Improvisation and Untrained Knowledges

Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

Does Improvisation allow a character to make knowledge checks above DC 10 for knowledge skills in which they have no ranks?


Prerequisites: Int 13, Fast Learner, human.

Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all skill checks for skills you have no ranks in. Furthermore, you can use all trained skills untrained.

Untrained Knowledge:

Untrained: You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10. If you have access to an extensive library that covers a specific skill, this limit is removed. The time to make checks using a library, however, increases to 1d4 hours. Particularly complete libraries might even grant a bonus on Knowledge checks in the fields that they cover.

My impression is that the wording of Improvisation does not overrule the clause about knowledge checks because you are still untrained. This would make Improvisation only really worthwhile on the other trained skills and for the bonus to skills you haven't invested a skill point in.

Please discuss.

Sovereign Court


There are other abilities that allow knowledge checks specifically to be made untrained so the language must be intended to mean something with respect to knowledge skills.

Improvisation allows you to succeed at K checks with a DC above 10.

We know this is true because of this:

PRD wrote:

Bardic Knowledge (Ex): A bard adds half his class level (minimum 1) on all Knowledge skill checks and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained.

There are several classes with abilities that allow the class to make a Knowledge skill check "untrained." Interpreting them to not allow a DC above 10 is nonsensical because one can already Take 10 on K checks untrained. Your interpretation would mean Bardic Knowledge and other abilities like it are essentially worthless.

I've run into others who try and slap the untrained restriction on Improvisation. Yet no one tries to do that with Bardic Knowledge. Why is that?

It can hardly be more explicit than "you can use all trained skills untrained". It says directly in the description of the feat.

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