Deadly Finesse
peequisites: dex 13, weapon finesse
When you are wielding a weapon that benefits from weapon finesse in one hand and nothing in the other you can choose to deal your dexterity modifier as a bonus to damage rather than your strength bonus, strength penalties still apply.
If you are wielding multiple weapons instead you can deal half your dexterity modifier as bonus to damage.
Sword Dancer
Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse, dex 13, perform dance 2
You can use weapon finesse with one-handed weapons from the light blades, heavy blades, monk and spears weapon groups as well as light weapons. Also you can use perform dance instead of the bluff skill to feint and you get a +4 bonus on that skill to feint if you moved that round.
* Are these acceptable feats ?
I already use something similar to deadly finesse in my own games, without the applied strength penalty. Nobody has used it yet, though I have heard of MANY poeple who use it without any effects on game balance.
Sword dancer is interesting. Not sure what to think of it.
Speaking on Deadly Finesse only....
No... I don't belive so, but that is just my opinion.
There is already enough benefit from a high dex. Adding in your dex to damage fundamentally changes the core mechanics of the system.
No, no a thousand times no.
That being said, it's your game. Do wahtever you want =)
I already use something similar to deadly finesse in my own games, without the applied strength penalty. Nobody has used it yet, though I have heard of MANY poeple who use it without any effects on game balance.
Sword dancer is interesting. Not sure what to think of it.
Thanks for the feedback. I give weapon finesse for free to any creature really so it will be more accessible in my campaign I think, I don't think it will affect balance since dervish dancer is already a feat.
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Speaking on Deadly Finesse only....
No... I don't belive so, but that is just my opinion.
There is already enough benefit from a high dex. Adding in your dex to damage fundamentally changes the core mechanics of the system.
No, no a thousand times no.
That being said, it's your game. Do wahtever you want =)
There is already enough benefit to two handed weapons, let's nix power attack. Archers can full attack from a mount and at range for loads of damage, better get rid of many shot and deadly aim.
This is a feat, not a rebalancing of the system. It is a feat with a comparable benefit to other existing feats, and not as good as some.
In short, it is fine.
Edit: Not to mention dervish dancer is a thing. And it annoys me to.no end that its weapon specific.
so, if you give weapon finesse out for free, do non-finesse users get to swipe it out for something?
Or do the finesse users give up, oh, 1.5 str for 2h and Power Attack in exchange?
==Aelryinth
Speaking on Deadly Finesse only....
No... I don't belive so, but that is just my opinion.
There is already enough benefit from a high dex. Adding in your dex to damage fundamentally changes the core mechanics of the system.
No, no a thousand times no.
That being said, it's your game. Do wahtever you want =)
Well it does keep strength penalties in, which disallows dumping stats and makes the character doubly vulnerable to ability penalties, damage or drain.
The feat is already covered in part by dervish dance but I thought it should also be available to light weapons.
Why is it a problem that dexterity is a bit better than strength ?
It is the same for all characters and the strongest martial characters in the game aren't typically dexterity based. (paladin, barbarian)
A monk, rogue or possibly a few fighters are most likely to benefit.
I use the following for my games:
Improved Weapon Finesse
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13+, Weapon Finesse, Acrobatics 2 ranks.
Benefit: When you attack with a weapon that benefits from the Weapon Finesse feat, you may add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to damage rolls. You do not gain the benefits of this feat if you are wearing a shield or using two-weapon fighting (including similar abilities such as flurry of blows). If you are wielding a two handed weapon with this feat, you do not add one-and-a-half times your Dexterity modifier to damage and you do not gain an extra 50% damage from the Power Attack feat.
-----
I added the Acrobatics 2 ranks requirement because otherwise the feat is typically clearly better than Dervish Dance. This way it's an alternative to DD; DD has the advantage of letting you use scimitars and being thematic for Sarenrae followers, while this feat prevents scimitars from being the obvious best weapon for high Dex builds.
so, if you give weapon finesse out for free, do non-finesse users get to swipe it out for something?
Or do the finesse users give up, oh, 1.5 str for 2h and Power Attack in exchange?
==Aelryinth
No, they don't get to exchange it. I just want dexterity based characters to function ok-ish from level 1. they are by no means the most impressive combatants in my camapign, barbarians and paladins and other Heroes of Anti-dexterity still claim that position.
Though the feats above will replace dervish dancer (I think), so that becomes a little more feat intensive again evening it out but giving somewhat broader benefits.
Yeah, the whole "must be used one-handed" is also a clause I include, to be sure nobody gets the idea that you can "two-hand" a finesse weapon for more damage.
Also, another thing to consider: allow "piranha strike" for all finesse weapons. I personally dont allow power attack while finessing a weapon, so this does allow a little more.
Deadly Finesse
peequisites: dex 13, weapon finesse
When you are wielding a weapon that benefits from weapon finesse in one hand and nothing in the other you can choose to deal your dexterity modifier as a bonus to damage rather than your strength bonus, strength penalties still apply.
If you are wielding multiple weapons instead you can deal half your dexterity modifier as bonus to damage.
Goodness. The concept of adding your dexterity modifier to damage rolls goes back a bit, but the qualifiers you add to that are almost identical to a class feature in a base class I wrote. I feel that, with qualifiers, there is nothing wrong with dex to damage, as long as it does not become an option equal in potency to strength.
I advocate Finesse as a weapon quality, rather than a feat, and some way to add Dex to damage. So I dig the angle of these feats.
One thing that could help the Str dump problem is adding a Prerequisite of Str 13 to any feat that allows one to finesse a normally non-finesse weapon. Along with disallowing +50% damage when two-handing (Str or Power Attack), I think that's enough to rein in the Dex psycho's.
Also, you could add a feat atop any Dex to damage finesse feat to gain the benefit with non-finesse weapons. So, it could go:
Weapon Finesse (feat or weapon quality)
Deadly Finesse
Sword Dancer (or whatever, a feat that lets you Finesse a Greataxe)
>Insert Clever Feat Name< (a feat that lets you add Dex to damage for a Greataxe, or whatever)
...or some such.
I advocate Finesse as a weapon quality, rather than a feat, and some way to add Dex to damage. So I dig the angle of these feats.
One thing that could help the Str dump problem is adding a Prerequisite of Str 13 to any feat that allows one to finesse a normally non-finesse weapon. Along with disallowing +50% damage when two-handing (Str or Power Attack), I think that's enough to rein in the Dex psycho's.
Also, you could add a feat atop any Dex to damage finesse feat to gain the benefit with non-finesse weapons. So, it could go:
Weapon Finesse (feat or weapon quality)
Deadly Finesse
Sword Dancer (or whatever, a feat that lets you Finesse a Greataxe)
>Insert Clever Feat Name< (a feat that lets you add Dex to damage for a Greataxe, or whatever)
...or some such.
Thank you for your feedback.
I give weapon finesse for free, of course the weapon still has to qualify for it but it also works for natural weapons in this case, but it is a bit of a side matter.
hmm.. I could add strength 13 to Sword Dancer I guess, it wouldn't be inappropriate. Wielding a longsword with finesse is fine, though they still need to have str 13 to use power attack so most would have strength 13 anyway otherwise str 13 is hardly worthwhile since they wouldnt be able to get piranha strike for a longsword.
I am not so much opposed to allowing the damage bonus for power attack stand, but dealing +50% damage from your dexterity bonus would be strange for two-handing a finesse weapon.
slightly modified then:
Deadly Finesse
peequisites: dex 13, weapon finesse
When you are wielding a weapon that benefits from weapon finesse in one hand and nothing in the other, or a single weapon in both hands, you can choose to deal your dexterity modifier as a bonus to damage rather than your strength bonus, strength penalties still apply.
If you are wielding multiple weapons instead you can deal half your dexterity modifier as bonus to damage.
You do not add +50% to your dex bonus for wielding a weapon two-handed, though you could use your strength bonus on damage instead if desired.
EDIT: Any thought on the Sword Dancer feat ? I am thinking the bonus should be scaled down a bit somehow.
1) Pick one weapon to finesse *
2) Use perform to feint
3) a +2 bonus to feint if you move at least a 5' step before you do **
* Fighters in my campaign get to use any feat they pick with a weapon group instead of a single weapon, but I felt like it was too generous, especially towards other classes.
** The feint bonus seemed a bit high, +2 bonus should be enough for a side benefit that will be in play most of the time.
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The belief that by allowing Dex to damage your game will somehow become broken is wrong. It's unfortunate that many of the game's core developers and the community believe this misconception. So long as you cannot multiply dex while wielding a weapon in two hands, a STR damage dealer will come out on top.
In my home games, certain weapons have inherent finesse such as shortswords, daggers, ect. and players automatically may choose Dex for attack. The feat weapon finesse lets them apply dex to damage with any finesse weapon. I've had zero balance issues.
The belief that by allowing Dex to damage your game will somehow become broken is wrong. It's unfortunate that many of the game's core developers and the community believe this misconception. So long as you cannot multiply dex while wielding a weapon in two hands, a STR damage dealer will come out on top.
In my home games, certain weapons have inherent finesse such as shortswords, daggers, ect. and players automatically may choose Dex for attack. The feat weapon finesse lets them apply dex to damage with any finesse weapon. I've had zero balance issues.
While I agree with that you should notice that dexterity is not just about damage, it is a very solid attribute in it's own right.
I think this is balanced by the fact that:
The choices of weapon, weapon style and damage output is not as good as a strength build.
The investment of feats, you do not invest these feats to be better at dealing damage, in effect you invest the feats to have the usual benefits of dexterity (initiative, reflex saves, skills, armor class potential).
The feats you invest limit your choice in other areas.
Also, it is not really that important to have the attributes be equal, strength will remian important for a few classes and builds but more classes will now go for a dex build, this makes the strength builds a bit more special too. I think it will reward rogues, monks and fighters more than most others for various reasons and they can use a small boost.
the problem isn't necessarily that' it's going to outdamage a Strength build. It's all the other stuff.
Strength has very little going for it other then TH and DMG. max load and str checks typically have very little effect on the game. It's almost always better to hack through something then try to snap it.
Str affects few skills, too.
Dex, however: Gives a bonus on a saving throw.
Modifies a lot of skills.
Grants you a higher touch AC and AC overall.
Grants a high Init, making it harder to catch you without your Dex bonus (and uncanny dodge basically makes it impossible).
Dex already gets you tons of stuff. letting it give you the combat ability of Str is just massive overkill. It's less a case of abuse then Stat balance. Since Str is one of the 'weakest' stats for what it can do aside from TH/DMG, giving that to another stat really, really downgrades the usefulness of Str.
==Aelryinth
Lone Knave:
Dex intensive builds get high AC's because they can hit the dex limits of armors faster.
Str intensive builds either can't get the Dex to max out the combined effect, or don't get it until so late of levels it's almost worthless.
This is particularly true for fighters, who struggle to get the Dex to take advantage of their Armor Training. An average fighter needs an 18 Dex or higher to max out their Armor bonus for full plate at level 11, and that's without using Mithral armor or celestial plate.
A Dex build can wear the heavier armor, take advantage of class abilities, AND use mithral and get the maximum benefit out of it, all with great ease. In the process, the improve their reflex saves, ability to hit with ranged weapons, several skills, and their init.
The guy pumping Str? He can carry more. And Swim, maybe climb. mmm. It's not a comparison in benefits.
if there were counter feats that allowed a Str fighter to start picking up Dex based benefits...I'd be all for it.
==Aelryinth
This is a hot topic feat I guess.
Important note: DEX is vastly "better" then str because it determines so many aspects of your character.
A feat that let's you bypass STR without limit:
A: gives you an extra stat to dump. That means more points to beef up your dex or shore up weaknesses. Now the only thing you need STR for is climbing and swimming, and we know how important THOSE are right?
B: improves the gains of what is already one of the most used stat. With attack rolls and damage added to the mix DEX becomes a no - brainer best stat.
With feat mechanics added:
A: the effect costs 2 feats. A fair price for two separate stat transitions.
B: mediocre stacking with power attack since you'd rather just dump str now.
C: hard to couple with feat intensive chains unless you're a fighter.
My verdict: mediocre feat wise but absurd in the greater scheme of the system.
My take:
Dervish
Prerequisites: bab 4. Weapon finesse. Dex 15.
You may apply your dexterity bonus instead of your strength to deal damage with the weapon selection outlined in weapon finesse up to a maximum damage bonus of +4. You cannot wield a weapon in 2 hands to gain 1.5 your dex bonus on damage rolls.
(Reasoning: 4 is a normal and standard ability score bonus. Unlocking this much is normal and won't break the system.
There is a greater version that removes the damage limit. The extra feat tax and given difficulty of building ability scores over 18 means that the player may manage to achieve greater then average damage, but he's paying for it with a proper feat tax.
Nota that I am biased by my game where twf is a viable and balanced combat choice for almost anyone.
(How? The iterative twf feats also reduce the attack penalty by 1 each. An 11th level twf ranger with short swords takes now no twf penalty on attacks. I know this imbalances Paladin and cavaliers into the stratosphere but I have an inkling on how to fix that. A-la no smite/challenge damage bonus on off-hand)
Lone Knave:
Dex intensive builds get high AC's because they can hit the dex limits of armors faster.
Str intensive builds either can't get the Dex to max out the combined effect, or don't get it until so late of levels it's almost worthless.
This is particularly true for fighters, who struggle to get the Dex to take advantage of their Armor Training. An average fighter needs an 18 Dex or higher to max out their Armor bonus for full plate at level 11, and that's without using Mithral armor or celestial plate.
A Dex build can wear the heavier armor, take advantage of class abilities, AND use mithral and get the maximum benefit out of it, all with great ease. In the process, the improve their reflex saves, ability to hit with ranged weapons, several skills, and their init.
The guy pumping Str? He can carry more. And Swim, maybe climb. mmm. It's not a comparison in benefits.
if there were counter feats that allowed a Str fighter to start picking up Dex based benefits...I'd be all for it.
==Aelryinth
All valid in theory, and yet in play, Strength continues to dominate because the best defense is offense, negating the benefit of AC and Reflex Saves. Initiative rolls have other modifiers and a d20 that affect it as much as or more than dex. That leaves ranged attacks, which still use strength for damage and can't two hand for power attack and acrobatics which if you don't use it (tumble past that dragon, go on) doesn't matter how good you are.
So yes, Dex adds to more stuff, but none of that stuff is damage so big whoop. If we're going to talk about useless stats, Wis and Cha are right there.
Players at my table all automatically get the benefits of Weapon Finesse. If you take the feat Weapon Finesse you get to add your Dexterity bonus to damage on anything you could normally get bonuses on with Weapon Finesse. So far it's been great and opened up a lot of builds for my players they otherwise wouldn't want to try. Also makes certain classes a lot less MAD (like a melee rogue) and it plays into a faster, more agile fighter. They still can't do damage in melee as easily as a fighter with a greatsword and Power Attack (because my rule is you can't use Power Attack if you're using Weapon Finesse)but they make up for this with better dodge AC, better reflex, and the ability to use lighter armors with less penalties.
Been great for my games.
Thanks for the feedback Orich, I should not have typed 5' step. I meant to say move at least 5 foot, so it can be combined with a 5' step or a normal move action. You would not be able to get the bonus when not able to move though, such as difficult terrain or being immobilized by a net for example and sometimes it is impractical if in a slim alley and you can only move back or your movement take you otherwise in a direction you do not want to go.
The intention is to replace dervish dance by these two feats, adding weapon focus seems a bit much, they ought to get started on their fighting style fairly soon instead of giving them multiple levels of suck beause they can't use dexterity to hit yet and then suddenly get a +5 bonus to hit. This way they can take the feat at 2nd lvl as a fighter, 3rd lvl otherwise.
I do not feel the need to make sword dancer more demanding than weapon finesse, the benefit of a bigger weapon isn't that great, typically you might do +1 damage or so at average. An agile fighter with a second weapon should be fine, artemis or drizzt from FR campaign should be able to be approximated as deadly and skilled warriors not relying on brute strength or a magical weapon too heavily.
I think I'll add that you can only use it with light shields though.
I am not going to focus more on deadly finesse, it is in itself already focused on light weapons, I find it somewhat silly to be deadly with a kukri but useless with dagger.
It is still inferior to a strength build, though it does have synergy with TWF, investing a number of feats to compensate for your physical 'weakness' compared to hulking barbarians and giants is something that should be reflected in the rules properly imo.
EDIT: sorry for the lazy editing, I was in a bit of a rush.
Lone Knave:
Dex intensive builds get high AC's because they can hit the dex limits of armors faster.
Str intensive builds either can't get the Dex to max out the combined effect, or don't get it until so late of levels it's almost worthless.
This is particularly true for fighters, who struggle to get the Dex to take advantage of their Armor Training. An average fighter needs an 18 Dex or higher to max out their Armor bonus for full plate at level 11, and that's without using Mithral armor or celestial plate.
A Dex build can wear the heavier armor, take advantage of class abilities, AND use mithral and get the maximum benefit out of it, all with great ease. In the process, the improve their reflex saves, ability to hit with ranged weapons, several skills, and their init.
The guy pumping Str? He can carry more. And Swim, maybe climb. mmm. It's not a comparison in benefits.
if there were counter feats that allowed a Str fighter to start picking up Dex based benefits...I'd be all for it.
==Aelryinth
All valid in theory, and yet in play, Strength continues to dominate because the best defense is offense, negating the benefit of AC and Reflex Saves. Initiative rolls have other modifiers and a d20 that affect it as much as or more than dex. That leaves ranged attacks, which still use strength for damage and can't two hand for power attack and acrobatics which if you don't use it (tumble past that dragon, go on) doesn't matter how good you are.
So yes, Dex adds to more stuff, but none of that stuff is damage so big whoop. If we're going to talk about useless stats, Wis and Cha are right there.
Anyone who thinks AC doesn't matter isn't watching the dice. I can guarantee you that the GM knows that AC matters.
Ranged attacks matter, and hitting with deadly aim matters more then having a high Str score. A 26 Dex guy with a 14 Str bow hits more and does more damage with Deadly Aim then a 26 Str guy with a 14 Dex at any and every level...because he hits more, and at level 8+ does the same or better damage.
Initiative always matters, and a +6 init bonus before other modifiers is pretty big.
Acrobatics has other uses (such as not slipping on a greased floor, walking tightropes, etc) as well as fighting defensively (Crane Wing builds).
While I agree that Cha can be a dump stat to any non-caster, Wis is the Will save stat, and that is always important. The big fighter with the great offense who just got Dominated is a liability to the party, not a benefit.
==Aelryinth
I like the idea of dex based melee guys. But i find the "use dex instead of str" approach a bit uninspired. I like that a fast guy have to hit more times than the strong guy. But if i GM and a player want to be a dex melee guy. I will look at options with him.
So in my games these feats wouldent be halal.
Lone Knave:
Dex intensive builds get high AC's because they can hit the dex limits of armors faster.
Str intensive builds either can't get the Dex to max out the combined effect, or don't get it until so late of levels it's almost worthless.
This is particularly true for fighters, who struggle to get the Dex to take advantage of their Armor Training. An average fighter needs an 18 Dex or higher to max out their Armor bonus for full plate at level 11, and that's without using Mithral armor or celestial plate.
A Dex build can wear the heavier armor, take advantage of class abilities, AND use mithral and get the maximum benefit out of it, all with great ease. In the process, the improve their reflex saves, ability to hit with ranged weapons, several skills, and their init.
The guy pumping Str? He can carry more. And Swim, maybe climb. mmm. It's not a comparison in benefits.
if there were counter feats that allowed a Str fighter to start picking up Dex based benefits...I'd be all for it.
==Aelryinth
All valid in theory, and yet in play, Strength continues to dominate because the best defense is offense, negating the benefit of AC and Reflex Saves. Initiative rolls have other modifiers and a d20 that affect it as much as or more than dex. That leaves ranged attacks, which still use strength for damage and can't two hand for power attack and acrobatics which if you don't use it (tumble past that dragon, go on) doesn't matter how good you are.
So yes, Dex adds to more stuff, but none of that stuff is damage so big whoop. If we're going to talk about useless stats, Wis and Cha are right there.
Anyone who thinks AC doesn't matter isn't watching the dice. I can guarantee you that the GM knows that AC matters.
Ranged attacks matter, and hitting with deadly aim matters more then having a high Str score. A 26 Dex guy with a 14 Str bow hits more and does more damage with Deadly Aim then a 26 Str guy with a 14 Dex at any and every...
You just more vigorously stated the same claims. And while I agree that these are all important aspects of the game and need to be considered, so does what actually occurs in play. And that is dex fighters sucking and strength characters winning. When talking about those two to the exclusion of wizards that is. Because in the grand scheme of things I'd be fine with this even if it made dex better than strength because trhy both still have a long way to go to match the spellcasters.
I'm currently playing a DEX Magus using dervish dance. I'm at level 11 now and I regret getting 14 STR at the start of the game. I figured that I'd need some strength for some stuff but if we need something done that requires force the barbarian just does it. Also Cat's grace buffs my AC, damage and attack bonus, not to mention several skills I use. At this point I always Cats Grace. Always. I got wands of Cat's Grace so that I can always have it up. In the end I have the highest AC in the party and I don't wear any armor.
It is very true that strength governs very little compared to dexterity and getting dexterity to damage is a huge boon in so many ways. I'm currently experiencing and exploiting that. That said I think that there should be a dex to damage feat. As far as damage output Power Attack is still an obstacle that doesn't stack well with finessing so strength becomes more efficient for damage. (meaning that I am very much against Piranha Strike-like effects or anything that gives finesse power attacks.) Also I think doing dex to damage is worth 2 or 3 feats without being unbalancing. You save two feats to do something else impressive. the only problem with that is finding more feats that are actually impressive.
Thanks for the feedback Orich, I should not have typed 5' step. I meant to say move at least 5 foot, so it can be combined with a 5' step or a normal move action.Thanks for clarifying; I believe you're taking the Feint as a standard action in this case, to subject your opponent to denial of dex in the next round.
Not necessarily, there are multiple ways to feint, move or swift actions even but without any other feats it would be a standard action.
regarding:
The intention is to replace dervish dance by these two feats, adding weapon focus seems a bit much, they ought to get started on their fighting style fairly soon instead of giving them multiple levels of suck beause they can't use dexterity to hit yet and then suddenly get a +5 bonus to hit. This way they can take the feat at 2nd lvl as a fighter, 3rd lvl otherwise.I'm not following something. For each of your proposed feats, Weapon Finesse, providing dexterity to-hit, is required, so I do not understand how you assert they "have multiple levels of suck beause[sic] they can't use dexterity to hit yet" under my suggestion that they need Weapon Focus too before qualifying for Deadly Finesse. I figured anyone making a primarily melee character would take Weapon Focus on the weapon they expect to use most as soon as possible, for the bonus to hit independent of STR or DEX. What's potentially missing until they have an additional prerequisite feat under my proposal compared to yours is the DEX modifier to damage supplied by your Deadly Finesse. Remember, a fighter starts with two feats - could be Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse - three if it's human.
Yes, they do have weapon finesse and could use it with a light weapon, but a character usually wants to wield his signature weapon from the start. If you want to play a dex-based fighter with a longsword for example you would need weapon finesse, weapon focus and Sword Dancer, meaning characters without bonus feats would have to wait till level 5, before they can even hit reliably with a longsword since strength will not have high priority, sure you could use a kukri for the first 5 levels but that would suck a bit.
I am not going to focus more on deadly finesse, it is in itself already focused on light weapons, I find it somewhat silly to be deadly with a kukri but useless with dagger.Yes, I agree that requiring separate Weapon Focus for very similar weapons seems silly, and I could see including treating Kukri as a Dagger for the purpose of Weapon Focus and maybe your Deadly Finesse. However, the clear implication here ("deadly with ... but useless with ...") is that lack of damage bonus due to ability modifier renders one useless. I know the point of these feats is to increase consistent damage capability for DEX-based characters in melee, but without the boost they are "useless" in melee, really? How much damage bonus is enough not to be considered useless?
Useless might be a bit much but if you have a kukri with dexterity 20 with the appropriate feats 1d4+1 or 1d4+5(18-20) makes a huge difference, while 1d4+5 is acceptable for a low level martial character, 1d4+1 is not good enough to contribute much. average 3.5 or 7.5, meaning you are about half as effective in most circumstanes.