Old women in fantasy


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Scarab Sages

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Shifty wrote:

Right, my next character will be a old and cranky female Hellknight completely based on Margaret Thatcher.

Will have to have 'Land of hope and glory' on my phone or something for every time she makes a speech

"Some say that I am wrong for smiting the undead. For attacking them on sight, burning them to ash, to be carried away on the wind.

They say we should treat the restless dead with 'respect'.
'Parley' with them.
'Negotiate' with them.
Ask them nicely, to return to their dismal holes in the ground, and not hurt us.
Well, you Turn them if you want. But THIS Lady is not for Turning!"


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Slaunyeh wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:

So saying that LotR was one of the most boring series of books I ever read would be a bad idea?

Bring it, nerds!

Electra is one of my favourite superhero movies. What? :p

I refer you both to the following thread:

"Please Don't Pull My Geek Card!" - Confessions


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No mention of Impa from The Legend of Zelda?

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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The 8th Dwarf wrote:

DQ you are one of the wisest, calmest, most eloquent speakers for sanity and a fair go for all, on these boards....

But LotR books boring, NOOOOOOOOOOOO! Don't tell me you are one of those people I have a sad face now :-(

;-b

If it makes you feel any better, I still greatly admire Tolkien's medieval scholarship and poetic translations.

As to other things on this thread, I wholeheartedly approve of Hellknight Thatcher.

Also someone brought up the RED movies, and now I want to play a character based on Victoria.


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Cannot believe no mentioned Dragon Age.

I mean come on, Wynne and Knight-Commander Meredith?

FLEMETH?


Voltron64 wrote:
Cannot believe no mentioned Dragon Age.

Did you actually read the thread?


All of those were mentioned on the first page Volt.

Scarab Sages

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Ograh, from the Dark Crystal.


Lord Snow wrote:

Wait, are you saying Flemeth is too old to be considered old? I disagree. She could body shift again if she wants, right? meaning she is quite comfortable in the body of an old woman. Which goes to show she is more than an old women in body, she is an old woman is heart.

Plus, nobody disqualified Gandalf from being an old man just because he is EXTREMELY old, or because he dies and reborn and things like that. If he gets to be an old man, Flemeth gets to be an old woman.

I disqualified Flemeth because she just doesn't feel like an old lady to me. There's something very off about her (besides the obvious). She's a very strong, interesting character, but she just doesn't have the right attitude in some small way. Maybe it's the fact that she knows she'll never die?

I don't generally consider immortals to be old in the same way as mortals are. If you're ten thousand years old and still look like a teenager, and have that youthful spirit...you're a 10k year old teenager.

Flemeth is a bit of an odd duck in that she CAN'T just body swap at will, unless I'm mistaken, she has to have a specially prepared body (one of her own blood). At the very least, she gets lesser effects from another body. I'm not sure exactly what the explanation for her still being around in *shudders* Dragon Age 2 was, I only could get myself through half the game.


Rynjin wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:

Wait, are you saying Flemeth is too old to be considered old? I disagree. She could body shift again if she wants, right? meaning she is quite comfortable in the body of an old woman. Which goes to show she is more than an old women in body, she is an old woman is heart.

Plus, nobody disqualified Gandalf from being an old man just because he is EXTREMELY old, or because he dies and reborn and things like that. If he gets to be an old man, Flemeth gets to be an old woman.

I disqualified Flemeth because she just doesn't feel like an old lady to me. There's something very off about her (besides the obvious). She's a very strong, interesting character, but she just doesn't have the right attitude in some small way. Maybe it's the fact that she knows she'll never die?

I don't generally consider immortals to be old in the same way as mortals are. If you're ten thousand years old and still look like a teenager, and have that youthful spirit...you're a 10k year old teenager.

Flemeth is a bit of an odd duck in that she CAN'T just body swap at will, unless I'm mistaken, she has to have a specially prepared body (one of her own blood). At the very least, she gets lesser effects from another body. I'm not sure exactly what the explanation for her still being around in *shudders* Dragon Age 2 was, I only could get myself through half the game.

No where does the game confirm that Flemeth is only around because of body jumping, or that she needs a specific body. Someone tells you this is the case, based on information you can not access, so you just have to trust them because they totally would never ever lie to you to get you to do something they want because they are such a completely trustworthy person.

And in two it basically boils down to a contingency plan.

Flemeth definately counts as an 'old woman' and anyone who wouldn't kill to have her in a party would be missing out.

However any group that says they don't want old women in a party when they already have old men in my opinion deserve to find a cursed sex swapping girdle with a much MUCH higher identify DC.


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Gran'ma Ben from Bone is one ass-kicking old lady; I can only imagine what her Str was before the age modifiers!


Man, I remember when Bone was in the comics in the newspaper where my grandparents lived.


Voltron64 wrote:

Cannot believe no mentioned Dragon Age.

I mean come on, Wynne and Knight-Commander Meredith?

FLEMETH?

I remember when my char picked a fight with Flemeth. I thought it was going well, and then she transformed.

I lost...


I have yet to beat Flemeth on any difficulty besides Easy, in all my Dragon Age playthroughs.

I bring dishonor on my family.


*Flemeth laughs*


Most players I've encountered, both male and female, want to loo some degree of "hot" when playing female characters.

Webstore Gninja Minion

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Removed a post. Rape jokes aren't funny.


Those physical stat hits are a pain, too.

I wrote a venerable female NPC witch as an add-on for a NeoExodus adventure, though I don't know if she ever saw the light of day.

The Exchange

Rynjin wrote:

I have yet to beat Flemeth on any difficulty besides Easy, in all my Dragon Age playthroughs.

I bring dishonor on my family.

I killed her on nightmare difficulty, but it was on my second playthrough, when I was playing a totally busted minmaxed archer. It's amazing how much easier it is to kill giant monsters with AOE attacks when the main output of damage in the party is standing far away and DPSing calmly while the silly little tank is drawing attention to himself. On my first playthrough I was playing the opposite - a two weapon fighter with high will and charisma scores, to which I added choosing the "champion" prestige class, or whatever it's called - meaning I was roleplaying an actual leader, not a death machine :)

Through favouring Wynne and conserving a LOT of health potions during most of the game, I managed to take Flemeth down on hard difficulty even in that playthrough. Not going to say it didn't take me a dozen tries, but I emerged victorious eventually.

Anyway, Flemeth feels very much like an old woman to me, but YMMV I suppose. As you said, she is actually ancient which for me only means "even older", and while she COULD spend her time as a powerful dragon or many other forms, she chooses to be an old woman most of the time. To me it seems like this is the state she prefers. Just like you could be a million years old and look like a teenager, you can be a million years old and look like a 70 year old lady. And feel the part, too.


Interesting. I am a fan of old sages, so have had my fair share of both ladies and men in that role, as NPCs, but even though our groups have had a wide variety of unusual character concepts, I must admit that this is one I don't think we've ever got to.

Now, a few years back, my mom, stepdad and an old (female) friend of the family did sit in for a couple of sessions, and we had a good time. But I believe the two ladies (in their late 'fifties at the time) played a half elf, and elf, respectively, so who knows how young they probably still looked, despite their ages?!

Dark Archive

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In the Jade Regent AP, there's Koya, old cleric of Desna (whose long face has a touch of Cher in it, to my eye), as one of the four NPC choices for your PC to be affiliated with. I picked her, because I knew nobody else would (and guessed correctly that multiple people would pick Ameiko, since the write up pretty much screams 'Pick Ameiko! She's awesomest!' and gives those who do the flat out best campaign trait option, a potential +1 to all saves!).

Sadly, while the other three (Ameiko, Shalelu and Sandru) have romance options mentioned in the Players Guide, Koya does not.

The clichés seem to vary by setting, but old women are generally bad, as old is not considered attractive, and unattractive people are generally villains.

There's a medieval sort of notion that if someone in fantasy art is pock-marked or diseased or crippled or ugly or infirm or fat, it's a warning that their disfigurement or unsightliness is a physical warning of some sort of moral deficiency or personal failing. That probably shouldn't apply to someone looking old (since everyone gets there, eventually, barring misfortune...), but occasionally does, particularly in the case of older women, with missing teeth or milky eyes or stringy hair.

We totally need an Iconic Betty White, or Maggie Smith, or Helen Mirren, or Tina Turner, to set that record straight!

On the other hand, one of the features of aging, stark white hair, seems to be a staple of young hotties in Golarion... :)


Mikaze wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Nanny Ogg!

Hell. Yes.

Also, have they not seen Red?

DeathQuaker wrote:
Also someone brought up the RED movies, and now I want to play a character based on Victoria.

Helen Mirren is badass.

And apparently I need to finally start reading the Discworld series.


Shifty wrote:

Right, my next character will be a old and cranky female Hellknight completely based on Margaret Thatcher.

Will have to have 'Land of hope and glory' on my phone or something for every time she makes a speech

She should have a rival Hellknight antagonist.


Well said, Set. I might make my next character a strong old woman in a martial role or something similar. After I'm done with playing my most recent character -- my very first gnome ever (in 6 years of playing DnD).

Silver Crusade

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Katara from Legend of Korra counts. Admittedly we see far more of her as a teenager.

Lin Beifong is a badass as well but I wouldn't call her old.

Sovereign Court

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The only thing you'll get is that if you disagree on moderating decisions you can write a message or an email to moderating staff, which I am pretty sure just goes to the spam folder and is never read.

Some people have really thin skins, but rape jokes are never funny unless you're in a company of people whom you know very well and are very comfortable with.

The Exchange

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And by "rape jokes are not funny" the intention is (obviously) not that the joke is not funny, it's that it's distasteful and has no place in a forum like this.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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Hama wrote:
The only thing you'll get is that if you disagree on moderating decisions you can write a message or an email to moderating staff, which I am pretty sure just goes to the spam folder and is never read.

We are going OT, but when I have emailed Paizo, I have always gotten a reply.

Scarab Sages

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I didn't see the original joke, so I have no idea if it falls into the category supported by the Jezebel writer, of condemning the act or not.
But that's immaterial; the posting of such a joke is totally off-topic, and works against the intent of the thread.

We are trying to make a list of inspiring older female characters in the fantasy genre, for several reasons.

Apart from adding variety to our games, apart from adding to the believability of our settings, apart from prompting male players to ponder why they so rarely play older PCs or cross-gender, it could encourage publishers to include more of such characters in their products, either as NPCs, or better still, as iconic PCs, actively engaged in the game.
That will hopefully encourage more female players to join or stay in the gaming community, especially ones who are older than the usual target demographic of the games industry advertising departments.

It's harder to justify spending time or money on a hobby, when there are few or no central characters who resemble you. It could be inferred that you aren't welcome, you're not who the hobby is aimed at, so why don't you go off on your way? "The knitting magazines are over on that shelf, Grandma."

There are many female players out there, who've been wrongly taught to think that gaming isn't for them, or did try it, only to be repulsed by juvenile behaviour of GM and players, or the T&A fanservice art.
If that happened in the 70s, 80s or 90s, they could now be mothers, or even grandmothers, seeing their family getting into the hobby that they always wanted to try but never did, or had poor memories of.

It would be great if they could sit in on a session, and see that the industry has moved on, they aren't being told their only choices are helpless victim, or slutty enchantress villain.
They can play the kind of character they want, a character like them, with life experience, without being a decrepit toothless hag.

"This one looks good. Ezrina, the Wizard. Raised a family, and had a successful trading business, before losing it in the financial crash. All her kids have left home, so she loaded up a backpack and walked off to see the world and do all the things she had to put on hold before. She's got her white hair in a bun, like yours, Grandma."

"She looks exactly the kind of sensible person this group needs, to keep you rash kids out of trouble. Go on then, I'll play for a while."


Yeah some players I know of, do consider playing someone of a different sex or gender to be weird. I don't see it that way, it is a broadening of horizons and to get a bit masculinist, the flexing of our roleplaying might (yes, even by playing a demure or "proper" woman).

Grand Lodge

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I play an elderly female dwarf Stonelord paladin in PFS, and I am loving it.

Granny Edelsteen

In terms of character inspiration, she's halfway between Nanny Ogg and The Godfather. Except, when she refers to the family, she calls them her sweeties, and they are the members of the party. She is a massive defense, high constitution and uses the Antagonize feat to draw enemy attacks away from her party members.

I am having a blast playing her and there's been a fair few times where the hardiest member of the group isn't the 7 foot tall half orc brimming with muscles, but the 4 foot tall, 4 foot wide ancient dwarf matriarch strapped in steel.

As far as gender changing the way I roleplay her, I've noticed something pretty strange. Granny Edelsteen doesn't seem to actively care about defeating/slaying/beating down the enemy. She is far more interested in ensuring no harm comes to her kin/adopted kin, and in doing so, the enemies plans tend to fall apart anyway. She doesn't actively wish ill upon the enemy. She sees them as misguided souls that get what's coming to them as soon as they draw steel against the party/family.

Of course, the Lawful Good alignment comes into it a lot, but as a trope, I think the bloodthirsty woman trope, just as the bloodthirsty man trope, doesn't appeal to me. Characters who have more going on in their lives are a bit more interesting than folks who live just for revenge. Granny Edelsteen doesn't talk about what the Aspis Consortium have planned for the party/family, she talks about her husband Henry and her granddaughters Mora and Maureen. It makes adventuring SO MUCH MORE PLEASANT!

I think to roleplay an old woman adventurer successfully, you need to think outside the box, especially so far as mainstream action adventure entertainment goes. But if you realize the realistic, elderly woman motivations, which seem to be based a lot more on love, relationships and bonding, than old man motivations, which seem to be based on rejection of the mainstream, teaching the younger generation values and self-sacrifice against the others, you can have some real fun. Of course, this might be totally different for a pessimist old woman character, but even so, I think you must have that focus on bonding and the importance of social relationships. There is also a lack of selfishness - interest in others achievements becomes a lot more pronounced too.

Come up with a few strong old lady motivations, be prepared to not be too grim and you can really have a ball with old lady adventuring.


Yeah, rping a noble Chelaxian woman was a fun change. Sometimes stories from that game and what my character did and how I acted still come up.

Scarab Sages

KestlerGunner wrote:

Characters who have more going on in their lives are a bit more interesting than folks who live just for revenge. Granny Edelsteen doesn't talk about what the Aspis Consortium have planned for the party/family, she talks about her husband Henry and her granddaughters Mora and Maureen. It makes adventuring SO MUCH MORE PLEASANT!

...But if you realize the realistic, elderly woman motivations, which seem to be based a lot more on love, relationships and bonding, than old man motivations, which seem to be based on rejection of the mainstream, teaching the younger generation values and self-sacrifice against the others, you can have some real fun. Of course, this might be totally different for a pessimist old woman character, but even so, I think you must have that focus on bonding and the importance of social relationships. There is also a lack of selfishness - interest in others achievements becomes a lot more pronounced too.

I think several generations of TV, films, comics, novels and overeager GMs have taught players to never allow their PC to admit to having family or friends, or even aquaintances outside of the PC party.

Most superheroes wear masks, to protect themselves from prosecution for vigilantism, avoid being attacked when off duty, and to protect their non-supered relatives and friends. And can you blame them?
If Peter Parker's identity got out, of course sweet Aunt May would end up kidnapped, or stuffed in the refrigerator.

If GMs want to see PCs with family connections, then as much as it may chafe, to have villains ignore a potential supply of hostages, they may have to do so, or else face the same universal horde of 'Orphan, No Siblings, No Friends' loners every campaign.


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Snorter wrote:
If GMs want to see PCs with family connections, then as much as it may chafe, to have villains ignore a potential supply of hostages, they may have to do so, or else face the same universal horde of 'Orphan, No Siblings, No Friends' loners every campaign.

Oh, it's more fun to play a PC with family, but have them hostilely estranged from said family.

BBEG: "Hah! I have your grandmother! Do what I say or I'll kill her!"
PC: "Go ahead and kill her. You'll do me a favor."
BBEG: "What?"

It actively discourages whoever is running the game from using the family as a supply of hostages. If they try, you can even turn the hostage taking against them... turn the hostage into a disadvantage.

PC: "How about this... You kill her and I'll do what you say. And if you don't kill her, I'll foil your plan. Either way, I win."
BBEG: "This is not how hostage situations work!"

And, to tie back in with the theme of the thread, right about then is a perfect time for the kindly grandma to reveal the 15 levels of Monk she has.


You don't want to hold grandmother, she was quite the dangerous thief in her youth. Some of her old jobs got messy, and it was the era of backstab.

Grandmother escapes and starts killing the villain's guards, picking them off one by one.


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There's always Sir Schmoopy's grandma. She always knew to search for traps.


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DM Under The Bridge wrote:
You don't want to hold grandmother, she was quite the dangerous thief in her youth. Some of her old jobs got messy, and it was the era of backstab.

Some of them get 5x damage on their backstabs with knitting needles.


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That reminds me of an AD&D story, of a thief breaking out of holding and killing every enemy with a piece of cutlery. Then rescuing the party.

I was pleased to see metal gear 3 did this with the great spork escape. Later you find an m60, I still stuck with the spork as long as possible.

Editorial Intern

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My main character right now is an elderly druid. It is Dr. Chrysanthemum Moonbeam to the rescue!

She's actually a lot of fun to play. She is a little hard of hearing This makes up for the fact I'm usually at the other end of the table from the gm in very loud environments. At one point in Way of the Kirin I misheard the mission briefing and thought the gentleman we pathfinders were getting ready for was a kirin himself... I even bought kirin treats from a storefront in part of the mission. Our guest was not amused. They came in handy later on though.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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DM Under The Bridge wrote:

That reminds me of an AD&D story, of a thief breaking out of holding and killing every enemy with a piece of cutlery. Then rescuing the party.

I was pleased to see metal gear 3 did this with the great spork escape. Later you find an m60, I still stuck with the spork as long as possible.

I remember reading a Mage: The Ascention story about a set of really bad dice roles leading the old maid (think female Alfred type) beating a werewolf to death with a silver serving tray. (Something like all successes on her attacks mixed with horrible die roles on the STs part)

I just imagined the Mage coming home terrified for his custos, with her all sorry she ruined the silver set...

Sovereign Court

As far as older female characters go, English Lit has some really great ones, from the villainous Grendel's mother to the scandalous Wyf of Bathe (wife of bath) older women have had great roles. Some of my favorite tales also have the story of women growing older throughout the story, from the roguish Moll Flanders to the wonderful twist on the classical villain Morgan La Fey (Morgaine) in Marion Zimmer Bradley's Mists of Avalon. Female heroes are probably under represented in fantasy and science fiction because for many years it was a genre dominated by male authors, and likely was likely predominantly read by a male audience. There are some great female authors of course, Marion Zimmer Bradley and Ursula K. Le Guin spring to mind, but the male authors dominated, and for whatever reason they didn't seem interested in writing female characters never mind older female characters.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Mrs. Bell played an old lady urban druid Harrower in CoCT. I had to talk her down to 70s from 90s. 70 year olds can walk around without hurting themselves--at 90 most people can die from falling down from standing.

That character was awesome, though.


I'm pretty sure I remember lots of kick butt grannies on Kung-Fu theatre when I was a kid so old lady monk should work nicely.

Grand Lodge

Sadly, I don't think I've ever thought to play an old woman PC. Played female a couple of times - although I usually got so sick of correcting people I typically gave up the ghost about three sessions in.

However, one of the major NPC's in my current homebrew campaign is an elderly dwarven woman; The Anointed Speaker for the Nine Dwarven Holds. (Lv. 5 Aristocrat/Lv. 8 Cleric - Evangelist archetype) I based her loosely on Olenna Tyrell . . . by which I mean I loved the character so much I entirely ripped her off. And then made her a dwarf.

The Exchange

The Wheel of Time series had plenty of women in the "wise old woman" role but as a whole played hell with gender stereotypes in a lot of places.

Sovereign Court

It mostly played with my nerves and my murder instincts...


I would say I'm with the people who think the Lord of the Rings was a boring book, but I can't confirm that, as I never made it past the long, drawn-out introduction describing the number and formation of leaves on every plant in the Shire. So I don't know if it gets better or not.

I enjoyed the Hobbit though (all the more I hate the movies)

As for playing old female characters: I really don't like the attitude of the OP's players. An old lady can be just as badass as an old man. Or as a younger character. If not even more so.
If they don't want their character to be an old lady that's fine but saying something like "nobody wants one in their party" rubs me all the wrong ways.

The Exchange

Hama wrote:
It mostly played with my nerves and my murder instincts...

Hated it that much huh

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