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Likewise, evil outsiders are likely infiltrating mortal society...but so are good outsiders, and they are looking for the evil ones. The vast majority of those that try this trick are probably deal with 'off-camera' by good outsiders, or by their agents.
That could be an awesome campaign / storyline concept in itself.
There are angels lurking in the shadows, waiting for a demon to slip free of the Worldwound and start teleporting around and causing mischief. Every now and then, some clueless mortals will turn into an alleyway, and have the endless war between good and evil blow up in their face.
Those that survive such encounters are rarely unchanged...
Cue the backstory for how your character was inspired to join the fight, as a Paladin or good Cleric, or had the abilities of an Oracle or Sorcerer spontaneously manifest.
That sort of game, set in an urban environment, could go all sorts of sideways and Constantine, with an unseen war raging between Heaven and Hell, that most mortals never notice, for whatever reason.
I just wanted to personally thank Pnakotus Detsujin for bringing this issue up. It's always seemed strange to me that good was so heavily outnumbered (and at times outgunned) by evil in the Pathfinder RPG setting. While I now see more reasons for Golarion (and the Multiverse) being tilted slightly more in favor of evil, I still think we definitely need a little more Celestials in the mix. I certainly wouldn't mind one or two brand new monster entries for each of the six kinds of celestials (aka Agathions, Angels, Archons, Azatas, Garuda, and Peril).
Resistance (to the Abyss that is) is FUTILE!
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Resistance (to the Abyss that is) is FUTILE!
And millions of religious conservatives cried out in joyous unison that they would have more fuel to fan the fire that continuously gives all decent roleplayers a hell of a headache.
Maybe all the celestials are busy invading an evil planet somewhere. Planet Evilaron where the Angelwound has opened and celestials are spilling out, filling the peasants' heads with ideas like love and freewill. As the evil warlords try to drive them back, they ask themselves, "Where are all the demons and why aren't more of them helping us?"
I am totally taking this idea. However, I'd rather name this alternate Golarion something like Selarion.
Honestly, I figure the main reason more people call up fiends than angels with planar binding is that you're basically kidnapping and trapping them by default while you try and force them to make a bargain...which is not exactly a good thing to do. Furthermore, you still can't get it to agree to an impossible or unreasonable demand, which is admittedly up to the DM to decide, but I imagine that celestials might find many things more unreasonable than less ethically cluttered outsiders.
I see things like you, Luthorne. That is why people who could summon less good guys that their evil counterparts.
Yet, my post was more about the unbalance in Golarion for no good figures publicily active to overcome possibly world-ending threats.
Reading all the other stuff, there are good points. At the same time, this reinforce the idea of golarion being an important place for everybody (rovagug, eldritch aboleth magic, the firstworld, many other deep hidden great evils, several demon lords or infernal dukes either imprisioned or free in the surface or just below).
I'm just amazed there is not, except for that Avolar fron Andoran (i believe) no direct mention of any organization of big guns (immortal creatuere able to teleport) ready to intervene in case things goes s%%%.
Let's make an example:
In that AP the pcs are the heroes: they kill Dragotha and the worm-god themselves. There is however the circle of eight and one of them help theme to fight kyuss and his servants. He does that not by blasting people, but by giving PCS info, ideas and assist them with a Ghaele Eladrin named Celeste which is all happy to help. In the Eberron version of this, that wizard is actually a Great Wyrm Dragon. He still don't do crap, but since a demigod is probably arising, he wants to be ready. He dimension-lock an entire city to allow players to fight on pair against and army that can teleport ...
Now, we still don't get something like age of worms in Golarion (epic, legendary threat clearly coming to fruition), so no direct comparison. Yet, we have in Serpent skull the resurrection of an evil god ... and Pcs are attuerly alone! We talk about pcs that can teleport around and ask help to anybody, but ... the AP does not compute!
Pcs are allowed only to: 1) try to find some timefrozen general into a daemon-filled dungeon 2) reunite an army by themselves against the serpentfolk (an army that, by what i was able to get, will be slaughtered against the marilith the enemies have - like putting a man with a sword agaist an army of mouses. It only requires a bit of time)
3) While the army fights, they sneak him to kill the high priest ... and the avatar of the god.
There are a lot demons and daemons (some with class levels), being that, if not killed, will stay there forever (or until the bore themselves, since they can teleport at will) and not one good being already active to avoid an evil slave-god resurrection ... and the only celestial being aviable is a CN lillend. Not a single couatl!I mean, what the hell!
Resistance (to the Abyss that is) is FUTILE!And millions of religious conservatives cried out in joyous unison that they would have more fuel to fan the fire that continuously gives all decent roleplayers a hell of a headache.
I know I did! :D
Not a single couatl!I mean, what the hell!
Eye-c-wat-u-did-thar!
Resistance (to the Abyss that is) is FUTILE!And millions of religious conservatives cried out in joyous unison that they would have more fuel to fan the fire that continuously gives all decent roleplayers a hell of a headache.I know I did! :D
Not a single couatl!I mean, what the hell!Eye-c-wat-u-did-thar!
There is a couatl in the Ap that i missed?
No. It... was a joke... based off of an unintentional pun.
(You mentioned a celestial-like creature and hell side-by-side.)
:)
Resistance (to the Abyss that is) is FUTILE!And millions of religious conservatives cried out in joyous unison that they would have more fuel to fan the fire that continuously gives all decent roleplayers a hell of a headache.
Oh puh-leaze! When have anybody listen to religious conservatives other than other religious conservatives? Do anybody really take them seriously?
Maybe all the celestials are busy invading an evil planet somewhere. Planet Evilaron where the Angelwound has opened and celestials are spilling out, filling the peasants' heads with ideas like love and freewill. As the evil warlords try to drive them back, they ask themselves, "Where are all the demons and why aren't more of them helping us?"I am totally taking this idea. However, I'd rather name this alternate Golarion something like Selarion.
In that scenario, I think the demons would be more than happy to "help out".
There are more active evil outsiders because of one simple rule. You typically will find what you are looking for. Looking big bad guys and you will find demons, devils and such plotting. Really it's that simple. Why bother with what the angels are doing on Golorian.
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Who do you think brings all these plucky adventuring parties together in the first place? Did you honestly think it was coincidence that six burly adventurers came to Sandpoint and were all in the cathedral square on the exact moment the goblins attacked?
I think not ;)
Because Planar balances of power are a tricky thing, and because powerful beings aren't usually ultimate pragmatists enmasse.
The struggle between planar powers in Golarion isn't Black vs White. It's Black vs White vs Orange vs Green vs Purple vs Yellow...
There's always way more at play than just the goodguys and the badguys, and in the case of the forces of The Abyss, they fight themselves as much as they fight everyone else. And every BBEG in the setting has to worry about OTHER BBEG's as much as the potential heroes coming after them.
Who do you think brings all these plucky adventuring parties together in the first place? Did you honestly think it was coincidence that six burly adventurers came to Sandpoint and were all in the cathedral square on the exact moment the goblins attacked?
I think not ;)
Also this. The Protagonists ARE the tools of the Forces of Light.
I prefer my Celestials more subtle in their methods, anyway. Good is about uplifting the humble and strengthening the weak as much as it is protecting it.
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Plus, an army of celestials vs an army of demons is a great way to completely trash the planet and make life not very nice for most mortals.
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Which are you more likely to hear about, a serial killer who kills six people over three years, or a doctor who saves 60 in the same time frame? Answer: The serial killer. Really overt Evil of the kind Fiends indulge in is just generally more notable than most varieties of good.
Most Celestials on the Prime Material are the doctor in the example above. They do good by, y'know, doing good, not smiting every possible evil thing or fighting fiends directly. I'm not saying they outnumber fiends or are more effective, but they could easily be as effective and still seldom be noted just because they're probably only notable when they're being violent, which isn't the default state for most of them.
Sure, most look somewhat notable...but in many cases not enough that they can't pass for some sort of mortal creature, and even if they don't "I met a weird snake-woman with wings who healed me after I fell and broke my arm." doesn't exactly scream Celestials unless you already know what a Lillend is.
It's really like in the real world, more people would go to hell, more people are evil, not much good humans live on this earth so not much celestial creatures are made.
Then there are Succubi and other such creatures who corrupt the souls of the few good beings so even more demons, devils and other such evils are born, and there are the Daemons who claim souls that die on a particular manner.
So that's why there are so few Angels and other Celestial creatures me think, but most of those creatures are more powerful than the evil creatures, just look at the Solar and Sovereign Dragon.
Like Deadman almost said, the angels have other things to do than fight against evil. They keep things running, creating the souls for the babies, etc. Evil outsiders ignore that kind of work as it is much easier to steal the ready product.
Thought it would nice to have stats for stork-angels and other humble folk.
Like Deadman almost said, the angels have other things to do than fight against evil. They keep things running, creating the souls for the babies, etc. Evil outsiders ignore that kind of work as it is much easier to steal the ready product.
Thought it would nice to have stats for stork-angels and other humble folk.
Apparently according to the module Bastion of Broken Souls, angels are not responsible for making souls for babies....
Creative Director
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Apparently according to the module Bastion of Broken Souls, angels are not responsible for making souls for babies....Like Deadman almost said, the angels have other things to do than fight against evil. They keep things running, creating the souls for the babies, etc. Evil outsiders ignore that kind of work as it is much easier to steal the ready product.
Thought it would nice to have stats for stork-angels and other humble folk.
I should not that's not the way things work in Golarion/Pathifnder, that being the intellectual property of Wizards of the Coast...
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I should not that's not the way things work in Golarion/Pathifnder, that being the intellectual property of Wizards of the Coast...Apparently according to the module Bastion of Broken Souls, angels are not responsible for making souls for babies....Like Deadman almost said, the angels have other things to do than fight against evil. They keep things running, creating the souls for the babies, etc. Evil outsiders ignore that kind of work as it is much easier to steal the ready product.
Thought it would nice to have stats for stork-angels and other humble folk.
Oh man -- what if they had to create souls like humans create babies?
Angel 1: "Come on we got to get busy again."
Angel 2: "Again? I want a rest."
Angle 1: "Nope, people were busy again last night and we got a quota to fill."
Angel 2: "Can't Angel 3 go tonight."
Angel 1: "Not since that blow out last week -- Angel 3 needs more recovery time."
I personally think that there are less good aligned outsiders in Golarion is because human adventures are badass! my party once took two level 12 characters and killed a Glabrezu in two turns, and there really wasn't even much of a fight. The reason demons aren't flattening the world is because while demons are strong, humans are also capable of great things. There's not as much need for a celestial to risk it's life (keeping in mind that when outsiders die outside of their native plane, they die for good) when there are plenty of willing and capable people living on Golarion who will fight them without the risk of getting rewarded with Oblivion for a failed attempt to stop the encroaching evil. A human cleric is actually better equipped to fight demons than a lot of celestials.
I personally think that there are less good aligned outsiders in Golarion is because human adventures are badass! my party once took two level 12 characters and killed a Glabrezu in two turns, and there really wasn't even much of a fight. The reason demons aren't flattening the world is because while demons are strong, humans are also capable of great things. There's not as much need for a celestial to risk it's life (keeping in mind that when outsiders die outside of their native plane, they die for good) when there are plenty of willing and capable people living on Golarion who will fight them without the risk of getting rewarded with Oblivion for a failed attempt to stop the encroaching evil. A human cleric is actually better equipped to fight demons than a lot of celestials.
I condur. Yet, what i wonder if how a world so purposely full of Heavy hitter able to teleport at will is ever able to know a senso of order. Is not that there are not people able to over come such perils, but is that so much of the rest of the people are not and i find little reason that such creature do not go in an all-out onslaught everytime They can.
as an example, i remenber a certa in assassin from dawn of the scarlet Sun modules who, by the rules, is able to coulpe the grave every mayor magnimar figures in one night. Pcs may beat her, but there is no way anyone except a level 15 mage could avoid n'è killer by such enemy. Yeti a lot of rich and power full people of magnimar still live
(keeping in mind that when outsiders die outside of their native plane, they die for good)
I think you have that backwards. IF they are called off their native plane they can die, but I seem to remember at least several outsiders that specifically cannot die outside of their home plane.
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(keeping in mind that when outsiders die outside of their native plane, they die for good)I think you have that backwards. IF they are called off their native plane they can die, but I seem to remember at least several outsiders that specifically cannot die outside of their home plane.
Actually, in Golarion, neither is true. Current plane of residence makes absolutely no difference and killing Outsiders is always permanent (barring True Resurrection anyway).
Actually, in Golarion, neither is true. Current plane of residence makes absolutely no difference and killing Outsiders is always permanent (barring True Resurrection anyway).(keeping in mind that when outsiders die outside of their native plane, they die for good)I think you have that backwards. IF they are called off their native plane they can die, but I seem to remember at least several outsiders that specifically cannot die outside of their home plane.
Unless they are summoned -- but again technically they aren't killed since it doesn't count.
Sometimes those good souls are captured by evil beings and can't be broken out. Other times, they are corrupted by evil beings. Either way, there is little a deity can do to directly influence a captured soul of a good outsider.
Yet, my post was more about the unbalance in Golarion for no good figures publicily active to overcome possibly world-ending threats.
I had this similar problem with Carrion Crown. On the eve of the return of the Whispering Tyrant, and the PCs are potentially tussling with a handful of Knights of Ozem over some business with a witch.
I defused it somewhat in my game by suggesting that a bunch of foreigners asking too many questions about the Whispering Way would only draw suspicion on themselves, and that the medallions of fallen cultists they had taken as proof of WW activity could just as easily be used as "evidence" to indict them as members of the cult.
Still it does seem odd that all of these APs that feature some potentially world/life ending event seem to happen in areas in which the locals don't really give much of a damn about their likely imminent death, never mind celestials and the like.
In real world religions evil forces are always more active than good ones in the world. Good offers a happy afterlife, while evil offers a horrific one. Since the afterlife is not a selling point for the forces of evil, they are tempt and meddle more in the mortal world - satiating vices and people's hunger for power.Still it does seem odd that all of these APs that feature some potentially world/life ending event seem to happen in areas in which the locals don't really give much of a damn about their likely imminent death, never mind celestials and the like.
That also explain that despite the presence of resurrection and raise dead spells, people coming back from the dead is relatively rare...the good souls do not want to come back from their afterlife rewards, and nobody want to raise an evil character.
There are too many evil outsiders around golarion, and there is almost no reason such creature havent totally consumed the planet except for plot convinience.
Ignoring the "plot convenience" and "it's a literary construct so that player groups will have lots of choice of prefab evil to fight" arguments for a moment...
All the source material neglects a glaring balancing factor of the disparity you mention -- namely, the number of adventurers in the world.
Assuming we have 250,000 Pathfinder Players in our universe, that equates to give or take Sixty Thousand 4- to 5- member adventuring groups, of widely varying power levels in Golarion, most of them unaware of one anothers' presence. Now, even accounting for not all of those groups active in the same parallel world-versions of Golarion, or travelling to and from other planes and planets, that's more than enough to make up for the Celestial Disparity you note. All those Pathfinder Society games? same world. And surely of every game group out there, there are a few on the same world, and just not aware of one another as noted above.
In summary, there's plenty of reasons why the disparity really doesn't exist -- if you don't want it to.
However, as popular tradition goes, we all enjoy stories where someone displays courage in the face of overwhelming odds and still wins, even at great cost.
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I think there is a common error of considering good and evil like teams.
Mainly because of misconceptions on evil.
The truth is ... there are a lot of "team evil" not just one.
The reason why the world isn't over is not just because of good intervention. But in grand part also because every evil doesn't want to bring evil to the world. They want their unique brand of evil.
The abyss is a prime example of this, the only reason why the demons of the abyss didn't already conquer the Multiverse is... there is no "demons of the abyss" team.
There are many demonlords fighting among each others, with chain of commands fighting among each others and from time to time rebelling trying to topple their own masters.
When it comes to evil you really should stop seeing things like they were a team and go to the core of it.
Replace evil with selfish.
There is a lot of selfish creatures in Golarion.
But the mere fact that they are selfish ensures they will never go far as a united front.
While good people, may have a lot of differences but they usually hold dear a few common ideals and they are willing to present a united front in their defense.