# 5-13 Weapon in the Rift GM Discussion *Spoilers*

### GM Discussion

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John Compton wrote:

Yes, there does appear to be a hiccup in the puzzle's solution in the text. I have reviewed it and caught the error for upcoming correction.

Thanks for the clarification John! Running this tonight, so I've been watching the thread hoping for an answer to Andrew's query.

 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Upper Midwest aka Silbeg

John Compton wrote:

I think I follow, Andrew. Instead of asking about ascending/descending order, which suggests vertical orientation, I think you're asking about horizontal sequence (i.e. Is there a difference between 3–5–9 and 5–3–9?).

Yes, the horizontal sequence is important.
Yes, there does appear to be a hiccup in the puzzle's solution in the text. I have reviewed it and caught the error for upcoming correction.
** spoiler omitted **

Ninja and all that

Thank you, John. We all appreciate that you are taking the time to correct what was apparently an error. When corrected, this is a solvable puzzle, and one that players will feel a sense of accomplishment when they complete it. The clue were tough, and there are obviously a few ways to interpret (but I think only one way to get the numbers to fit).

Again, thank you.

DM Beckett wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:

I don't know, I don't read the clues for Dial 1 like you do, so 6,7,9,- makes sense to me. Dial 4 I think was a misprint, with the 2 and the 5 being in the wrong order. (there are more than a few misprint errors I noticed. This is really the only one that matters too much to me, if it is infact a misprint)

I don't think they are supposed to be in ascending order.

Can you explain how the word "reborn" has anything to do with 7?

"Seventh: An image of Iomedae appeared at a shrine to Aroden in Absalom, healing anyone virtuous who touched it and burning wicked folk who came too near. When she later became a goddess, the shrine was expanded into a temple dedicated to her, named the Seventh Church."

It's archaic, but "an image" or a "shade" can refer to a ghost. That's how I read it, that she had died at some point, (she after all become a saint, which requires them to die), but her ghost (not the undead creature, her spirit), appeared in the temple and healed the good and harmed the wicked.

So if you reread it like "The Ghost of Iomedae appeared at a shrine to Aroden in Absalom, healing anyone virtuous who touched it and burning wicked folk who came too near."

Alternately, you could read "image" as "Icon" (as in a Christian Icon, so a picture of virgin mary, again implies she died).

Finally, the last half of the line "When she later became a goddess" again strongly implies being "reborn".

That's how I read it anyway.

:)

Ok, I see where you are going with that. I think for this puzzle though, that was a little esoteric. It seems that each of Iomedae's acts had a direct link to the phrase. Like the name of a city being explicitly in the line or the name of a battle or badguy.

In this case, the knight-saving blood and absalom were the direct links.

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I ran this on Saturday. My table couldn't figure out the puzzle. Ithe GM couldn't figure out how they were supposed to solve the puzzle. I knew they would have trouble with it so I set a timer at 15 minutes when they had the clues. After 15 minutes I called it, triggered the trap (no damage) and we moved on.

Is it the intention that the hound archons attack immediately (hostile implies 'roll initiative') or give the PCs a chance to talk and make the diplomacy check. If the latter, would failure lead to combat or at least an ultimatum to leave or die? I feel like if I say to the players 'roll init' they automatically assume they are supposed to defeat the archons. I actually like this idea over giving them a chance to talk outside of initiative. It cuts down on the metagaming. Most PCs are going to beat the archons on initiative. If they open up with offensive action then the archons are really acting in self-defense. If a character is truly good, they may hold their action or do something defensive. Or even parley--what a concept!. But if initiative is not rolled it is almost guaranteed not to become a fight.

My players actually killed the Shemhazian demon on round four. The zen archer got hot on the dice and started punching holes in the thing with his holy bow. I stayed with the scripted fight but I think somehow after two arrow crits in a round it should ignore Olystria and put an end to the archer.

Last, are there any reporting notes?? It seems like if Olystria dies or the weapon is destroyed--these things are pertinent to the future of the crusade. I didn't see any reporting instructions at the end of the scenario.

Doug, my suggestion is if a character starts attacking the big guy, especially with serious damage, he would chomp them for 2d6+12, and 2d4 str drain, and haul them like a loogee 10' away (awesome blow).

On the hound archon's. The fact diplo stuff is written as an option leads me to believe they only attack if the PCs enter the room and try to get past them before talking them down. Additionally the rules of diplomacy say it takes minutes per check and typically can't be done in combat. So if you ask for an init it will almost certainly be a fight.

Doug Miles wrote:
I ran this on Saturday. My table couldn't figure out the puzzle. Ithe GM couldn't figure out how they were supposed to solve the puzzle. I knew they would have trouble with it so I set a timer at 15 minutes when they had the clues. After 15 minutes I called it, triggered the trap (no damage) and we moved on.

I gave a breakdown on solving the puzzle above, if that helps.

Doug Miles wrote:
Is it the intention that the hound archons attack immediately (hostile implies 'roll initiative') or give the PCs a chance to talk and make the diplomacy check. If the latter, would failure lead to combat or at least an ultimatum to leave or die? I feel like if I say to the players 'roll init' they automatically assume they are supposed to defeat the archons. I actually like this idea over giving them a chance to talk outside of initiative. It cuts down on the metagaming. Most PCs are going to beat the archons on initiative. If they open up with offensive action then the archons are really acting in self-defense. If a character is truly good, they may hold their action or do something defensive. Or even parley--what a concept!. But if initiative is not rolled it is almost guaranteed not to become a fight.

From page 11:

They have difficulty recognizing the Iomedaen faithful that should be friends from demons. When the PCs first encounter the archons, the outsiders are hostile, though cautiously optimistic that they might
have an opportunity to escape their imprisonment, so the PCs have a brief opportunity to change the archons’ attitude with Diplomacy check
(DC 28 for Subtier 5–6, DC 25 for Subtier 8–9). Ensuring them that the PCs have the means to secure their release grants up to a +4 bonus on Diplomacy checks depending on how confident and specific the PCs are in their promises. The archons constantly scan the PCs with detect evil, and each evil aura they detect (such as from clerics of evil gods, evil familiars, or even Thassilonian brands) imposes a cumulative –4 penalty to the check. Failing to convince the archons not to attack leads to violence.

Doug Miles wrote:

My players actually killed the Shemhazian demon on round four. The zen archer got hot on the dice and started punching holes in the thing with his holy bow. I stayed with the scripted fight but I think somehow after two arrow crits in a round it should ignore Olystria and put an end to the archer.

Last, are there any reporting notes?? It seems like if Olystria dies or the weapon is destroyed--these things are pertinent to the future of the crusade. I didn't see any reporting instructions at the end of the scenario.

From page 20:

Primary Success Conditions
The PCs successfully complete their main mission so long as they activate the weapon in Ghalcor’s Tower using at least 14 charges. Doing so earns each PC 1 Prestige Point and the Ghalcor’s Spellcraft and Mendevian Commendation boons on her Chronicle sheet.

Secondary Success Conditions
The PCs successfully complete their secondary success condition if they both activate the weapon in Ghalcor’s Tower using at least 17 charges and prevent Ollysta Zadrian from dying during the scenario. Doing so earns each PC 1 Prestige Point.

So if the weapon is destroyed, mission failed. If Ollysta dies, characters hand their heads in shame and no extra PP. There really was not "do players choose A or B" option in this one, so no need to report those.

Thanks Beckett. I made a couple of errors, one of which was I gave the players a second chance at diplomacy after they failed by less than 5 the first time. I overlooked the bit at the end, which should have triggered init.

What do you guys have the archons say when the PCs enter the room? I just had them demand the PCs leave or suffer the consequences.

I thought it would be appropriate to report if the weapon was destroyed or if Olystria died but apparently it won't make a difference in the metacampaign. It seemed like a mistake that it wasn't in there.

Andrew, the archer was blasting away at the demon from outside its reach. The script says the demon breaks a hole in the wall, but later has to take a round to make an opening big enough to enter through. I pictured its head and shoulders fitting into the tower. In hindsight, I should have used telekinesis to disarm him. Then sunder the bow >:)

"Halt. Forsake Asmodeus publically, on the spot, for all to hear, no reversies, and all of your Thrunian scum, or die."

I forget the page, but its in there somewhere. I swear. . .

J/K

That being said, a round taken to disarm or chomp a PC should probably delay the countdown.

And they can track if Ollysta died based on PP earned.

Doug Miles wrote:
My players actually killed the Shemhazian demon on round four. The zen archer got hot on the dice and started punching holes in the thing with his holy bow. I stayed with the scripted fight but I think somehow after two arrow crits in a round it should ignore Olystria and put an end to the archer.

Wait. They took down a CR 16 critter in four rounds?

Yeah, I think the shemhazian demon ignores the crusaders and goes after the person doing that much damage to it. Script or no script. Just sayin...

Andrew Christian wrote:
Doug, my suggestion is if a character starts attacking the big guy, especially with serious damage, he would chomp them for 2d6+12, and 2d4 str drain, and haul them like a loogee 10' away (awesome blow).

Hold on, that sounds familiar...

Yeah, I stole it from you.

 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Upper Midwest aka Silbeg

In regards to the puzzle-trap, what happens if someone disarms the trap. Since it is perceivable as a trap, and has a disarm DC, there must be a result of said disarming.

Off the top of my head, I would say that the disarm would not get through the locks (which are controlled by the spells in place), but might prevent the energy blast from happening?

On the the hand, it might be like air brakes. When (magic) pressure is applied by solving the puzzle, the brakes are opened. Otherwise, they remain firmly closed.

Inquiring minds want to know!!!

As an FYI - my rogue (who evidently could have disarmed the trap on a roll of 10, I believe) did not even try, because I was so flabbergasted by our solution not working (which we now know was a error).

Getting ready to run this in SD, Thank you for the clarification of the puzzle, it was driving me crazy! I have two questions concerning the Allip encounter.

1. The DC for Ghalcor's Touch of Insanity is 19 at tier 5-6, yet at tier 8-9 it is only 18. Haven't been able to figure out why the DC is lower at the higher tier.

2. Relentless Compulsion: How often is he able to use this ability? Or is it just once and done?

John Compton wrote:

I think I follow, Andrew. Instead of asking about ascending/descending order, which suggests vertical orientation, I think you're asking about horizontal sequence (i.e. Is there a difference between 3–5–9 and 5–3–9?).

Yes, the horizontal sequence is important.
Yes, there does appear to be a hiccup in the puzzle's solution in the text. I have reviewed it and caught the error for upcoming correction.
** spoiler omitted **

Ninja and all that

actual game play information...spoilers be here!:
We just played this on Tuesday subtier 8-9 on hard mode. Nathan was running it for us. When we put in our combination and pulled the lever... Nathan said something I didnt quite catch but... the door opened so I really didnt care.

So you could have diplomacized the fiendish hound archons? That never occurred to us. We just beat all 3 of them down.

After the allips (I fricken hate allips!) we had no idea that the armor had any significance and thus didnt even ask about it.

The final battle... just insane. We finally activated on the final round before Ollystra was to die. I count it as a stunning victory and I shall recant the tale to my grandchildren one day.

Played this through last night. Very fun and challenging!

Our group (well, the half of us that like puzzles) really enjoyed using the Acts of Iomedae as the key to the cipher. We were stumped when our first attempt did not succeed, rearranged where the blanks were, and then were totally stumped when that still didn't work. Our GM allowed an int check and then gave us, "You're sure that you have the right passages, and the right numbers for each lock." We eventually re-ordered them, but it was rather frustrating.

If I were GMing, I would have, at that point, allowed a Kn: Religion or Kn: history for a hint like "Ghalcor was famous for his intelligence and compulsive need for order." Or even a Kn: Eng to notice that the traps in the corridor were laid out according to an ascending mathematical pattern, or something like that. If the scenario were changed so the numbers matched the order of the phrases, that would be ideal.

Our GM prompted us before the ghost faded with a, "Do you have any questions for him?" When we asked how many charges were needed to activate the weapon, the ghost told us how many it was designed to use, and the minimum number required to activate it. That was very helpful information! We never noticed the suits in his room.

Read upthread. The scenario has an error on the order of the numbers.

 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

This scenario is insanely awesome. Can't wait to run it.

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
This scenario is insanely awesome. Can't wait to run it.

I agree! I ran it twice at Genghis Con in Denver this past weekend.

No Takers on Hard Mode!

 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Rusty Ironpants wrote:
No Takers on Hard Mode!

If we hadn't swapped our 7th level Dragon Disciple to the low-tier table and taken a 5th level Druid in, I would have been up for it. My Life Oracle had Remove Paralysis, but I don't know how well we would have handled that Blasphemy.

Hard mode is fun but not exceptionally difficult, it however does become a will save or lose at the end (as if you do not have 2 functional PC's you will lose the final encounter), we fortunately had 2 functional PC's who spent their rounds handling the mission while the other 3 PC's stood like statues (as I still believe that season 4 and 5 are the most balanced with 5 players).

Just did hard mode on monday night. we had two life oracles 7,8 a 9 inquisitor an 8 multiclass monster and a 9 halfling roc ranger. we actually got the cr 16 super demon down to under 40 hp before he fled...aslo the paladin chick didn't die. twas a fun night.

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Played this at a local convention on Saturday. Had a blast! (Two of my comrades literally had a blast...)

I think my main complaint would probably be the door puzzle. I love that it involved Golarion lore, and in particular it was fun that it centered around the deity of the cleric I was playing (Thomas the Tiefling Hero). :D Even so, it was a puzzle for the players instead of the characters. Sure, there was a Knowledge check to get the handouts, but that's basically just a binary "determine whether it's possible or impossible" sort of a thing. Actually overcoming the challenge is done 100% out of character, which is bothersome to me. I hope never to encounter such a thing again, or at least not without a mechanic in place whereby there can be a difference between a 7 INT barbarian and a 24 INT wizard's contribution to the solving of a puzzle.

That said, the rest of the scenario was pretty fun. Thomas both identified the very tired hound archons, and also talked them down and set them free. The allip was cake, because we had two sun domain clerics (Thomas and pregen Kyra, each adding our level to channel damage against undead) plus a sorcerer with magic missile. Boom, done.

One person had the thought to ask how many charges the weapon needed. No one thought to ask if there were environment suits... Thomas had a hard decision to make once Ollysta went down: save her (breath of life) before activating the weapon, or let her die and focus on activating the weapon as soon as possible. He chose winning the war over healing one fallen soldier, but it was a difficult choice, and his inability to save her will stay in his memory. Similarly, when the holy word went off, the already-at-negative-HP neutral barbarian was toasted. He was about 10ft too far away for Thomas to get to him with a breath of life.

Naturally, both were able to get raised, but it was still painful for him. He won't forget the cost of this war anytime soon.

The holy word should not kill any characters unless they had an evil aura (cleric of an evil deity).

Weapon in the Rift pg 19 wrote:

If the weapon activated with at least 17 charges, this works
like a holy word spell with a caster level of 20 and a saving
throw DC equal to the number of charges used. Halve
the effect’s caster level against lawful neutral, neutral,
and chaotic neutral creatures (unless such a creature has
an evil aura).
So the holy word would have an effective caster level of 10 against a 5th level barbarian,
Holy Word wrote:
Up to caster level –5 Paralyzed, blinded, deafened

I know this because I accidentally ruled a PC dead on Saturday. He was a 5th level CN druid, made the save much to his relief, then died from the secondary damage. Luckily I spotted my error and reversed 'Dead' to 'Paralyzed' after making a sincere apology.

 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Keep in mind that the protective suits in the storage room add 6 to the characters effective HD against the weapons effect.

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@Doug - Whoops, guess that got missed. Dunno if it can be fixed for that player, but I'll pretend in my PC's continuity that he didn't die. :D

@TOZ - Yeah, no one thought to ask if there were space suits available.

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Keep in mind that the protective suits in the storage room add 6 to the characters effective HD against the weapons effect.

Yes, luckily the second group that I ran for, which was 5 neutral, one good character, all had time to put on the suits. They had not pulled the prism from it's socket in the alchemy lab before they fought Ghalcor. If they had not put on the suits then activating the weapon with 24 charges would have been painful.

 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Jiggy wrote:
@TOZ - Yeah, no one thought to ask if there were space suits available.

I think my VC was a little lenient with things and that helped us succeed. I'm sorry Thomas chose the weapon over the paladin. Sierra was lucky enough to be in position to catch Zadrian and the crusaders in her double channel nova, earning her SC boon for the scenario.

I wish they had not watered it down like that, but I understand why.

Out of three tables I've run so far, only one group asked about the suits and naturally used them when they got the explanation.

 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Doug Miles wrote:
I wish they had not watered it down like that

I have to admit, part of me enjoyed having there finally be just one situation where neutral wasn't The Best Alignment.

Jiggy wrote:

@Doug - Whoops, guess that got missed. Dunno if it can be fixed for that player, but I'll pretend in my PC's continuity that he didn't die. :D

@TOZ - Yeah, no one thought to ask if there were space suits available.

Jiggy,

I think the Barbarian was already dead. The magus was dead or near dead when the weapon went off.

 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Uh, we didn't have a magus.

Hey All! (Author Here)

I appreciate all the feedback and I'm glad you guys are enjoying it as much as I did, writing it!

The puzzle was a difficult one to come up with because it was something that John and I wanted to create that was unique, but yet still able to be completed by the players. However, I'm sorry it has given people so much trouble. Going forward, I'm sure John will make sure to keep a puzzle's complexity in mind for future.

With all of the feedback in this thread, if I may request, please put your thoughts (bad or good) as a review for the scenario. This is what John and the others go by in determining if authors like myself are able to write for Paizo again!

Thanks again everyone! :)

jon dehning wrote:
Doug Miles wrote:
My players actually killed the Shemhazian demon on round four. The zen archer got hot on the dice and started punching holes in the thing with his holy bow. I stayed with the scripted fight but I think somehow after two arrow crits in a round it should ignore Olystria and put an end to the archer.

Wait. They took down a CR 16 critter in four rounds?

Yeah, I think the shemhazian demon ignores the crusaders and goes after the person doing that much damage to it. Script or no script. Just sayin...

Our team took it out on round 2 with a hasted flying paladin getting a lucky lighteny of righteousness.

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Hey Nathan, I hope you get the opportunity to pen another PFS scenario. This is easily my favourite GMing experience I've had with Season 5 so far.

Nathan King 788 wrote:
The puzzle was a difficult one to come up with because it was something that John and I wanted to create that was unique, but yet still able to be completed by the players. However, I'm sorry it has given people so much trouble. Going forward, I'm sure John will make sure to keep a puzzle's complexity in mind for future.

I don't think the issue is with the complexity of the puzzle, more in that — as Jiggy points out — the Knowledge checks are there to allow you to gain the requisite information to solve it (it would be near-impossible otherwise), all the figuring out of the order is completely relying on player intelligence, not character.

Jiggy wrote:
Actually overcoming the challenge is done 100% out of character, which is bothersome to me. I hope never to encounter such a thing again, or at least not without a mechanic in place whereby there can be a difference between a 7 INT barbarian and a 24 INT wizard's contribution to the solving of a puzzle.

If there was some mechanic in place to allow for the characters to gain insight into the puzzle's workings, it would allow the INT-based characters to demonstrate their smarts. Even something as simple as an INT check to figure out the relationships of the first line would let the wizard come off as figuring it out before everyone else, as his intelligence befits.

Other than that, I liked the puzzle. It's a cool injection of a bunch of Iomedae lore that helps bring flavour to the setting, and it's not as fiendishly difficult as the Grand Lodge cipher in Library of the Lion.

Jiggy!:
Glad to hear you got to play this scenario. How'd your Siege of the Diamond City go?

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Went great; almost plane shift'd a [REDACTED] to Heaven. ;)

Jiggy wrote:
Uh, we didn't have a magus.

The woman to yer right. Wasn't she playing a magus? Or am I confusing the tables?

Edit: I am! Too many barbarians. I remember which barbarian died at your table now.

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Yeah, "the woman to my right" was Daniel.

Jiggy wrote:
Went great; almost plane shift'd a [REDACTED] to Heaven. ;)

Thats a tough thing to do. Approach it with it's huge reach possibly provoking and getting strength drained. Makign a melee touch attack strength drained. Beating Sr. Then it failing the save.

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Different "redacted", Finlanderboy. Something special from the spoiler addressed to me. Oh, and it involved a charging bite attack with a held charge. :D

Jiggy wrote:
Different "redacted", Finlanderboy. Something special from the spoiler addressed to me. Oh, and it involved a charging bite attack with a held charge. :D

Ohh I get it. I was thinking you a tremendous gambler.

This is the GM thread you do not have to hide things.

On hard mode for our group the most dangerous part was the alip with the wis damage.

Our two big hitters played bonekeep 2.

There was a chance during our game our paladin would have killed the bard.

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Jiggy wrote:
Yeah, "the woman to my right" was Daniel.

I will be sure to tell him that.

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I hid because it wasn't relevant to the thread. Also, Jiggy, that is probably the most badass way to deliver a plane shift spell.

Doug Miles wrote:

The holy word should not kill any characters unless they had an evil aura (cleric of an evil deity).

Weapon in the Rift pg 19 wrote:

If the weapon activated with at least 17 charges, this works
like a holy word spell with a caster level of 20 and a saving
throw DC equal to the number of charges used. Halve
the effect’s caster level against lawful neutral, neutral,
and chaotic neutral creatures (unless such a creature has
an evil aura).

Thanks for pointing this out Doug. I foolishly missed it the time I ran it. Fortunately all non-Good characters involved had — some hastily — donned suits to protect them from the blast.

I notice a few GMs in this thread pointing out players missing the suits/not asking about them. I made sure to emphasise their existence enough that the players asked Ghalcor about them after defeating him. They only receive a brief mention in the first sentence of room description otherwise, and are overshadowed by Ghalcor's appearance. Difficult to pay attention to scenery when there's an Allip to fight.

By the way, one other item of note:

Weapon in the Rift, p10 wrote:
A PC can learn the following by examining a sacred prism with a successful DC 20 Craft (alchemy, planes, or religion) or Spellcraft check.

I assume that list should be Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Planes or Religion), or Spellcraft check? That's how I ran it, as Craft (Planes or Religion) doesn't make a whole heap of sense.

 Venture-Lieutenant, Kentucky—Lexington

Doug Miles wrote:

My table couldn't figure out the puzzle.

I set a timer at 15 minutes when they had the clues. After 15 minutes I called it, triggered the trap (no damage) and we moved on.

I played this and we only got one row correct after 2 hours when we just beat the door/wall down with an Adamantine weapon.

I wish we our GM did that (trigger trap and move on.)

Ultimately the GM called the game after the Hound Archons for time and we all got 0 XP 900 gp sheets.

I hate puzzles with a passion, hate them. I'm clearly the minority, because most people loved it. So don't take this as a bash on the module (what little of it I witnessed.) This is more of a "we also couldn't solve the puzzle" and it cost us the opportunity to finish the module.

Ok, is it me or is this venture captain Jorsal handing you off to Olysta a little redundant?

The puzzle

Ok, things like that really, really REAAAAALLLY need to be double and triple checked. There are going to be a lot of confused and frustrated players because of that, since not everyone reads the boards.

A broken sword is reborn in knight-saving blood so that Absalom might withstand evil.

The corrected answer:Line 1: 6–9–7–*

The Blanks bother me. They leave you with no idea with how many pieces to to break up the sentence into. The player could try to divide the sentence up 4 ways instead of three and get

A broken sword
is reborn
knight-saving blood
Absalom might withstand evil.

getting 6 7 9 7

Line 2: Inspired by her courage by fight of the righteous, the Black Prince was judged in the Halls of Aroden.

4–8–*–*

Inspired by her courage by fight of the righteous, the Black Prince was judged in the Halls of Aroden.

4 8

The coma helps indicate that there are 2 verses here, but without that in the first part its anyone's guess how many there are supposed to be.

Line 3: By escaping the wound, her royal servants helped her slay the King of the Barrowood, ascending her to godhood.

the link to 1 is a little loose here. I'd be inclined to put a blank there, followed by a 1 and then an 11.

the right answer is 1–3–1–1.. i cannot connect that verse to that number pattern, at all.

Line 4: Because of The Battle of Three Sorrows (5) the cities of Eleder (2) and Kantaria (10) prospered with freedom and wealth.

5–2–1–0

I really think we're going to have fun with this adventure, but something as precise as this puzzle lock needs equally precise rules for it. The number of numbers referenced in each line seems to be incredibly arbitrary.

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At the very least the needs to have the solution spelled out to them very clearly. Being given a puzzle and just the solution (especially an incorrect solution) is a poor choice IMHO.

BNW it seems arbitrary initially however after the players write everything out they should see that no verse is repeated (except if they make an error) and they will try with 1-2 minor variations (to clean up duplicates) and eventually pass.

For those of you worried about how quickly events transpire after the fight with Ghalcor, I'll point out this line in the "Development" for room A7:

Quote:
Once the PCs destroy the allip, there is a brief respite before a calm and peaceful ghost of Ghalcor rises from his corpse and bows to the Pathfinders.

I gave the PCs a few rounds to gather up and cast spells after the allip fight (a couple had been commanded to "flee" during the fight). They still neglected to check out the leather suits in the room, but, oh well. I would still keep this interlude short just to keep up the pressure on the players.

 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Upper Midwest aka Silbeg

Caderyn wrote:
BNW it seems arbitrary initially however after the players write everything out they should see that no verse is repeated (except if they make an error) and they will try with 1-2 minor variations (to clean up duplicates) and eventually pass.

I'd agree with this statement.

When we played it, I was worried that there would be replication (and perhaps some that were missed). However, once we started writing it out, it became pretty clear that all clues were used only once.

And, with the correction on the solution, we'd have had it on the first try!!!

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