Naturally Large creature, casting Alter Self


Rules Questions


Alter self states;

"Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.

Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength."

If a creature is naturally large, and shrinks to medium via alter self, does it take the standard ability score adjustments (-2 STR, +2 DEX) for the change, and then apply the benefit of this spell (+2 STR), thus netting a +2 DEX and no other change?

Likewise, if it shrinks from Large to Small, would it first adjust for both size increments (-4 STR, +4 DEX) and then apply the benefits of this spell (+2 DEX) for a net -4 STR and +6 DEX?

Or does it merely gain specifically the ability score adjustments from this spell, and no other change?

What of the typical/standard adjustments to attack rolls and armor class, based on size? The spell does not mention those changes either, so is it assumed to be done, in addition to the ability score adjustments?


I would use the spell rules word by word regardless of the caster size.

Quote:

Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.

Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.


Polymorph

Quote:

If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.

Creature's Original Size Str Dex Con Adjusted Size
Large –4(Str) +2(Dex) –2(Con) Medium

I'm sure that will be poorly formatted.

Regardless, unless you're only looking to boost Dex a little bit more, Alter Self is (typically) a terrible choice for big creatures.

So the answer is, yes there is an adjustment, but it's separate from the spell effect which does exactly what it says, +2 Str OR +2 Dex (and any other effects available through the polymorph).

*Upon review before posting, I see this might be confusing.
The polymorph size adjustment only adjusts "base size", final size is still determined by the spell.
This adjustment is used because all polymorph spells are written with standard size PCs in mind.

In your case, a Large creature casting Alter Self, adjusts his stats to "medium", then applies the spell:
Medium: -2 Str(-4(polymorph) +2(spell)) +2 Dex -2 Con, use 'Medium size' modifiers to Attack/AC/CMB/CMD
Small: -4 Str +4 Dex(+2(polymorph) +2(spell)) -2 Con, use 'Small size' modifiers to Attack/AC/CMB/CMD/Stealth/Fly (etc)


Good to know. But that brings up a new question. The concept in question would be using alter self as a spell like ability. Does that conflict with the polymorph wording, which states "If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature ..." as an SLA is not a spell being cast upon the creature?


karossii wrote:
Good to know. But that brings up a new question. The concept in question would be using alter self as a spell like ability. Does that conflict with the polymorph wording, which states "If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature ..." as an SLA is not a spell being cast upon the creature?

No that doesn't conflict with the polymorph rules.

Any spell like or supernatural ability that function like a specific spell, follow the rules for that spell (unless otherwise noted).


So even as a Supernatural Ability, a large creature able to alter self or otherwise polymorph, would be required to adjust stats to medium prior to changing shape?

What of the Su Change Shape, Greater in the ARG's Race Builder, which states; "Members of this race gain the following supernatural ability: a member of this race can assume the appearance of a Small or Medium humanoid as the alter self spell, save that it does not adjust its ability scores."

Now, does this intend to mean only the ability score changes of the alter self spell, or does it include all ability score changes?

Also, the Universal Monster Rules has similar verbiage about not altering ability scores - but it also indicates that the change shape ability is limited to one size category from one's natural form; but the race builder's ability (above) does not include this restriction. How do these interact?

**As a note, this was not the original question; I was looking at building a large race with Alter Self usable as a Sp, not this Su; but I happened to think of this as we discussed the rules.


karossii wrote:

So even as a Supernatural Ability, a large creature able to alter self or otherwise polymorph, would be required to adjust stats to medium prior to changing shape?

What of the Su Change Shape, Greater in the ARG's Race Builder, which states; "Members of this race gain the following supernatural ability: a member of this race can assume the appearance of a Small or Medium humanoid as the alter self spell, save that it does not adjust its ability scores."

Now, does this intend to mean only the ability score changes of the alter self spell, or does it include all ability score changes?

Also, the Universal Monster Rules has similar verbiage about not altering ability scores - but it also indicates that the change shape ability is limited to one size category from one's natural form; but the race builder's ability (above) does not include this restriction. How do these interact?

**As a note, this was not the original question; I was looking at building a large race with Alter Self usable as a Sp, not this Su; but I happened to think of this as we discussed the rules.

1) Someone using alter self, uses alter self (unless otherwise noted).

2) For Change Shape, I understand "... Does not adjust its ability scores.." as covering all adjustments to ability scores you would otherwise make. It seem the most straight up interpretation of the text.

3) Despite the specifics of Change Shape (which notes differences from the spell), other ways of gaining alter self would follow the normal rules.
This goes for a spell-like ability (a lot cheaper than greater change shape), and it goes for supernatural abilities (such as the Growth domains enlarge ability).

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