I have a PC bard sandman archetype that has glibness cast on him. I also have a NPC that can read thoughts via Seek Thoughts, does the NPC have to make a caster level check against the bards glibness to read their thoughts since they might be looking for the truth or answers, or, because seek throughts does not state it it forcing him to tell the truth nor directly decerning his lies, is there no caster level check?
Glibness
Your speech becomes fluent and more believable, causing those who hear you to believe every word you say. You gain a +20 bonus on Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words. This bonus doesn't apply to other uses of the Bluff skill, such as feinting in combat, creating a diversion to hide, or communicating a hidden message via innuendo.
If a magical effect is used against you that would detect your lies or force you to speak the truth, the user of the effect must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 15 + your caster level to succeed. Failure means the effect does not detect your lies or force you to speak only the truth.
Seek Thoughts
Similar to detect thoughts, seek thoughts allows you to sift through the surface thoughts of those around you. You may scan for either the answer to a simple question (such as “Where is the hidden lair of the wererats?”) or for information on a general topic (such as the beliefs of an evil cult). You detect the number of creatures who are thinking about this question or topic within range, as well as their location if they are visible to you. Seek thoughts does not let you read actual surface thoughts, only if a given creature is thinking about the topic you are concentrating on. A successful Will save prevents you from sensing a creature's thoughts for the duration of the spell.
You can maintain concentration on seek thoughts while you engage in normal conversation, allowing you to ask leading questions about topics of interest. A creature conversing with you while you concentrate can notice that you are distracted with a successful DC 25 Sense Motive check.
I'm not sure. I would probably not have the caster level check come into play because he isn't directly discerning the lies, but thats just my opinion.
Also, I would like to add in that Bluff doesn't mean that an NPC believes what you are telling them. Only that they believe that you believe what you are saying.
So, you can bluff someone and tell them the sky is red. And they will believe you that you believe the sky is red. But they can look up and clearly see that it isn't.
Also, I would like to add in that Bluff doesn't mean that an NPC believes what you are telling them. Only that they believe that you believe what you are saying.
Oh really?
If you use Bluff to fool someone, with a successful check you convince your opponent that what you are saying is true.
I know that there has got to be actual numbers out there for this, but last night in the game the bard asked how he could convince another to do or believe something completely contrary to their nature. The example they used was angels vs. demons. They got themselves into a situation where they were dealing diplomatically with the daughter of a demon who seemed like she might be a demon herself. She was not threatening the PCs and did not detect as evil. She was trying to get away from angels with a paladin like nature to them that were after her. The PCs believe that just as angels can fall, demons and devils might be able to rise... and the Bard wanted to convince the angels to spare her. They are very militant angels interested in cleansing every plane from the infection of the abyss which includes all demons and their bloodlines, at least according to what the PCs have heard. The player wanted to know the exact mechanics behind the rolls and saves that would have to be made for both parties to get everyone to get along, and to know exactly what everyone's true intensions are. Any opinions? Would the call be on story line progression, or is there math for the penalties and bonuses to this?
Also, I would like to add in that Bluff doesn't mean that an NPC believes what you are telling them. Only that they believe that you believe what you are saying.Oh really?
If you use Bluff to fool someone, with a successful check you convince your opponent that what you are saying is true.
I know what the rules say, the rules often don't make sense.
Also you forgot this rule
Note that some lies are so improbable that it is impossible to convince anyone that they are true (subject to GM discretion).
So yeah, maybe you will allow Bards to convince people the sky is red, I on the other hand will have my NPCs look into the sky and then ask if you need medical assitance and where your parent/guardian is.
Note glibness let's you tell lies that normally you couldn't
