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I wanted to talk about an fact that ha always bugged me: the disparity between good outsiders and evil outsiders.
I don't know how many times this may have come up, but let me frase it anyway: since in D&D monsters are, generally, something to make the PCS fight against, it's normal that there are way more bad creature in the Bestiaries than good ones. I get this.
What bother me is the distribution of such beings in the world of Golarion. When I first read of the worldwound in 2009 I was shocked to think that any people in Avistan had a day of free time with so much demons free to fly everyway in the mortal coil ... And i was right! There are too many evil outsiders around golarion, and there is almost no reason such creature havent totally consumed the planet except for plot convinience. However, since there are so much evil beings there, the lack of presence of good outsiders in Golarion seem to me strange and illogic. I mean, for 30 ... no, let's say for 100 demons we get 1 celestial active in golarion, i believe.
Now. Let's examin the Inner sea region and it's greater threats to peace and happiness.
We got:
1) runelords (quasi-mortal mage kings of ancient civilization that have in many cases army of outsiders [bounded pit fiends, an entire army of summonable beings, succubus and such])
2) Drow: underground empire that worships and summons demons. They tried to bring the apocalypse.
3) Cheliax: a society of diabolism with pit fiend bounded somewhere and other devils somewhere. Lorlach in corvosa.
4) Irrisen: an extraplanar witch and lots of cults of demon(Kotci guy)
5) Osirion: a lot of forgotten daemon bounded in pyramids
6) Katapesh and qadira (a lot of wish granting evil efreeti).
7) Sarkoris: an entire nation consumed by an invading demon lord!
All the other threats (Evil god cults, undead societies, piracy, generic evil mages) seem to me ok since are counterable by mortals alone.
But with such threats coming from extraplanar sources, it seems absurd to me that there are so few celestials active to help!
I know that, game wise, this is because we need THE PCS to be the HEROES, but what the hell! We need balance. In forgotten realms we got uber mages like elminster who actively close-up any rift towards the lower planes (when they can). In Eberron we have Dragons and couatls vs demons, and that is Slayeresque and awesome. What we have in pathfinder? The new smite evil mechanic? It's nice, but unfortunately a lot of such being can teleport and kill/enslave/make made everyone that is not an high level Paladin or a cleric ...
I would really like to know your opinions about such, form me, senseless and illogic disparity.
I noticed this post is in the wrong place. I got confused. Could someone from stuff move it in Pathfinder Campaign settings general discussions?
I'm don't know how to do that ...
The angels are too busy fighting demons and devils on the outer planes? Ofcourse, nobody could stop you from say, summoning/calling/binding your own celestials.
That would be nice but the summon monster list is quite light on decent good aligned creature
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Here's a quick answer - it's not an even match up. There's a LOT more evil souls in the universe than there are good. Being good is hard. Keep in mind that the vast majority of non-evil humanoids, like humans, are actually neutral. Creatures with a natural inclination towards good have a very low population - stuff like nymphs, unicorns, and metallic dragons.
Also, the Abyss doesn't self-limit its forces like Abaddon and Hell do. In Abaddon, the daemons actively kill their petitioners, greatly reducing the pool of possible daemons. In Hell, petitioners go through a millenia long process just to be ground into lemures, and from there it'll take an individual devil centuries to advance in rank - Hell has excessively exacting quality control, as befits Hell.
The Abyss, however, doesn't really have a culture where its petitioners are actively destroyed (it happens, but they're more frequently used as currency), and any soul could become any demon, depending on what's wrong with that soul.
As a result of that, it seems like there's a lot more demons than angels and their kin because there actually are a lot more demons than angels and their kin.
Which universe would you want, one where mortals were needed to rise up against evil or one where everything is taken care of by outsiders?
I for one would rather stay at home than come to a session where the GM tells me what happens and all I get to do is listen..
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It's all about PR. There are plenty of Good outsiders floating around doing their thing, and it's because of them that Golarion isn't overrun.
Thing is, aside from trumpet archons, they're not tooting their own horns. Nobody worries about them because they're not a problem. Like the excess population of gnomes, they're just ignored on a day-to-day basis because they're largely not worth thinking about.
The world is mostly in a balance, and by and large when an exceptional Evil arises, it'll be the mortal races that deal with it, just because there are so many of us.
I think it has a similar answer to the recent thread on asylums. There are probably hundreds of different kinds of good outsiders, but since this is a game where players are assumed to be good, players don't encounter them as readily. Similarly, unlike most evil outsiders who get constant selection by having to fight off rivals, most good outsiders probably do not go through such a selection process, so there are probably a lot of good outsiders with limited offensive abilities who are probably just hanging out in heaven.
I would actually argue that on a cosmic scale, "neutral" outsiders should probably be the most common, as I tend to think that most people drift neutral on the alignment spectrum. Few people are really THAT bad to be damned to Abbaddon, Hell, or the Abyss, and few people are that self sacrificing to end up in Heaven, Nirvana, or Elysium.
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3 things:
#1 - What do the angels owe us? Why should they risk their immortal existence to help us, when the demons are actively trying to invade their home too?
#2 - Let's suppose you lived on a tiny, completely exposed, militarily and strategically insignificant little island, which was invaded by... I don't know... Liechtenstein. Now the evil Liechtensteinians - Liechtensteiners? Liechtensteins? - ok, Liechtensteiners doesn't get flagged by my spell check so we'll go with that one - are invading everywhere, and all the nations of the world are rising up to oppose them, and being overwhelmed. Should they waste their precious resources trying to retake your strategically unimportant little island? Or should they just funnel some small aid where and whenever they can?
(Also, please note, Liechtenstein is a lovely and peaceful country that I hope to visit on my upcoming trip to Europe!)
#3 - Let's suppose that you and your band of stalwarts have braved the dungeon to its lowest levels. You have reached the evil demon that has created all of the strife and suffering above. You spend a few rounds buffing and psyching yourselves up for the coming fight - then you burst through the door! and standing over the charred remains of your foe is a mighty Planetar. "Don't worry guys. We've got this." Then he takes the loot and teleports out. Game Over.
The big thing to remember about the disparity between the number of evil and good outsiders is that mortals are more likely to summon demons for the promise of power, lust, beanie, babies, comfort, One Direction tickets,vengeance, and control. Demons can seduce those people into willingly summoning them, while good outsiders usually only offer moral (ha!)support unless the situation is dire, and then may choose to intervene on their summoners' behalf. If you had one being offering you gold, jewels, nations, etc., and then another one offering not to kick you in the junk because you jaywalked in 8th grade, which one would you rather choose to summon?
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#3 - Let's suppose that you and your band of stalwarts have braved the dungeon to its lowest levels. You have reached the evil demon that has created all of the strife and suffering above. You spend a few rounds buffing and psyching yourselves up for the coming fight - then you burst through the door! and standing over the charred remains of your foe is a mighty Planetar. "Don't worry guys. We've got this." Then he takes the loot and teleports out. Game Over.
That would be awesome! I think the players in my group wouldn't agree though, or they would just claim that they have slain the evil demon. (With all the terrible consequences such as cultists/demons going out of their way to kill all the partymembers.)
Some options for a home campaign:
- Play the bad guys, like in Way of the Wicked. (Not sure as we haven't met that many outsiders yet, but my Aasimar Evangelist Cleric of Asmodeus does have the Angelslayer trait.)
- The mcGuffin is guarded by an Archon/Inevitable who is bound by his word.
- A group of Devils, Inevitables and Archons is working together for the greater good law.
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I've read all your suggestion and understand the thinking behind them.
Yet, I still not convinced. I'll try to answer to all in order to rectify or justify my position.
Let's start with
I do not mean to have someone else doing players job. My is a statement about the heavily disproportion between good outsiders and evil outsiders in Golarion. Sure Pcs have to beat evil people (or neutral ones), simply I wish there were less demons and more "mortal" stuff because the danger for mortal races is too deep and complex to be properly faced.
I do not like your answer, yet i understand what do you mean. However, it was my impression that in Golarion the forces where way more balanced. It's not a case there is no Blood War.
I want an universe where, for every two bounded pit fiend that serves as powersource for a complex there is one greater angel bounded that needs rescue. That is, however, up to the players.
You are right. Good outsider purposely keep themselves out of reach because they prefer not to traumatize humanity with their direct presence. However, against su dire threats like the Worldwound or all the nascente demon lords and similar in golarion I can't understand why, for a sense of equilibrium, equal forces are mobilitated. Allow me an examples: What if Treerazer decides one "day to lay waste to varisia because is bored"? He could do that at any time of day, without warning and without any hope of being stopped by anything short of a solar. In Eberron a guy like him would have been chained un by an army of dragons and put inside a volcano to make sure he does not escape. In faerun we would have the bloodstone series made by elves! In Golarion we have the Winter council and their ONE artifact to keep Treerazer inside Tanglebriar (and it does not work anymore, if i'm correct). I'm not even sure if Treerazer is actualy confined there by some way.
What I ask is like "the holy order of Lizard slayers", an organization of 100 + elven paladins and mages that pop up around the world everytime Treerazer servants pop up, and i want some ghaele and raelis eladrin to back up them. It's not too much, right?
a) We don't owe angels nothing. They simply love us, and have a lot of free time. The very meaning of their existence is to be good and propagate it by erasing evil (which can be done in many way, but generally opposing evil entity its the simplest one)
b) yes, you should! Because if the vile people form liechtenstein are invading you, that means you have something they want and their enemies should want that thing away from them. It's not like demons invade in places they do not care, like lifeless worlds
c)I want something like this scene: Pcs open door and find that the evil cultists and it's entourage who are actually summoning and aspect of Orcus. If they are able to call that, when said aspect tries to fry the pcs, a celestial to pop up and say "Quick, brave heroes! I'm "generic boring good guy" from xxxxx. While i keep this blasphemous thing busy destroy as many of his servants so that his power will be cut". Then, after pcs have finished, the outsider will fall/die and they have to beat an already wounded but still powerfull enemy. I ask for synergy: against otherwordly threats otherwordly help!
I understand what you say. Problem is Golarion is a mess of uberthings ready to kill you and they do not kill you because ... no reason! No one is actively trying to stop them (or better, no one really can).
Let me give you an example from one of my favourite animes, Slayers.
There you have a sealed up part of the world where there are no gods, no angels, only demons and natural fauna (human, elves, dragons, ecc). Yet there is still civilization and society and happiness. Why? Because said demons purpousely stay away from mankind and let them be for their own purposes, thought they may easily exterminate all life without much opposition. In golarion the situation is almost the same: deities cannot interfere directly and there are so many, many succubi that you may ask yourself how can you still be alive! If there was just 1 succubus on planet earth at this moment, she would be the divine empress of everything and we would never reactec the tecnology of XVII century because she would have kept us less advanced, and this because succubus can potencially eradicate entire wordls with a clever use of their's ability.
The big thing to remember about the disparity between the number of evil and good outsiders is that mortals are more likely to summon demons for the promise of power, lust, beanie, babies, comfort, One Direction tickets,vengeance, and control. Demons can seduce those people into willingly summoning them, while good outsiders usually only offer moral (ha!)support unless the situation is dire, and then may choose to intervene on their summoners' behalf. If you had one being offering you gold, jewels, nations, etc., and then another one offering not to kick you in the junk because you jaywalked in 8th grade, which one would you rather choose to summon?
I would summon the thing that will not actively try to murder,destroy,mindrape me at the first chance.
However, my point is that said demons, once called here tends to stay here in vacation and no one seem to care much!
Some options for a home campaign:
- Play the bad guys, like in Way of the Wicked. (Not sure as we haven't met that many outsiders yet, but my Aasimar Evangelist Cleric of Asmodeus does have the Angelslayer trait.)
- The mcGuffin is guarded by an Archon/Inevitable who is bound by his word.
- A group of Devils, Inevitables and Archons is working together for the greater good law.
I like this.
I'm GMing Way of the wicked and i must say, i had to explain to players why there are, suddenly, so much good outsiders around ... and why they aren't coming to kill them!If you are GM that campaign too, we could change ideas
Honestly? It doesn't bother me much at all. Golarion is a game world, and furthermore, it is the singular campaign setting of a game company that wants to be able to tell a lot of stories. This means that there is going to be a plethora of threats; if the celestials help in any significant way, it lessens the believability of why there are so many threats. I realize that there could probably be a more balanced mix, but between too many threats and a logical amount based on a bunch of factors (which I guarantee you, not everyone would agree with), I'd prefer a campaign setting to have too many. That's what makes a campaign setting exciting to me, huge amounts of tension where evil is poised for victory unless something crucial happens. The PCs effort is that crucial element.
But really, if you want some more celestials in there, throw them in! Don't let "canon" stop you. When you play in it, Golarion is *your world* do with it as you will :)
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Some options for a home campaign:
- Play the bad guys, like in Way of the Wicked. (Not sure as we haven't met that many outsiders yet, but my Aasimar Evangelist Cleric of Asmodeus does have the Angelslayer trait.)
- The mcGuffin is guarded by an Archon/Inevitable who is bound by his word.
- A group of Devils, Inevitables and Archons is working together for the greatergoodlaw.I like this.
I'm GMing Way of the wicked and i must say, i had to explain to players why there are, suddenly, so much good outsiders around ... and why they aren't coming to kill them!
If you are GM that campaign too, we could change ideas
Nope, I'm the Aasimar Evangelist Cleric of Asmodeus with the Angelslayer trait. (And having a blast!)
There is an adventure for D&D 3.5 called "the Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde" that did get some things right, but mostly, it was a mediocre dungeoncrawl with a weak theme. The background though, was interesting:
An unknown demon lord from an unknown layer of the abyss tried to invade the material plane at some point in history. (If you must know, it was Mu-Tahn Laa from the Mountains of Sorrow Beyond Measure. No further info was provided.) The plot was to gate his entire castle and army unto the material plane, but he was thwarted by the dwarves, elves and humans and celestials. After recieving visions, and some help from an unlikely ally they erected black monoliths that would siphon the conjuration magic and send the fortress back to where it came from. The fortress held several gates to the abyssal layer as a means to escape when things turned bad.
The dungeon itself is rather bland. The mini-setting build around it was interesting, but it seems to be to rather standard.
Here's what I feel they got right:
- The knights luminary. A really cool order of knights. The solar channeler prestige class is cool in concept only.
- The maug guarding a part of the first dungeon, although he should have been less lenient. This is where I got my archon/inevitable guard idea.
- Yugoloths as hired help.
- Undead from the Slaughterscar. They kind of hint at the theme of the Mountains of Sorrow Beyond Measure.
What it needed:
- Aasimar and tieflings, a lot. Other fiends and celestials trapped on the material plane would also be nice.
- Cultists other than the drow and gnolls.
- Mu-Tahn Laa as the BBEG, or at least his treacherous second in command.
- Obviously, an expedition to the Mountains of Sorrow Beyond Measure.
- Some other motivation beyond explore the ancient dungeon. An immediate threat would be nice.
- An invasion to end with. You can't have a background that is more epic than the adventure itself...
Honestly? It doesn't bother me much at all. Golarion is a game world, and furthermore, it is the singular campaign setting of a game company that wants to be able to tell a lot of stories. This means that there is going to be a plethora of threats; if the celestials help in any significant way, it lessens the believability of why there are so many threats. I realize that there could probably be a more balanced mix, but between too many threats and a logical amount based on a bunch of factors (which I guarantee you, not everyone would agree with), I'd prefer a campaign setting to have too many. That's what makes a campaign setting exciting to me, huge amounts of tension where evil is poised for victory unless something crucial happens. The PCs effort is that crucial element.
But really, if you want some more celestials in there, throw them in! Don't let "canon" stop you. When you play in it, Golarion is *your world* do with it as you will :)
I know. My is simple an observation.
I still hope kelish empire to be full of such beings.
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Maybe all the celestials are busy invading an evil planet somewhere. Planet Evilaron where the Angelwound has opened and celestials are spilling out, filling the peasants' heads with ideas like love and freewill. As the evil warlords try to drive them back, they ask themselves, "Where are all the demons and why aren't more of them helping us?"
I think the real problem is the Outsiders vs everything else disparity. I've been sorting my PF pawns into boxes this weekend (I have BB, B1, 2, 3, NPCC, S&S and RotRL pawn sets) and among the large (and if it werent for the Beginner and NPCC Boxes medium) pawns outsiders were the most frequent by a long shot.
All the while there are almost no fey or plants of any size.
Your thread title sounded cool.
Like a world in peril that might need mortal adventurers to rise to the task.
So in a way, you answered your own question there.
I know. Heroes are really needed in Golarion.
Problem is I don't see many big goods around to inspire such things. I mean, except for queen galfrey, there is some other good and famous patron for Pcs or that actively fights world threats? The good churces, maybe, but that kind of activity is not different from what they should normally do.
Threeshades - that's the thing. Everywhere its full of eternaly creatures that can pop up whenever they want! We need evil more giants and evil plants!
Unruly - I think all the things you say are right.
However, for me the truth is that the Worldwound is pure madness, and the way they pictured it not rule-wise.
1) Demons do not need to breate. Unless the wardstones forms a dome like structure that forbids demons to even come across (plane swifting included), a vrock can literraly fly up to the stratosphere (or teleport up and glide down) and then it's free to go wherever he wants.
2) The first wardstone where put there in 4639, after 15 years from the original invasion! If i where a demon, i would have become bored of Sarkoris after 5 years and would like to despoil somewhere else!
If we got something like "An army of 300 silver and gold dragons guided by Terendevel fought for over 20 years against the demons to keep them busy while the clergy of every good god worked together to create a seal to oppose the demon expansion" i would believe Golarion survived. Since this didn't happened Golarion is still around either because Pazuzu asked his son to "let some cheese for daddy to eat later" or, and this is my idea, paizo people wanted a cool menace without thinking how impossible it was rule-wise to have Golarion survive that ... thing!
My complaint is that Golarion lacks any real "anti-apocalypse team" except for the pcs, with means that, when apocalypse strikes, it will be a lake of fire where only the pcs are staying and everything else is dead or dying. In Faerun, we got Elminster and Mystra's chosen to lock any uber-mage to destroy the world. In Eberron we have all the dragon community to actively oppose the Lords of Dust. Meanwhile there are exciting adventure and heroes, but the world is already kept safe by someone who know how to do that. Pcs are not everywhere, after all.
I guess in the case of Golarion, it is the players who are the ones being Elminster...as opposed to the Forgotten Realms where the player's success or failure means nothing because Mary Sure Uberwenschs like Elminster will set everything right.
Then again it would make an interesting campaign setting, a world overran by demons, each nation now ruled by an Abyssal power....Golarion became a miniature Abyss.
Key point: Outsiders don't need to eat, rest, sleep.
A Good outsider that commits to opposing evil outsiders is a TERRIFYING force. Whizzing around without stopping, gutting evil outsiders, resting and healing, buffing up and going out and doing it again. A team of them operating with telepathic coordination and buffs would shred the average fiendish encounter in the worldwound with little trouble.
Which is probably exactly what is happening out of the view of mortals in strategic locations, especially at the borders to Deskari's realm. He can't just keep sending demons through without possibly weakening his border defenses. It isn't that the angels and celestials will invade...but they will deplete his forces enough so that other, opportunistic forces will do so.
Likewise, he can't have special agents dispatched out of his control, or they start getting uppity. Demons tend to do that. He has to get his forces in and hold them tight.
Likewise, evil outsiders are likely infiltrating mortal society...but so are good outsiders, and they are looking for the evil ones. The vast majority of those that try this trick are probably deal with 'off-camera' by good outsiders, or by their agents. We really don't have any idea of the size or scale of the shadow war going on. Just one Good outsider with True Seeing wandering through a marketplace could locate all sorts of enemies. However, they could also get located in return, as True Seeing is common among the enemies. I imagine Succubi and Erinyes excel in the roles of spy and counter-spy for these purposes.
Just take a flight of astral devas and realize just how many fiends they could slaughter each and every day if they tried to do so, and actually equipped and buffed themselves for the task.
Oh, and the reason for more demons is simple. When a person dies, their sins flow to the Abyss, and every death can spawn multiple lesser demons. But angels and celestials are formed from souls that evolve into harmony with the plane, or even blend together to become something greater. So demons naturally outnumber everything else...they just rip one another apart with such enthusiasm that it brings their numbers under control.
It's not that the universe has so many evil souls, so much as the Abyss is a force multiplier. Give the demons an outside target, and their raw numbers, normally self-consuming, will be directed at others and rapidly outspawn their foes. It's why you don't invade the Abyss.
But, the Worldwound is all about control and power. There are all sorts of agents that could intervene who have power in Golarion, and Deskari is risking stepping on all sorts of toes by what he is doing. He just doesn't care, or figures the gamble is worth it.
Lastly, you are adventurers. You are going to be the ones who stumble across evil outsiders, because that's what you are. That doesn't mean there's a devil on any street corner (unless you count the imps in Korvosa, or something). It means that they are there for you to fight and kill, because that's what you do, and you're naturally drawn into conflict with such things.
I'm sure people in woodlands think the world is overrun with fey, but they aren't everywhere, either...it's just significant when you run into them. The vast majority of people probably rarely ever meet either version during the course of their lives, barring events like the Worldwound...or the influence and power of tremendously strong evil spellcasters.
==Aelryinth
I think it has a similar answer to the recent thread on asylums. There are probably hundreds of different kinds of good outsiders, but since this is a game where players are assumed to be good, players don't encounter them as readily. Similarly, unlike most evil outsiders who get constant selection by having to fight off rivals, most good outsiders probably do not go through such a selection process, so there are probably a lot of good outsiders with limited offensive abilities who are probably just hanging out in heaven.
I would actually argue that on a cosmic scale, "neutral" outsiders should probably be the most common, as I tend to think that most people drift neutral on the alignment spectrum. Few people are really THAT bad to be damned to Abbaddon, Hell, or the Abyss, and few people are that self sacrificing to end up in Heaven, Nirvana, or Elysium.
Sigh....this is why I miss the original cosmology of D&D....so many more planes to fit the alignments, if you are more chaotic and less evil, off you go to Pandemonium. If you are more evil and less Chaotic, you end up in Carceri. If you are just Chaotic neutral, you go to Limbo. If you a little more good than Chaotic, you end up in Ysgard. If you are Chaotic AND good, you dance with the elves in Arborea. If you are leaning more toward neutral than Chaotic but you are still good, you ended up with your dead pets in Beastlands....
If the world is crammed full of bigger and better heroes (such as Elminster and co, or a bunch of Empyreal lords), then PCs are relegated to fixing little problems always in the shadow of the really impressive deeds performed by NPC superstars.
I cannot argue with you on this. There are threaths and there are heroes to face them. My consideration is that the upper part of the Inner sea region is a mess of evil, immortal, extraplanar beast that could easily eradicate all life but tends to stay in the place is written they are even when they can teleport.
Pcs are still much important. Let's examine the APsRunelords: Pcs do a sudden strike to kill an (evil?) mage king before he can exslave (civilize?) avistan
Crimson throne: Pcs kill an evil queen before she can make herself a Mythic something/kill dragon
Kingmaker: Pcs create a society
Carrion crown: Pcs keep Bathon down
Secondo darkness: Pcs stops apocalypse from sky.
All of this is relevant and do not require Elminster. Yet, in the case of Secondo Darkness, clearly if pcs fail we should see some kind of action from every power directly affected by the meteor fall. The fact devils from cheliax or such don't go against that drow is because she's working in a secret place and no more that 10 people know her plains and are afraid to speak of them. Because is she stayed in the open, she would be attacked by anything.
Key point: Outsiders don't need to eat, rest, sleep.
Thank you for your answer. I too think as a GM that this is the way it should work. Where there is evil, we should also have good active in some subtle way to give strenght without dominate.
My problem is that it doesn't work is such way in the APs. After a certain level The Pcs tends to be never backed up by anyone because there is no force active against a threat except them!
For some situation (Korvosa, Kingmaker, the pirate thing) it's ok. For others is just absurd! In Rise of the Runelords Pcs kills a giant warlord and discover that a Runelords has risen and is ready to conquer Varisia ... and no one else care!
But the strangest situation is in the Worldwound. Thought pcs receives boon for their action from greater powers, and an entire army from the queen of Mendev, there is not a single good outsider to help them, or even inspire them.
I don't want those battle for the Pcs, but i wish there was something like "if pcs summon good outsiders, they ask only symbol payments" or a Deva that comes out and ask help to rescue a menber of the special anti glabrezus force ... But we got nothing.
Actually, according to the rules, Outsiders do need to breathe. They don't need to eat or sleep, unless they've got the Native subtype, but they do need to breathe. And I seem to recall that the wardstones create a fairly wide "No Entry, You Die" point for demons, as well as blocking all teleportation. How far into the atmosphere that extends, I don't know, but I'd assume that it's pretty far up since it's a magical effect that spans a few hundred miles across the ground.
As for being put up 15 years after the original invasion, did you forget that the Crusaders beat the demons back into their hole the first time around? They built the wardstones during their retreat after the Second Crusade failed. So the demons would have still been fighting the crusaders during the period when they were built. Once they were built, the demons couldn't get past. Were there demons that said "screw the crusaders" and just bypassed them instead of fighting? More than likely. But I'd bet that Deskari kept most of them in line, what with him being an archfiend. After all, it's mostly his forces that are fighting at the Worldwound. It's not like it's the entirety of the Abyss all throwing themselves at Golarion at once.
Now, if it was the entirety of the Abyss, that would be an entirely different story.
I believe outsiders don't need to breath. no even human like succubi. There is a module (Moonscar) about succubi on the moon in areas where there is no air, i believe. The backcovers stats "demon in space".
About the first invasion, it was not such. The wiki says that Deskari purposely went soft to test the attacking forces ... the fact is that, by my point of view, Deskari had no reason to say "attack there". Demons can teleport! They could spread everywhere in Golarion by flying and running without sleeping and then return at the master call ... by going in SPACE. And They can do that while carring rocks! Just thing about the damage. Do you see the first 5 minutes of Armageddon? Think smaller, and you get what could, rule-wise, do ...
You're actually just wrong about demons not needing to breathe. The succubi on the Moon live in regions that have air due to various magical shenanigans (Azlanti colonization attempts, Abyssal rifts, etc.).
The Moonscar's a really weird environment, but I don't remember sections that didn't have air when I played through it.
Honestly, That seems to be one of the big complaints I've heard about Forgotten Realms.
WHY was MY character needed, when Elminster and Drizzt can pop in and solve the problem and pop away...
I believe Golarion was designed to make YOU the hero the world needs. I remember James Jacobs making the comment that any given time there are only 4 'heroes' active... the ones YOU are playing. Everything is in the players hands...
Frankly, I never had a problem with the big NPCs in FR... I grew up on Comic books. I am well versed with the idea of 'Superman's obviously busy... That's why Batman has to track down Two-face...'
Why aren't the big angels kicking all the demon butt??
They're busy with something else. Simple as that.
Here's one for you... How about they aren't ALLOWED to help? Some kind of Holy Treaty that was signed years ago by the gods that prevent interferrence... .Just becasue the bad guys break it a lot... doesn't mean the good guys aren't bound by their word...
/shrug.
Maybe they can only show up when they are summoned? and people only summon the evil ones....
Lots of angels just waiting in line for a chance to be summoned and kick some butt..
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I read that succubi could fly throught space and that you need of a necktail to survive the place. Maybe i'm wrong.
Yet, They still can teleport at 50 km, throw now a rock and pop down on a city.
Ok. You convincer me.
No more vrock in space ...
Its sad but ok.
You know I saw a documentary recently that stated that when the universe first formed it was composed of roughly equal amounts of matter and anti-matter, that matter only out numbered anti-matter by about 1 part in a billion...
Which was enough for our universe as it exists today.
So a little more even numbers doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Flipside -- even with a little more even numbers you might not notice the difference if you are behind enemy lines to start with.
Honestly, That seems to be one of the big complaints I've heard about Forgotten Realms.
WHY was MY character needed, when Elminster and Drizzt can pop in and solve the problem and pop away...
I believe Golarion was designed to make YOU the hero the world needs. I remember James Jacobs making the comment that any given time there are only 4 'heroes' active... the ones YOU are playing. Everything is in the players hands...
Frankly, I never had a problem with the big NPCs in FR... I grew up on Comic books. I am well versed with the idea of 'Superman's obviously busy... That's why Batman has to track down Two-face...'
Why aren't the big angels kicking all the demon butt??
They're busy with something else. Simple as that.
Here's one for you... How about they aren't ALLOWED to help? Some kind of Holy Treaty that was signed years ago by the gods that prevent interferrence... .Just becasue the bad guys break it a lot... doesn't mean the good guys aren't bound by their word...
/shrug.
Maybe they can only show up when they are summoned? and people only summon the evil ones....
Lots of angels just waiting in line for a chance to be summoned and kick some butt..
This is a sad truth: people in Golarion don't use to summon Angels.
They summon soul sucking thing that will kill them when They canLets chance thin gs in may way of the wicked!
Thank you all for the answers. You people are the best
I am wondering if the fact that a mortal (Arlee Vorlesh) opened the worldwound also plays into the role celestial outsiders can play in closing.
We know there are "rules" in place the limit direct intervention from gods, but perhaps those exist for all outsiders. Since a mortal opened up the worldwound, a mortal must close it.
Dot for later.
I just wanted to personally thank Pnakotus Detsujin for bringing this issue up. It's always seemed strange to me that good was so heavily outnumbered (and at times outgunned) by evil in the Pathfinder RPG setting. While I now see more reasons for Golarion (and the Multiverse) being tilted slightly more in favor of evil, I still think we definitely need a little more Celestials in the mix. I certainly wouldn't mind one or two brand new monster entries for each of the six kinds of celestials (aka Agathions, Angels, Archons, Azatas, Garuda, and Peril).
This is a sad truth: people in Golarion don't use to summon Angels.
Er, that may be generalizing Golarion a bit to much. I'd say MOST beings in Golarion don't summon celestials and that's probably only due to the fact that you need to be a magic user of 7th to 10th level in order cast Lesser Planar Ally/Lesser Planar Binding (or at the very least use an item to summon one or find someone to cast the spell for you. Let's not forget that not EVERYONE in Golarion is a spellcaster and certainly a large amount of normal people in Golarion are of NPC Classes only.
First Timelord: It was so powerful, it's operating system developed sentience, some even say a conscience. Who would dare use a weapon of ultimate destruction when it could judge you? Only one man in all of creation would..
HA! Matt Smith's doctor would TOTALLY try and use it! Hell, the damn super weapon would probably take a LIKING to him!
That's the inherent problem with summoning good beings. Doing so lays all your faults to bear, and most can't stand the view.
While I can totally see mortals not being able to stand looking at a being whose every fiber was comprised of literally pure goodness, I'd also say the same thing for those who conjure some fiends as well (even some of the most evil spellcasters on Golarion would find some particular fiends to be outright repulsive). I think it's all a matter of willpower to be honest (which is to say if your a spellcaster whose reached 7th to 10th level you've pretty much demonstrated that you've got an iron will).
Kindly also realize something else: Anyone can summon a devil or demon and get it to work for them. Evil doesn't really care.
Not everybody can summon a celestial or angel, and getting one to work for you requires you to be Good, at the very least. that cuts out a huge portion of the population right there.
In general, Good is busybusybusy being outnumbered and fighting in conflicts that matter, elsewhere. When CR 15 Astral Devas are line soldiers in a war, who gives a fig about a Runelord? They're facing down a million-strong army of the Abyss!
So, Summoning spells determine the extent of the aid they'll give, which is good and fair. It limits their involvement to mortals powerful enough to stand on a par with them at the very least, letting them know their time isn't being wasted.
==Aelryinth