Goblin Squad Member
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Second thing was that I was a little bit 'disgusted' when I heard female players taking part in the virtual rape as well. I'd expect that from some juvenile (mentally) males, but less so for females.Thank you for implying that rape is a womans issue. And for reinforcing gender roles. Real helpful there.
Never claimed it was a woman's issue. (Notice the bold part above.) That was you Morbis. Women are usually the victims therefor when females take part in that action it is disheartening. Males raped is rare because it usually doesn't go past sexual harassment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Despite the hyperbole beautifully encapsulated in Bluddwolf's last post, I don't think anyone here thinks those who find the video humourous are rapists, or condone rape. I certainly don't think so.
We simply said the video was amusing or funny. That is in no way condoning rape in the real world.Except it is. By saying things to the equivalent of "Rape is funny, rape is cool," you are condoning it. You're telling the victims that they are to be laughed at. You're telling the victims that their trauma is a source of entertainment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I for one hope this thread does not get locked. Our most important function as crowdforgers is creating the proper community for PFO. believe it or not, it's more important than debating a SAD mechanic we have few specifics on. I think we can all agree that this type of thing is mostly just shenanigans, but at the end of it all we really should come to the consensus that we do not want this in PFO.
We can say we don't want it, but, realistically, what can be put in place to stop it? The perpetrators will simply claim that they are roleplaying Chaotic Neutral, and the people in charge won't want to permaban twenty or thirty accounts.
Video games attract young people (read: teenagers and children), and young people think this sort of thing is funny. In an open PvP game this sort of thing can't really be stopped, and it will drive players away. I understand that the project doesn't have enough money behind it to hire the people to write and create enough PvE content to make the game viable, but you have to wonder if all the time, effort, and resources are going to go right down the drain when PvP greifing drives away all of the playerbase aside from PvP greifers
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Goblin Squad Member
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We can say we don't want it, but, realistically, what can be put in place to stop it? The perpetrators will simply claim that they are roleplaying Chaotic Neutral, and the people in charge won't want to permaban twenty or thirty accounts.
Video games attract young people (read: teenagers and children), and young people think this sort of thing is funny. In an open PvP game this sort of thing can't really be stopped, and it will drive players away. I understand that the project doesn't have enough money behind it to hire the people to write and create enough PvE content to make the game viable, but you have to wonder if all the time, effort, and resources are going to go right down the drain when PvP greifing drives away all of the playerbase aside from PvP greifers
One of the things Ryan Dancey's been pretty clear on is an intolerance for toxic gameplay, and a toxic environment. Should the community decide, through whatever means (reporting, etc.) are available, that this is toxic behaviour, I have no doubt the GMs will indeed be willing to ban those responsible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We can say we don't want it, but, realistically, what can be put in place to stop it? The perpetrators will simply claim that they are roleplaying Chaotic Neutral, and the people in charge won't want to permaban twenty or thirty accounts.
Video games attract young people (read: teenagers and children), and young people think this sort of thing is funny. In an open PvP game this sort of thing can't really be stopped, and it will drive players away. I understand that the project doesn't have enough money behind it to hire the people to write and create enough PvE content to make the game viable, but you have to wonder if all the time, effort, and resources are going to go right down the drain when PvP greifing drives away all of the playerbase aside from PvP greifers
We can only hope that what GW wants to accomplish, it will. At least enough of what it wants to make this game better than all of the other miserably failed attempts at open PVP with worthless consequences. I do believe that we can help shape the culture, but it takes so few to ruin it that it may be a pretty tough task.
Ryan seems pretty committed to his vision. How it will all turn out is probably down to (mostly mechanics) and some direct organized player disincentives. They are planning to give players some control with the rep system and the best training available in player held lands. Will the mechanics of "the suck funnel" and "strong pro community" be enough to make this the first such offering that is different? I think that is mostly up to GW and also somewhat the players that the game attracts. It has to be attractive to a significant portion of the MMO player base that is tentative about open PVP, or it will fail like the others. By "fail" I mean ending up as a game with a pop in the low 1000s.
They want the "open PVP". They want the "consequential PVP". They want our focus to move from individual concerns to "settlement survival concerns". That is my take on it right now, anyway.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We can say we don't want it, but, realistically, what can be put in place to stop it? The perpetrators will simply claim that they are roleplaying Chaotic Neutral, and the people in charge won't want to permaban twenty or thirty accounts.
Video games attract young people (read: teenagers and children), and young people think this sort of thing is funny. In an open PvP game this sort of thing can't really be stopped, and it will drive players away. I understand that the project doesn't have enough money behind it to hire the people to write and create enough PvE content to make the game viable, but you have to wonder if all the time, effort, and resources are going to go right down the drain when PvP greifing drives away all of the playerbase aside from PvP greifers
Well it starts right here doesn't it?
We've got some mature posters here who know it's wrong and have just been nonchalant about it because of the whole gaming culture thing. I don't think we have to be militaristic about it, just grown ups telling these "children" (many of them aren't BTW) we don't think it's funny here.
I don't mean to imply that all PvPers are children, but that there is a significant segment of the MMO player base that thinks that the shenanigans displayed on that video are not only funny, but acceptable and justifiable. You can bring the adults into the community, but some people just want to watch the world burn.
If the designers are serious about stopping it, that's awesome, but i'm unsure about how effective they can be, unless they are willing to bring the ban hammer down liberally in the first weeks of launch.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cognitive Dissonance is easy. "I don't want that, I just want to fight tooth-and-nail for systems that will encourage that".
It is not systems that allow for that, it is the lack of content that produces that.
If the Devs gave greater incentives to participate in the behaviors they wish to see, fewer players will behave outside of those desired behaviors. There will of course always be those on the extreme, that wont care about incentives. They will also not care about the consequences either, but fortunately I believe they are a small segment of the population.
I honestly believe we want (almost)the same thing, just a different way of getting there.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I think there's a reasonable chance someone will produce a Lets Play video with content similar to this in Pathfinder Online. It's virtually inevitable. The "stealth" animation that we're using is a crouch and in the playtest we did last Friday, someone used it to teabag another player. And that's our own staff just having fun.
I see several challenges that we need to be prepared to address.
The first is that we need to have enough Lets Play content out there very quickly that nobody thinks that the less savory things one can do in the game are representative of what most players do most of the time when they play. That's a part of my marketing plan - to help people get visibility for positive-image reinforcing Lets Play content.
The second is that we need a way to process community feedback quickly enough to be effective. Anyone who has ever worked with pets or small children knows that the longer the time lapse between the bad behavior and the imposition of negative consequences, the less effective the negative consequences are in changing the unwanted behavior. If we get deluged with /report feedback for every misuse of a profanity or the equivalent of humping someone's leg with a cleverly timed animation, we'll find ourselves with a queue that is too long to process in any reasonable timeframe. What we need to do is develop a way to guide people towards /reporting the egregiously bad behavior that is worse than just run of the mill bathroom humor so we can react to it expeditiously. [My theory is that if we smack down the really egregious behavior we'll also substantially reduce the more minor misbehavior, since the perpetrators of the former are often the instigators of the latter in a wider population.]
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Goblin Squad Member
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The first is that we need to have enough Lets Play content out there very quickly that nobody thinks that the less savory things one can do in the game are representative of what most players do most of the time when they play. That's a part of my marketing plan - to help people get visibility for positive-image reinforcing Lets Play content.
How can we help?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think there's a reasonable chance someone will produce a Lets Play video with content similar to this in Pathfinder Online. It's virtually inevitable. The "stealth" animation that we're using is a crouch and in the playtest we did last Friday, someone used it to teabag another player. And that's our own staff just having fun.
I see several challenges that we need to be prepared to address.
The first is that we need to have enough Lets Play content out there very quickly that nobody thinks that the less savory things one can do in the game are representative of what most players do most of the time when they play. That's a part of my marketing plan - to help people get visibility for positive-image reinforcing Lets Play content.
The second is that we need a way to process community feedback quickly enough to be effective. Anyone who has ever worked with pets or small children knows that the longer the time lapse between the bad behavior and the imposition of negative consequences, the less effective the negative consequences are in changing the unwanted behavior. If we get deluged with /report feedback for every misuse of a profanity or the equivalent of humping someone's leg with a cleverly timed animation, we'll find ourselves with a queue that is too long to process in any reasonable timeframe. What we need to do is develop a way to guide people towards /reporting the egregiously bad behavior that is worse than just run of the mill bathroom humor so we can react to it expeditiously. [My theory is that if we smack down the really egregious behavior we'll also substantially reduce the more minor misbehavior, since the perpetrators of the former are often the instigators of the latter in a wider population.]
Good plan for the "Let's Play..." videos.
I totally agree on the second part also. You really don't need "witch hunter" culture either. Extremes (in any direction) are never good or work in a lasting and positive fashion. I think that (as was pointed out in another thread) we advocate for extremes partly in the hopes that we get part of what we want and the fear that we will get none if we don't.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't mean to imply that all PvPers are children, but that there is a significant segment of the MMO player base that thinks that the shenanigans displayed on that video are not only funny, but acceptable and justifiable. You can bring the adults into the community, but some people just want to watch the world burn.
If the designers are serious about stopping it, that's awesome, but i'm unsure about how effective they can be, unless they are willing to bring the ban hammer down liberally in the first weeks of launch.
We can't have unrealistic expectations for it. But that doesn't excuse being flippant. It's our lawn, we're the first ones here and it's up to us to set a tone. It really is our job as crowdforgers. It's a big part of the whole point to bringing us in a few thousand at a time.
