and an Oracle of another?
Or Inquisitor and Paladin?
Yes, right?
Paladins and Oracles don't have any RAW abilities drawn from specific deities, just general Divine powers. Whereas Clerics and Inquisitors have specific Domains and Alignment restrictions tied to a specific chosen deity.
So technically a Paladin of say, Iomedae, could also be a Cleric of Sarenrae because Clerics get Domains -- actual mechanics tied to a specific deity, as opposed to Paladins who just get Divine powers from a generic "their god."
Thus a Paladin's choice in deity is all Fluff (just has to be LG) but Clerics and Inquisitors choose because of Fluff and Crunch. And since a Paladin's choice is all about Fluff with no additional Crunch, the PC could have two deities, one for each Class.
How 'bout this:
Could a PC be an Inquisitor of one god and a Cleric of another?!?!
This seems much more unlikely but still, RAW seems to indicate, um, "Probably."
RAW:
So, one of the Domains HAS to be shared but does that really imply that the deity must be the same? Plenty of deities share Domains!
Generally speaking a cleric should be faithful to one deity regardless of other classes.
What is the purpose of a second deity? Is it just for fluff in the way that you are priest of one specific deity but reverence the rest of the pantheon as well?
Maybe it would help if you gave more specifics or what the outcome is. If a player wanted to do this so he could qualify for certain domains but then pick up other feats or traits that require a different deity I would probably say no to that.
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Lo and behold.
In His very own thread,
Can a character worship different gods (while respecting the alignment rule) and use these to qualify for different classes (base or Prestige).
For example, can a LG character be simultaneously a Paladin of Iomedae, an Inquisitor of Erastil, a Cleric of Abadar and a Mystery Cultist of Ragathiel ?
Depends on your GM.
I would not allow it, though, because devotion to one deity implies that you're following that deity's rules and ethos and all that, and if you're doing that with multiple deities, you're not following any one deity's teachings well enough to deserve to gain power from that deity.
If you want to worship, say, Erastil, Abadar, Iomedae, and Ragathiel, that's fine... but you have to worship them all more or less equally. That means you could be a paladin and inquisitor and even a mystery cultist... but you could not be a cleric.
I agree with Mr. Jacobs. Technically, it's within the scope of the rules to the extent that it is not forbidden that you could worship two deities for different divine caster classes. However, I would certainly never allow. Like James, I believe that the religiously devoted classes must devote so much time to one deity that they would never have time to devote to another without losing the connection the first. Also, I suspect that deities are a bit jealous of one another (even those on friendly terms) and would not stand to see their faithful cleric moonlighting as a inquisitor of another god.
Also, in my home games all religious based classes must choose a deity from whom they derive their power. And to derive any mechanical benefit from worship of a deity you must be within 1 step of the deity's alignment. So you couldn't worship Gorum enough to benefit from the Spiked Destoryer feat and be lawful good at the same time. You would need to be NN, CN, CE, CG because Gorum is CN.
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Thanks guys.
Well, "generally speaking," "technically, it's within the scope of the rules" and "depends on your (DM)" sure seem to indicate that a PC CAN have more than one deity.
Unless, perhaps, you speak specifically about the Cleric Class. The problem, however, with adjudicating it such is that no where (that I found) in the text for Cleric is there language stating a Cleric must choose a deity -- it's implied of course that a Cleric must choose a deity (for Domains and Channeling) and there is language that specifically deals with Clerics "of no particular deity" but there isn't any language that says a Cleric must choose a deity -- and thus no sentence, phrase or something where we can analyze the language.
Regarding specific issue, well, whether a Player is doing it for some cheesy, munchkin reason to gain access to something or for sincere Fluff, we'll always be able to come up with a plausible reason for this AND that deity.
My personal PC is one who was born in Varisia and raised to revere Desna (even has a Desna Trait) but who, as an adult discovers Iomedae and begins to follow Iomedae. The PC does not abandon Desna -- still reveres her and follows most Desnan day-to-day precepts. But as far as the paladin-fluff, let's go kill some demons! The two deities are NOT mutually exclusive.
I easily see this Cleric of Desna becoming a Paladin of Iomedae without losing anything from Desna.
What's really cool is that, were a DM to include an aspect in the campaign where the PC must choose (even briefly) a course of action supporting one deity to the exclusion of the other, the PC (whomever he chooses) must then seek an Atonement. That would be hellafun to play!
All in all, though, it seems as if there is NOTHING in RAW indicating that a PC can't have two deities.
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I believe that the religiously devoted classes must devote so much time to one deity that they would never have time to devote to another without losing the connection the first. Also, I suspect that deities are a bit jealous of one another
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.And generally I'd agree -- however -- that's why I came to this Forum where RAW is king. I'm looking for pure RAW.
I'm pretty damned sure I would never allow it in my game. (unless perhaps it was a Fighter of Desna and a Cleric of Iomedae, or something) But what does the RAW say?
...ok, my first inclination when reading the title was a cleric that worshiped some kind of dualistic pair of deities (its always twins, isn't it?) who have an agreement to take turns with their worshipers. Of course any ideas I have for these gods sounds like a pitch for a WACKY odd couple sitcom ("he likes everything clean and orderly, but she leaves the animal sacrifices all over the furniture!" *cue laugh tract*).
And the cleric would have to follow a different set of teaching just about every day (maybe even with some slight changes in abilities, like different channeling, or a different domain). Overall, I would like to imagine a frazzled and highstrung clergy for this religion.
Anyway, overall, outside of this kind of bizarre set up, I generally think that, if you are playing a class that has abilities tied to a specific deity, you need to worship them first and foremost. Sure, you can respect other deities (I'm pretty sure dwarves have a pantheon thing going on), but you should generally focus on one specifically. But it seems fine for classes like paladins, druids...maybe a mystery cultist depending on the celestial hierarchy (cleric on a big honcho, cultist of one of his servants)
No, I do not think there is anything that prevents it. The only thing I see is the indication that a cleric must select a deity and not deities. That seems to be the case through out the entry for cleric in the CRB and SRD.
I think that your desire to have the Cleric of Desna also be a Paladin of Iomedae is fine as long as it is just for fluff. Again, consult your DM as there seems to be a general inclination to not allow it.
But what does the RAW say?
RINGDINGDING ... sorry.
There's no RAW against it that I can find.
The closest I could find was:
"A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons."
And this implies that if you have a second god, but don't violate the first god's code of conduct, then you should be okay. By RAW.
The would god's would probably need to be pretty close in alignment or have spheres that weren't in conflict with each other, but I'd allow it.
Additionally, as Paladin abilities are dependant on following a code, ALL of their abilities are Deity dependant. Check out the codes for the core deities in Faiths of Purity and Faiths of Balance.
Looking in the Player's Handbook. While there are other parts of the Paladin description that mention gods, the Paladin Code is not one of them.
I'm confused a how you could be both a Cleric of Desna and a Paladin of Iomedae, since the Cleric side must be within one step of the deity (NG, CG, or CN), while the paladin must be LG.
I'm confused a how you could be both a Cleric of Desna and a Paladin of Iomedae, since the Cleric side must be within one step of the deity (NG, CG, or CN), while the paladin must be LG.
You bring up a really good point...
I'm confused a how you could be both a Cleric of Desna and a Paladin of Iomedae, since the Cleric side must be within one step of the deity (NG, CG, or CN), while the paladin must be LG.
That is a very good point for the OP's specific situation.
In any event, I want to expand on my original post here and say if it was unclear that there is no rule to my knowledge that would prevent you from worshipping different gods and receiving the benefits of doing so, but I personally would not allow such a thing to occur in any of my games as it does not agree with my view of how deities interact with and grant powers to their followers.
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I'm confused (on) how you could be both a Cleric of Desna and a Paladin of Iomedae, since the Cleric side must be within one step of the deity (NG, CG, or CN), while the paladin must be LG.
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Spectacular!
Thanks.
Okay, so it's official, my PC (assuming it's okay as per RAW) will be an Inquisitor of Desna -- with it's same Varisian backstory & Fluff) and later a Paladin of Iomedae after adventuring for a while and coming to feel the zeal of Iomedae.
It's a bit different mechanically to the Cleric I was originally thinking -- and a Desnan Inquisitor does sound kinda odd to me at first -- but thinking about the character's Fluff it still works and, more importantly, seems allowable with RAW.
I'm confused (on) how you could be both a Cleric of Desna and a Paladin of Iomedae, since the Cleric side must be within one step of the deity (NG, CG, or CN), while the paladin must be LG..
Spectacular!
Thanks.
Okay, so it's official, my PC (assuming it's okay as per RAW) will be an Inquisitor of Desna -- with it's same Varisian backstory & Fluff) and later a Paladin of Iomedae after adventuring for a while and coming to feel the zeal of Iomedae.
It's a bit different mechanically to the Cleric I was originally thinking -- and a Desnan Inquisitor does sound kinda odd to me at first -- but thinking about the character's Fluff it still works and, more importantly, seems allowable with RAW.
That would run into the same problem as the Cleric. An Inquisitor must still be of an alignment within one step of her god. Lawful good is a prohibited alignment for an Inquisitor of Desna.
You'll have to pick a NG or LN Diety if you also want to be a Paladin. Like a Cleric of Sarenrae or an Inquisitor of Abadar.
I could see this working only in serious corner cases, where the deities have significant overlap.
Now, the most extreme in-universe example of this is the Hellknight Order of the God-Claw, which follows five deities simultaneously. I wish I could find a explanation as to how being a cleric of the God-Claw actually works - I'm unclear as to whether you're supposed to pick one of the five and get spells from that one, or whether the concept of the God-Claw gets its own set of domains, or what.
Doing this with a character who follows say, Desna and Black Butterfly, could be possibly doable. I'm blanking on other pairings that would be similarly compatible, but I'm sure they exist.
Hmmm. On one hand, I'd be leery of the character possibly having 3 domains (or 2 domains and 2 blessings, with warpriest), but since they're multiclassing, they're not going to be very good with most of them.
Though there are a few, like luck domain, that don't scale with level and are immediately really strong.
This pretty much comes down to a case-by-case, talk-your-GM-into-it sort of situation.
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Additionally, as Paladin abilities are dependant on following a code, ALL of their abilities are Deity dependant. Check out the codes for the core deities in Faiths of Purity and Faiths of Balance.Looking in the Player's Handbook. While there are other parts of the Paladin description that mention gods, the Paladin Code is not one of them.I assume you are referring to the Core Rulebook, since Pathfinder doesn't have a Player's Handbook.
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Now, individual gods do have their own codes of conduct, and you can find them in the Faiths books I mentioned earlier. Presumably Irori, Apsu, Kurgess, Ragathiel and others also have a code, but theirs aren't printed in any material that I know of yet.
Violate the code of Sarenrae as a Paladin of Sarenrae, and you lose all abilities except proficiencies, just like the book says.
So quick question to understand this. Do the splat books trump the CRB? If I am a PFS player, and all I have is the CRB, there isn't anything in the CRB to prevent worshiping two dieties in this manner: alignment restrictions within tolorance. What if it's a combo between Erastil, Iomedae, or Torag of some sort, all LG.
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Thanks guys.
This really sucks; I really like the character concept, raised Desnan, learns of the Worldwound and begins a new Class as a Paladin championing Iomedae -- though still revering Desna.
But alas, it is not possible in this situation to have two gods (RAW // home DMs can overrule). Although other situations exist where one can have two gods.
Well, he could still revere Desna, but getting power from her is a whole 'nother animal.
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Yeah, that's possible, I guess. It's just that the Fluff background is that ever since childhood Desna sent him dreams and growing up, especially with some Desna-birthmark Trait or something I found, he knew Desna had some big plans for him -- so he became a Cleric (or Inquisitor) but after several levels of adventuring (tbd during a campaign) he would discover the Worldwound or somesuch other Hey-I-want-to-fight-for-Iomedae thing and start taking levels of Paladin -- WITHOUT losing anything from Desna.
I guess I'll have to go back to the drawing board.
(No biggie, I'm DMing now anyway with no forseeable future of running a PC.)
Huh, there IS a work-around. Check out the Heretic archetype for inquisitors.
With GM permission, that would let you pull off an inquisitor that's two steps removed from the regular deity, since a heretic can keep their powers under circumstances that would result in an ex-inquisitor otherwise.
That could conceivably let you pull off being a paladin of Iomedae while also being an inquisitor of Desna - you're way more devoted to law than the butterfly lady is comfortable with (she can't even grant [lawful] spells - too opposed to her own nature), but she's still got your back.
An alternate option would be to ditch paladin for a different divine class, like the upcoming warpriest class, and go with neutral good, putting your character within one step of both goddesses. Mainstream members of both faiths would almost certainly view you as bonkers, but if you're getting the spells and powers...
This character concept is practically begging for a custom-tailored PrC, though - some sort of Goddesses' Champion.
Are you really interested in the mechanics of Paladin? Or can you just be comfortable with the concept for being a Holy Crusader marching against the hordes of the Abyss?
Theres no reason your character couldn't be inspired by the Champions of another god (Paladins) to join the fight against all of Good's common foe, Evil.
A warpriest or cleric can be Paladin-like enough in my opinion without needing to get a different deity or the mechanical restricitons associated with the Paladin class. Unless of course, you're really only interested in worshipping another god...