Missing type(Su, Sp, Ex) for several bard performances...WHY?


Rules Questions


Why in all the PRD bardic performances does Attract rats and Soothing Performance from Animal Speaker (Archetype), have no type(Su, Sp, Ex)?

How do we than determine if they provoke? If feats like augment summoning which was FAQed to work on spell-like summoning abilities, apply? Whether they work in antimagic fields? Very frustrating. Any thoughts?

Best I can figure it would be Sp for attract rats and Ex for soothing performance. As attract rats sorta replicates a spell(SUMMON SWARM a spell) and soothing performance sorta replicates WILD EMPATHY(ex).


Soothing performance is (su) in the bard list of performances, so it would be the same for an archetype I suppose. And anything that gets you critters out of the thin air almost instantly and anywhere has to be (su) as well.


Vatras wrote:
Soothing performance is (su) in the bard list of performances, so it would be the same for an archetype I suppose. And anything that gets you critters out of the thin air almost instantly and anywhere has to be (su) as well.

This is a different soothing performance altogether...from ultimate magic,spellcastings options(bard), after masterpieces, Animal Speaker:

"Bardic Performance: An animal speaker gains the following types of bardic performance.

Soothing Performance: At 3rd level, an animal speaker can use bardic performance to influence animals. This works like the druid ability wild empathy, except he expends 1 round of bardic performance and makes a Perform check. If the bard already has wild empathy from another class, he adds the class levels that provide wild empathy to the result of his Perform check to influence an animal. This ability replaces inspire competence.

Attract Rats: At 6th level, the animal speaker can use bardic performance to summon 1d3 rat swarms; they remain as long as he continues performing. At 11th level, he summons 2d3 swarms instead of 1d3 and the swarms have the advanced creature simple template. At 17th level, the number of swarms he summons increases to 3d3. This ability replaces suggestion."


Vatras wrote:
And anything that gets you critters out of the thin air almost instantly and anywhere has to be (su) as well.

Interesting, I will look up what other Bardic performances that summon stuff are...Song of the Fallen (Sp), Shadow Servant (Sp), Shadow Puppets (Sp). These are the Only examples in the PRD that summon stuff. So I guess I have my answer. Thanks for the help. :)


Also, abilities without such descriptors are considered natural abilities.

Magic wrote:
Natural Abilities: This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Unless some parent designation classifies them as such, they have no type. For example, the eidolon ability of the summoner has no type. It is not magical. However, it is still treated like a summon and spells out which affects can impact the eidolon such as banishment and dismissal.

How this reasons out during the game is up to you. Like you quoted, Soothing Performance works like wild empathy, which is itself an extraordinary ability. It would make sense that this would carry over but the argument can be made that it's not. The ability is simply prescribing that in order to do that you need to use up a bardic performance.

Further, for attract rats, I would reason this is not necessarily magic in nature either. You simply attract enough rats that are around, or in the ground or somesuch, enough to the point where you create rat swarms. If you want to play it out as something magic then that's up to you and your GM.

As for provoking, susceptibility to antimagic field, etc. I would argue they don't provoke, and they aren't affected by an AMF because they are covered under a designation that doesn't say they are. Similarly, they can't be dispelled and spell resistance doesn't apply.


Buri Reborn wrote:

Also, abilities without such descriptors are considered natural abilities.

Magic wrote:
Natural Abilities: This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Unless some parent designation classifies them as such, they have no type. For example, the eidolon ability of the summoner has no type. It is not magical. However, it is still treated like a summon and spells out which affects can impact the eidolon such as banishment and dismissal.

How this reasons out during the game is up to you. Like you quoted, Soothing Performance works like wild empathy, which is itself an extraordinary ability. It would make sense that this would carry over but the argument can be made that it's not. The ability is simply prescribing that in order to do that you need to use up a bardic performance.

Further, for attract rats, I would reason this is not necessarily magic in nature either. You simply attract enough rats that are around, or in the ground or somesuch, enough to the point where you create rat swarms. If you want to play it out as something magic then that's up to you and your GM.

As for provoking, susceptibility to antimagic field, etc. I would argue they don't provoke, and they aren't affected by an AMF because they are covered under a designation that doesn't say they are. Similarly, they can't be dispelled and spell resistance doesn't apply.

This all makes good sense, but than why call them Bardic Performances at all? Just to use up rounds of BP?? I repeat these are the ONLY 2 bardic performances in the entire PRD(CRB, UM, UC, ACG, APG) without a type(Su, Sp, Ex). Seems much more likely that as the first bard archetype written in Ultimate Magic it just got missed.

If constantly walking around with hundreds of rats ready to swarm where you want them to, is not at least a Ex ability, nothing is extraordinary.

There is also the fact that the description says he "summons" the rats...


It says it works like wild empathy, so it'd be Ex.

The other one sounds so Sp, but doesn't actually say so. Probably just an error.


Melkiador wrote:

It says it works like wild empathy, so it'd be Ex.

The other one sounds so Sp, but doesn't actually say so. Probably just an error.

Agreed.

Liberty's Edge

They should have a descriptor, so that is an error.
As the majority of the performances are SU I would say that they are SU (note that even some ability that work like spells (the base bard shooting performance, as an example, cast mass cure serious wounds but it is SU) unless something clearly indicate differently.
There should be a thread for the product in the appropriate section forum, maybe it is worth checking it to see if there some Dev comment there and to signal this for an errata.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Missing type(Su, Sp, Ex) for several bard performances...WHY? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.