Clarification on bomb crits with conductive weapons.


Rules Questions


Assuming I am using a conductive weapon to and decide to use two bombs on it, would the bombs also crit if the weapon crits?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
PRE wrote:
In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster's component pouch.

I am unsure if you can use a bomb with a conductive weapon. The text cited above implies that you are throwing the vial.


Based on pure RAW I think you can use Bombs with a Conductive weapon, but as a GM I wouldn't allow it and I don't think it's intended. The examples provided in the enchantment description are all "energy" like attacks that you channel through your weapon. But a bomb is vial that hits someone, breaks, reacts, and explodes. Thematically it doesn't make sense to allow it to work.

However, if it did work it would firstly require a ranged weapon with the conductive quality. And nothing of the text implies that it gains the crit range or multiplier of the weapon, so no. I believe a normal thrown spash weapon, including alchemists bombs, would only crit on a natural 20. So, if you roll a natural 20 the bomb would also be a critical threat. You would then roll one confirmation roll to see if both weapon and bomb were a critical. However, I still stand by the idea that Bomb isn't actually a valid thing to combine with conductive.

Quote:
Conductive: A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric's domain granted power, sorcerer's bloodline power, oracle's mystery revelation, or wizard's arcane school power). When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, who takes the effects of the weapon attack and the special ability. (If the wielder has unlimited uses of a special ability, he may channel through the weapon every round.) For example, a paladin who strikes an undead opponent with her conductive greatsword can expend two uses of lay on hands ability (a supernatural melee touch attack) to deal greatsword damage and damage from one use of her lay on hands. This weapon property can only be used once per round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged).


To be fair, it is magical. Also there is an alchemist discovery that does something very similar, explosive missile. I think this is a mite better in effect, than the discovery, but more than balanced by using twice as many of your daily bombs.


Omnitricks wrote:
Assuming I am using a conductive weapon to and decide to use two bombs on it, would the bombs also crit if the weapon crits?

No. The bombs are additional damage, like the fire damage from a flaming weapon.


Claxon wrote:

However, I still stand by the idea that Bomb isn't actually a valid thing to combine with conductive.

Quote:
Conductive: A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric's domain granted power, sorcerer's bloodline power, oracle's mystery revelation, or wizard's arcane school power). When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, who takes the effects of the weapon attack and the special ability. (If the wielder has unlimited uses of a special ability, he may channel through the weapon every round.) For example, a paladin who strikes an undead opponent with her conductive greatsword can expend two uses of lay on hands ability (a supernatural melee touch attack) to deal greatsword damage and damage from one use of her lay on hands. This weapon property can only be used once per round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged).

Bombs (Su):

In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies. An alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored. In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.

I disagree, and have bolded the relevant parts. RAW it is valid, but requires a ranged weapon with the conductive property. I don't think it's generally a good use of resources, but it could be useful in certain situations.

Dark Archive

Some Random Dood wrote:
I don't think it's generally a good use of resources, but it could be useful in certain situations.

The best use I have seen for conductive is an elf Alchemist. When needed, you can spend 2 bombs to hit something with a bomb from a much greater distance using a conductive longbow (100' range increments with a max of 10 increments instead of a normal bomb's 20' increments with a max of 5).

It is also nice that you do not have to use the bombs until the ranged weapon hits. At that point you have the choice to use the 2 bombs to activate or not. This can save bombs over the explosive missile discovery.


Just to point out (since I've been killed by this mistake) - even if the bombs could crit, it would only do 1d6+Int more damage. This is per the description of Bombs (all damage past this is "bonus damage") but is often overlooked.

The Exchange

Majuba i'm going to say no to that one.

The bomb damage increases with level. It isn't for example, 1d6 + 3d6. No at level at it's just 4d6. So it would be 4d6 + int.

Also rich mans explosive missile? So happy!

Sczarni

Rushley son of Halum wrote:

Majuba i'm going to say no to that one.

The bomb damage increases with level. It isn't for example, 1d6 + 3d6. No at level at it's just 4d6. So it would be 4d6 + int.

Majuba is correct.

PRD wrote:
On a direct hit, an alchemist’s bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike).

A bomb crit is 2d6+(Intx2)+(extra bomb dice)

Pupsocket wrote:
No. The bombs are additional damage, like the fire damage from a flaming weapon.

Also, why wouldn't a conductive bomb or explosive missile bomb crit if the attack crit? It is just like a shocking grasp crit from a magus. The rider ability crits if the weapon attack crits.


Kaito Darkborn wrote:


Also, why wouldn't a conductive bomb or explosive missile bomb crit if the attack crit? It is just like a shocking grasp crit from a magus. The rider ability crits if the weapon attack crits.

Why?

First of all, the conductive property activates after the hit. From a sequence-of-events standpoint, the conducted ability hits without referencing any die rolls. From a game-balance standpoint, spending alimited resource *after* you know that it's a critical hit seems iffy to me, if it's not the explicitly stated intent.

Second, the ability to have a crit from the carrier attack apply to the rider is an *exception* to the normal rules granted by the Spellstrike ability.

First again, part the second: The attack is not charged with a bomb at the time the critical hit happens. Therefore, the bomb can not possibly crit.

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