Ultimate B.S. Artist Build?


Advice

51 to 89 of 89 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Well gender wasn't specified...

And also it is bluff, scams and the such, now if it where Diplomacy...


If you really wanted to use that spell to add on it you could I guess as some of the builds given have like a +14 disguise. Go in drag for that +2 and say "Why HELLO there, sailor".


Ok...so I'm actually going to use this monstrosity. You're probably going to say, "Why do this to yourself?/the party?" and "You won't last more than a few sessions". You're probably right, but I'll enjoy the ride while it lasts. This is 15 pt, two traits etc. and PRD only because my DM uses hero lab and he's not going to go out and buy 12 different books from all the sources that could be used. Also, can't take childlike as Kitsune turns to HUMAN not humanoid as I had initially misread it. I'm also not going to include items yet as that is still in discussion of what I'm going to get to start with:

Kitsune Archaeologist Bard 8
(took 8th for the rogue talent and get the +1 for the 1/2 bard level stuff)
Str 8, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 16 +3, Wis 10, Cha 19 +5
Gregarious (Kitsune), Rogue Talents: Coax Information & Rumormonger (if I'm allowed to take it otherwise maybe honeyed words or one thing like it for diplomacy/S.o.H/Sense Motive.)

Skill Focus (Disguise) - Prereq
Eldritch Heritage - Rakshasa

Bluff (deceiving): +25 = +4+8+3 +1 (Fast Talker) +2 (Deceitful) +3 (Skill Focus -Bluff) + 4 Kitsune favored class (racial I presume)

= +25 +2 Luck+1Fate's favored (Luck, Swift), +20 Glibness (Untyped, Standard), +5 Eldritch (?, Swift)
+2 Bestow Insight (Insight, Standard/reroll Free), +2 Heroism (Morale, Standard)
+2 Mom of Greatneess (Morale, Standard/activate Free)
…+2 Eagle's Splendor (Standard, Enhancement)

=+61

9th level: Synthesis Summoner = +9 (+8 Skilled (racial) and +2 Ability increase (untyped))
Feat: Voice of Sibyl = +1 feat
10th Level: Enchanter = +5 (+2 enhancement and +3 untyped? with viper)
+3 Bluff, +2 Deceitful, +2 Voice = +7
11th Level: Kitsune Trickster = +3 (add intelligence to bluff and a few things)
Feat: Iron Will (prereq)
12th Level - 20th: Master Spy (add +1 / level) = +9
+12 skill ranks
+2 ability score incrases
= +109 before items

If I can't take Synth Summoner I'd just move stuff up. Unless someone has a trick up their sleeve I didn't notice, this seems to be the best way using PRD only.

At some point like 13th I don't see how I could NOT pick up Taunt. Demoralizing the hell out of the enemy by trash talking like a Pro athlete while sitting back and using weenie spells on them is just too amusing of an opportunity to pass up.


Actually..For summoner it adds a racial bonus with skilled, but under Kitsune:

Bard: Add a +1/2 bonus on Bluff checks to lie and a +1/2 bonus on Diplomacy checks to gather information.

So I'm guessing these don't stack and the +4 from Kitsune is lost :/

Dark Archive

You're in luck! Racial bonuses stack!

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Bonus-Racial-


Ty. I don't know their source cited on that, but considering the whole picture of what's been presented, I'm going to say they do. I hope Hero Lab agrees with me since I don't have it to check.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Yes, they do stack.

Racial bonuses, dodge bonuses, circumstance bonuses (from different circumstances), and untyped bonuses all stack with themselves. That's the entire list of self-stacking bonuses.


I briefly played a Street Performer Bard, and they're pretty amazing with the BS:

* +1/2 your Bard level to Bluff (and Disguise, Sleight of Hand, and some applications of Diplomacy and Intimidate)
* Gladhand: as a standard action you can use Bluff to temporarily improve attitudes for 1 minute
* you can take 10 on Bluff and Disguise checks
* don a disguise as a standard action (at a -5 penalty)
* take 20 on a Bluff or Disguise check up to 3 times per day
* plus, as an indirect benefit, Hapless Performer gives you a Sanctuary effect for those rare moments when you can't talk your way out of a jam

I was sorely tempted to take 3 levels of Charlatan Rogue to pick up Coax Information or Honeyed Words, plus Rumormonger. Taking 20 on a Rumormonger check a few times a week = GM hates you forever.


I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned before. In terms of raw Bluff ability this is superior to Archaeologist Bard and it gives you access to some decent survival type stuff, but you lose the knowledge stuff, trapfinding and rogue talents. It's tough to say if this is worth the trade off, especially if I'm allowed to have rumormonger at 8th.


To put Street Performer into this mix: Based on what was used previously, swapping out the luck for +1/2 level bluff bonus = +29 base + 33 spells + 13 bluff item (14.4k) and then take 20 is a guaranteed roll of 95 (82 not counting items). Guaranteed +85 (+72) by taking 10 all the time. This is clearly the new winner.

Though you'd lose access to 2 rogue feats such as honey words (weigh this against being able to take 10: variability vs guaranteed average and a sure perfect roll 1/day). Gladhanding in a way replaces coax information. There's also good talents like black market or the other 2-roll abilities for slight of hand and diplomacy. Following proper rules and not getting rumormonger, Convincing Lie could have worked in a similar way and been a powerful tool.. Also you lose the trap finding stuff.

Archaeologist is definitely a better skill monkey with the knowledge, lore, luck (super versatile), and trapfinding, but I think Street Performer can likely assist more in combat with still having abilities and not losing performance. In the long run, he edges out in SoH and Bluff (assuming the attempt wasn't heavily reliant on stealth and disable device to get to it). So if you want to be a conniving little monster and somehow fail picking someone's pocket, you could probably convince them that they stole it from you! lol


6 people marked this as a favorite.

Ok this is the absurd plan I'm going with unless someone can beat it (using PRD):

Quote:

Kitsune Street Performer Bard 8

Str 8, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 16 +3, Wis 10, Cha 19 +5
Gregarious (Kitsune

Skill Focus (Disguise) - Prereq
Eldritch Heritage - Rakshasa

Bluff (deceiving): +29 = +4+8+3 +1 (Fast Talker) +2 (Deceitful) +3 (Skill Focus -Bluff) + 4 (Street performer) +4 Kitsune favored class

= +29 +20 Glibness (Untyped, Standard), +5 Eldritch (?, Swift)
+2 Bestow Insight (Insight, Standard/reroll Free), +2 Heroism (Morale, Standard)
+2 Mom of Greatneess (Morale, Standard/activate Free)
…+2 Eagle's Splendor (Standard, Enhancement)

=+62 Can take 10 for 72 or take 20 1/day for a roll of 82

9th level: Synthesis Summoner = +9 (+8 Skilled (racial) and +2 Ability increase (untyped))
Feat: Voice of Sibyl = +1 feat
10th Level: Enchanter = +5 (+2 enhancement and +3 untyped? with viper)
+3 Bluff, +2 Deceitful, +2 Voice = +7
11th Level: Kitsune Trickster = +3 (add intelligence to bluff and a few things)
Feat: Iron Will (prereq)
12th Level - 20th: Master Spy (add +1 / level) = +9
+12 skill ranks
+2 ability score increases

= +110 before items with take 10 for 120 or take 20 for 130


Today I discovered the Pageant of the Peacock masterpiece for bards. I don't think we have that in there yet, and it's a circumstance bonus so it should stack. Gross.


It's been mentioned a few times, but it's in a companion book not PRD. I avoid companion books b/c my DM uses herolab and has to buy books and I usually see the companion books as snowballing.


lol Now I feel dumb. I did a word search to see if it had been brought up already, but forgot we're on the second page.


Its ok, you gave me the idea to switch to Street Performer (which is far more appropriate for my concept) so +1 for you ;)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

What is the highest Sense Motive modifier of any published creature in Paizo Pathfinder literature?

I seriously doubt there is anything much higher than +60 or so. I suggest you look it up, because once they have NO HOPE of beating your bluff, any further investment is a complete waste of resources.


I think that's pretty obvious to begin with though.

Going above +40 pretty much rules out, what? Like 98% of creatures in the world? This serves no real purpose other than being the grandest Maestro of Bulls*** of all time on Golarion.

Btw: Oooh joy, another Player who's PC died is now an Inquisitor. I tried to steer him away from that idea toward the sorcerer which he was about to do, but OFC the DM convinced him to go with Inquisitor on gameday, knowing that it would spice things up with my character and likely c-block (character block, ofc) my character sometime in the future. Now I have to worry about Will saves and him trying to pry my brain, lol. Picking up a level of Synth Summ, Wizard, and Iron Will should help with that, though.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Dude, inquisitor detect lie save DCs are pathetic. You'll be fine.


Ok, he has really zero chance to detect lies through normal means, but:

Quote:
At 5th level, an inquisitor can discern lies, as per the spell, for a number of rounds per day equal to her inquisitor level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. Activating this ability is an immediate action.

That means he can at 8th level, 8 times/day immediately use that to make me roll against him with it likely being a DC 18 (4th level + Wis score + misc). I only have a will of +6. Had I known this was coming I would've given myself a Wis of 16, not an Int of 16. Fortunately, I picked up Eldritch:Rakshasa (Silver Tongue), so at 8th level, he'd have a DC 16 which means his DC is an 8.

So, with me winning by him failing on 7/20 numbers and me winning against his save on 9/20 numbers I (forgetting my probability math) have a 40% chance of succeeding against his Discern Lies, no? Those odds get worse if he does this over and over again.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
MattR1986 wrote:

Ok, he has really zero chance to detect lies through normal means, but:

Quote:
At 5th level, an inquisitor can discern lies, as per the spell, for a number of rounds per day equal to her inquisitor level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. Activating this ability is an immediate action.

That means he can at 8th level, 8 times/day immediately use that to make me roll against him with it likely being a DC 18 (4th level + Wis score + misc). I only have a will of +6. Had I known this was coming I would've given myself a Wis of 16, not an Int of 16. Fortunately, I picked up Eldritch:Rakshasa (Silver Tongue), so at 8th level, he'd have a DC 16 which means his DC is an 8.

So, with me winning by him failing on 7/20 numbers and me winning against his save on 9/20 numbers I (forgetting my probability math) have a 40% chance of succeeding against his Discern Lies, no? Those odds get worse if he does this over and over again.

Who says the DC is based off of wisdom? Spell-like abilities default to Charisma unless something says otherwise.

Also, he doesn't add his class level to the DC, just the level of the spell.

That means DC = 14 + ability mod. That's it. If he were to min/max his ability score and get a 30, that means the DC is only going to be 24 at high levels. That's good enough to detect the lies of people who likely aren't putting ranks into Bluff anyways.


Why are you constantly lying to your party? That game will only be fun for you. And even then, not for long.


Why are you planning to lie to your own team so often, anyway?

At any rate, have enough money for a Ring of Mind Shielding yet?

Failing that, how good is his will save?


Oh, touche. He's a 1/2 orc so, my guess is his Charisma is only maybe a 12 at best, so hopefully worse case DC 15. That means 12/20 and 7/20 is still only a 47.5% chance of succeeding though.

Would it be fair that since he sprung this last second specifically for me and my came in late in the session and never even used anything intelligence related, that I ask if I can reverse my 16 int and 10 wis for next game and going forward? I had weighed doing this before creation but didn't because it'd mean losing 24 skill points.

And my intention isn't to use this so I can team up with the BBEG and kill them for all their stuff. If, however, I want to keep some things from them I'd like to be able to do it.


And it would be safe to assume that at 8th level, his Will save is at least a +9


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It's never a good sign when your fellow players and GM plot against you.

It didn't end well for me either.


If you just want to keep some things a secret, just don't talk about them. Answer questions in round-about ways, use half-truths, metaphor, anything to avoid concrete answers to any questions. And if nobody is asking questions, don't bring it up.

When in doubt, have Misdirection up.

And if the Inquisitor ever calls you on some BS, you'll at least be able to bluff the rest of the party into thinking he's making stuff up. lol


It would be more for self-preservation or mischievous purposes, not nefarious ones.


Chris P. Bacon wrote:

If you just want to keep some things a secret, just don't talk about them. Answer questions in round-about ways, use half-truths, metaphor, anything to avoid concrete answers to any questions. And if nobody is asking questions, don't bring it up.

When in doubt, have Misdirection up.

And if the Inquisitor ever calls you on some BS, you'll at least be able to bluff the rest of the party into thinking he's making stuff up. lol

LOL! Oh Chris. You win again. I hadn't even considered making the rest of the party think he's lying. It would make sense since we're both new and one of that isn't me is a half-orc. It does, however, then put us at odds and that isn't my intent.

Also, since he can do it as an immediate action he could do it right after my responses so I'd always have to be evasive to him specifically. That comes off as a very suspicious.


Well, even more to the point, your bard probably won't even know that he can discern truth, nor how many times a day, nor how easily. So you'd have to basically be evasive with everyone, not knowing if any of them could use magic to detect your lies.

And that sounds exhausting.

I think the combination of casting misdirection daily (or buying a ring, ring being the better option), plus not giving them a reason to mistrust you to begin with is the key. Don't let the other player get away with metagaming: if he's going to pounce on lies that the player happens to know are false, he'd better be jumping on all sorts of things that his character has no way of knowing are true or false.

And, at the end of the day, he's an inquisitor: it's just what they do, and there's no shame in being caught red handed by one every now and then.


I've been in enough low places I'd probably be aware of Inquisitor types, especially since you are aware of failed targeted Will saves. How many times a day? Likely not.

I also realized that I think the math is off on what I was saying.

Ok so: Discern lies + Silver Tongue + Misdirection

-Discern Lies I'd think DC 16 at worst so that's 10 or 11/20
-Silver Tongue is going to be 7/20
-Misdirection would be DC 16. Worst case I can see is if he had base Will 6 + Wis 4 + Iron will is 3/20

However I don't have to succeed on each roll. All I need is ONE of those rolls to work, so...what's the right math for this? I think it has something to do with reversing something and taking half or something, but I can't remember at all.


I think you just take the reverse probability to determine success if I remember right: (1- (9/20 * 13/20 * 17/20) * 100 = ~75% chance of success if I'm doing the math right

Dark Archive

Ravingdork wrote:

It's never a good sign when your fellow players and GM plot against you.

It didn't end well for me either.

Wow... you were brutalised in that thread RD, I'm amazed at your perseverance and the even temper of your responses given the baiting and insults.

That said, yes, if you're at all thinking of bluffing, lying to, etc the party members Matt then talk to them out of game FIRST. Tell them you want to make a sneaky & mischievous character who might lie and play tricks about small things, but nothing that could remotely harm the other characters or steal anything of value from them. If they're cool then great, you have a fun character who can add a lot of flavour, if they would rather not deal with that then restrict your lies to npcs and play straight with the other players or things may turn out badly.


I've played with this group long enough that I don't think it will be a problem. I may screw with them, but like I said I'm not out to get them killed or completely derail the game. I don't plan on disclosing it at the moment just to avoid intentional or unintentional metagaming, which I see as probable from 3 of 4 players.

It would be way too D&D cliche for me to only lie to enemies and we're perfect, never keep secrets, buddy-buddy within the group.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I wonder if any of these Bluff builds could effectively use the Betraying Blow feat?


You had me until it said this extra damage cannot exceed your hit dice. Otherwise that thing could be vicious and knock someone out cold in one hit. It might even make a rogue worth playing if you consider sneak attack damage with it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, it is scaling damage.


Hey, it's a bunch of free damage, which is nice. However, I strongly advise against builds that require you to essentially double the amount of rolling you need to do in combat. It gets super annoying, super quickly.

Seems like it would be a good fit on a Thug and/or Sap Adept build, to make up for when you don't have a flanking buddy, though.


It seems like a tarp to me.

-Feat tax with solo maneuvers
-Can't get it till +8 BaB when BEGs will have good HP
-Can be the only one threatening them (uh ohz Bard/Rogue)
-Counter-productivity of non-lethal while everyone else is doing lethal (i.e. he has 58 hp, I just did 30 non-lethal, ally adds in 28 lethal...he's still up) ..meanwhile he just did 40 to you because you are not the tank.
-For the people who can go toe-to-toe now they have to figure out how to get a decent bluff score with ability score/ranks/feats etc. and still be viable at hitting/damaging opponents.

I'm not really seeing it.


I did take the idea though of the ring of mind shielding.

Ring of Mind Shielding and Item Alluring Charisma +1 seemed preferable to Item of Alluring Charisma +3. With a nosy inquisitor I can forgo the few little +1's I'd get with the +3 item.

51 to 89 of 89 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Ultimate B.S. Artist Build? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.