The idea is to create the box plastic insert in such a way that also the sleeved cards will fit there in. When you use sleeved cards the insert will be completely fillled.
For no sleeves you have to supply some foam dices as fillers for the new insert.
If you use sleeves you may throw away the foam fillers.
What do you think?
Michael
If there's one thing PACG doesn't need, it's a bigger box (in my opinion).
If there's one thing PACG doesn't need, it's a bigger box (in my opinion).
The box does not to be bigger. BGG user 269hawkmoon published in the BGG files section a pdf file for a foam insert for the actual paper box considering all cards sleeved.
It is possible.Please follow this design for the next pacg. Thanks.
Why don't you post a link to the article you mentioned?
Why don't you post a link to the article you mentioned?
http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/99044/constructing-a-foam-board-insert
Chief Technical Officer
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There are people who don't want to spend a lot of time or money making a game work—they just want to open the box and go. They will never ever even *think* of buying 1200 card sleeves for a game. The tray we have works *great* for these folks—much better than manipulating foam inserts and shuffling things around every time they add a new Adventure Deck. It lets them just get on with the business of enjoying the game. It's an insert that I am personally very happy with.
That said, we do understand that there are people out there who enjoy tailoring things to their own individual needs, and we do have plans that I think will make them happy too. I can't be more specific just yet... but soon.
If you like the insert I made, you must be sleeving your cards, so you may also like this:
http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/99188/card-errata-drop-ins-for-sleeves
Vic: Looking forward to whatever it is you guys have planned.
As a sleever (<- is that a word?) I agree I wouldn't expect everyone to have the same level of OCD that I do about my cards.
But I am glad that there are plans that might help me out as well :)
I want to sleeve all my cards but I'm not crafty enough to make a custom box thing so the sleeved cards fit :<
Jjiinx - Neither am I - I bought a corrugated cardboard storage box from a local gaming store for around 5-10 bucks and use that instead of the original box.
http://www.amazon.com/BCW-Monster-Storage-3200-Count/dp/B000K41E6K/ref=pd_s im_sg_9
That's the one I got - you could get a smaller size as it's actually way too big for just the Pathfinder cards (even with everything through AP6 - I'm pretty sure it'll only take up half of the box), so I'm using it for my Sentinels cards as well. Works pretty well although it doesn't divide up the card types as well as the original box - if you can come up with some foam blocks or something for dividers that works pretty well.
I made dividers for each section of the boons and banes. So for me they are in the same slot, just behind the divider.
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I feel that the layout works fine the way it is. I feel it is unnecessary to spend the additional time and money needed to go to this trouble. And I certainly don't feel it is foolish not do sleeve the game, even if you can cut out over 300 by having to re-sleeve a lot each game (by the way there is an issue with your math, there are only 7 henchmen per scenario not 8). I think it is admirable that Vic and the crew are trying to please as many people as possible but realize that by requesting this change would make some other people unhappy, myself included. I think foam inserts would not look as clean, foam tends to become static filled, and as the cards are moved in and out it will become damaged as foam is not the most durable of materials.
Sorry for the little rant.
And to Slandor, I simply put the cards that are out of the game in one of the empty adventure decks. But then again I don't sleeve my cards so they can also fit in the box.
I feel that the layout works fine the way it is. I feel it is unnecessary to spend the additional time and money needed to go to this trouble. And I certainly don't feel it is foolish not do sleeve the game, even if you can cut out over 300 by having to re-sleeve a lot each game (by the way there is an issue with your math, there are only 7 henchmen per scenario not 8). I think it is admirable that Vic and the crew are trying to please as many people as possible but realize that by requesting this change would make some other people unhappy, myself included. I think foam inserts would not look as clean, foam tends to become static filled, and as the cards are moved in and out it will become damaged as foam is not the most durable of materials.
Sorry for the little rant.
And to Slandor, I simply put the cards that are out of the game in one of the empty adventure decks. But then again I don't sleeve my cards so they can also fit in the box.
As someone who built a foam board insert, I have to agree. Don't get me wrong, I love my insert, and I'm glad I sleeved my cards. But both such acts are the behavior of a certain kind of person, and this game has much broader appeal than to simply that kind of person. The insert that came in RotR was fantastic. I essentially copied most of it's layout when I designed the one I made.
I'm excited to see this thing Vic has hinted at. But even if it isn't the solution "sleevers" hope for, there are lots of other solutions.
If are you invested in the game long term, this might be a very good investment: http://go7gaming.com/path-001-insert-for-pathfinder-acg/. Its flexible enough to be used for any adventure path, even if the types or quantities of cards get tweaked. Yeah its expensive, but if you plan to spend the money buying each set of this game, eventually this becomes a fraction of the cots of the game. And you can just swap out all the cards when you start playing the next adventure path.
But like I said, I am really excited to see exactly what those plans are that Vic hinted at.
I'm excited to see this thing Vic has hinted at. But even if it isn't the solution "sleevers" hope for, there are lots of other solutions.
Hawk, this is exactly why I find it admirable how Paizo is approaching this. While I don't know anything about what Vic is hinting at, the fact that they are trying to come up with a solution means that they want to do their best. If they find a solution that works for all, I will tip my hat to them.
I'm excited to see this thing Vic has hinted at. But even if it isn't the solution "sleevers" hope for, there are lots of other solutions.Hawk, this is exactly why I find it admirable how Paizo is approaching this. While I don't know anything about what Vic is hinting at, the fact that they are trying to come up with a solution means that they want to do their best. If they find a solution that works for all, I will tip my hat to them.
I agree. And I want them to keep hitting a broader audience with this game than simply people like me. The more successful it is, the more likely it is to continue, and the more stuff that will get made for it. I love this game more than I love how I store it and play it.
So Paizo, do your best (I'm sure you are), but focus on making lots of people happy with this game and how its cards are stored, not just me. I'll be fine and I'm sure to continue buying.
Count me as another "non-sleever". I personally have no interest in sleeving this game, although I can understand why others would want to.
But for me, the insert already works perfectly as is. Switching it to foam would be a downgrade from my perspective, for reasons already stated (in particular, it's much less durable than plastic). It'd be great if Paizo manages to come up with a solution that works for both types of people. In the meantime, I'm happy that what they have works for me personally :)
Count me as another "non-sleever". I personally have no interest in sleeving this game, although I can understand why others would want to.
But for me, the insert already works perfectly as is. Switching it to foam would be a downgrade from my perspective, for reasons already stated (in particular, it's much less durable than plastic). It'd be great if Paizo manages to come up with a solution that works for both types of people. In the meantime, I'm happy that what they have works for me personally :)
No... My idea was to have a big plastic insert divided as 269hawkmoon did.
So you may store all the cards sleeved. For non-sleevers small foam cubes are available in the standard box to fill out the space not needed.So you have the BEST insert for sleevers and non-sleevers. This was my original idea.
I use thin sleeves and put unneeded cards in the cardboard boxes. This means that I can fit everything I need to start AP 3 in the box with several empty slots. Removing cards should make enough space for AP 4.
My box also contains five sets of dice and miniatures (including animals for Lini).
So you have the BEST insert for sleevers and non-sleevers. This was my original idea.
Sorry, I have to disagree that this is the best for both. Foam is a very bad material for this type of situation. Styrofoam is staticy and messy, especially as it falls apart. The other softer foams are softer and would tend to snag. Plus to accomadate more full-sized sleeves the spaces would have to be wider and then the unsleeved cards would bang around more leading to more damage and faster wear.
I do believe that there may be a solution, and I hope Vic is right that they have something that works. I just don't think the foam insert solution would work the best and I would be disappointed if that was used.
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So you have the BEST insert for sleevers and non-sleevers. This was my original idea.Sorry, I have to disagree that this is the best for both. Foam is a very bad material for this type of situation. Styrofoam is staticy and messy, especially as it falls apart. The other softer foams are softer and would tend to snag. Plus to accomadate more full-sized sleeves the spaces would have to be wider and then the unsleeved cards would bang around more leading to more damage and faster wear.
I do believe that there may be a solution, and I hope Vic is right that they have something that works. I just don't think the foam insert solution would work the best and I would be disappointed if that was used.
I think you guys might be misunderstanding each other (or maybe I'm misunderstanding that). I think Myfly is saying that maybe Paizo could make out of plastic what I made out of foam board. Then he is saying you could put foam place holders in the spaces to fill up what wouldn't be filled by unsleeved cards. He'd probably even say you could use another material or coat one end in something so that cards wouldn't catch on it, but now I'm speaking for him, which I really shouldn't do.
I'm not saying any of either of your points aren't valid, just trying to make sure you guys don't get stuck in a repetitive discussion because of a minor misunderstanding.
For now though, lets wait and see what this thing is that Vic hinted at. (And also hope that maybe the cards being produced in the US will mean they will be less likely to get nicked and worn when used.)
I personally would not enjoy having to fiddle with foam cubes.
I'd also be concerned that making a plastic insert large enough to accommodate 1200 sleeved cards that could still fit inside the game's original box size would necessarily mean the internal walls would have to be thinner. I'm no packaging engineer, but I feel like the durability of the insert is only going to drop with a change like that (unless they went to a more expensive, higher-grade plastic).
Count me as another "non-sleever". I personally have no interest in sleeving this game, although I can understand why others would want to.
But for me, the insert already works perfectly as is. Switching it to foam would be a downgrade from my perspective, for reasons already stated (in particular, it's much less durable than plastic). It'd be great if Paizo manages to come up with a solution that works for both types of people. In the meantime, I'm happy that what they have works for me personally :)
My main reason for wanting to sleeve the entire game is because I bought a character pack that happened to be a 2nd printing, so the character expansion cards are smaller than the rest, this makes shuffling them the typical way pretty annoying, and since the game requires quite a bit of shuffling it becomes more than a minor annoyance
I think you guys might be misunderstanding each other (or maybe I'm misunderstanding that). I think Myfly is saying that maybe Paizo could make out of plastic what I made out of foam board. Then he is saying you could put foam place holders in the spaces to fill up what wouldn't be filled by unsleeved cards. He'd probably even say you could use another material or coat one end in something so that cards wouldn't catch on it, but now I'm speaking for him, which I really shouldn't do.
Thanks Hawk, but I don't think I am misunderstanding. Making the whole tray out of plastic and then having "foam" blocks to be inserted means that for those that do not want to sleeve the game have something else to deal with. Unless there is some locking mechanism those blocks will shift. Cards may get damaged by that. Yes it may be better if they were made of a different material but then they will still move. What if the blocks are lost or destroyed, then the cards won't stand up correctly because the spaces will be so big. I see this solution as making things unnecessarily difficult for those that do not want to sleeve.
I do think that what you did is incredible, but I find it unnecessary for myself.
I think you guys might be misunderstanding each other (or maybe I'm misunderstanding that). I think Myfly is saying that maybe Paizo could make out of plastic what I made out of foam board. Then he is saying you could put foam place holders in the spaces to fill up what wouldn't be filled by unsleeved cards. He'd probably even say you could use another material or coat one end in something so that cards wouldn't catch on it, but now I'm speaking for him, which I really shouldn't do.
Thanks Hawk, but I don't think I am misunderstanding. Making the whole tray out of plastic and then having "foam" blocks to be inserted means that for those that do not want to sleeve the game have something else to deal with. Unless there is some locking mechanism those blocks will shift. Cards may get damaged by that. Yes it may be better if they were made of a different material but then they will still move. What if the blocks are lost or destroyed, then the cards won't stand up correctly because the spaces will be so big. I see this solution as making things unnecessarily difficult for those that do not want to sleeve.
I do think that what you did is incredible, but I find it unnecessary for myself.
Ah. Ok, then I was misunderstanding both of you. Sorry. Forget I interjected at all. (Thanks for the compliment for my insert though, I appreciate that).
I think you guys might be misunderstanding each other (or maybe I'm misunderstanding that). I think Myfly is saying that maybe Paizo could make out of plastic what I made out of foam board. Then he is saying you could put foam place holders in the spaces to fill up what wouldn't be filled by unsleeved cards. He'd probably even say you could use another material or coat one end in something so that cards wouldn't catch on it, but now I'm speaking for him, which I really shouldn't do.
Thanks Hawk, but I don't think I am misunderstanding. Making the whole tray out of plastic and then having "foam" blocks to be inserted means that for those that do not want to sleeve the game have something else to deal with. Unless there is some locking mechanism those blocks will shift. Cards may get damaged by that. Yes it may be better if they were made of a different material but then they will still move. What if the blocks are lost or destroyed, then the cards won't stand up correctly because the spaces will be so big. I see this solution as making things unnecessarily difficult for those that do not want to sleeve.
I do think that what you did is incredible, but I find it unnecessary for myself.
Hey, Scott,
Hawk just got it right interpreted...Same hardpaper box, new plastic insert like hawk did and foam blocks as fillers...
You need these only in the larger slots...
What should you do if these are lost or destroyed?
Simple answer, then finally you have to sleeve your cards. :-))))))
Paizo could offer their own sleeves or even sell the GenCon promo sleeves ... And offer some discount as it is not cheap to sleeve all 1200 cards...
I think leaving the base box insert designed for non-sleeving is the way to go. Here's why: Different people who "mod" the game by sleeving and other methods will each have their own goals in mind. Not to mention the fact that the sleeve options out there differ in size and thickness. It would be really difficult to make a one-box-fits-all solution out of the gate without making the box a huge hassle for people like me who just want to play as-is.
I'm going to take a guess that Vic's solution might be a new insert available as an add-on that is designed for sleeved decks. This would make sense to me because the base box would allow for the majority of players who play as-is, while the option to purchase (or create their own) custom insert is available for the rest.
My thought on sleeving: I didn't buy this to be a collectible. I bought it to play. If I wanted a a collector's item, I would have bought the game and never even broken the shrink wrap. I also understand that the card differences between printings makes it difficult to shuffle, but I'm making due without all the extra hassle and cost of sleeving.
(I will always remember going to a MtG tournament when it first came out and getting my arse handed to me by some kid with a deck of all rare cards. Each card was in a thick, hard sleeve that was more of a crystal case. It just struck me as completely ridiculous on multiple levels!)
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Chief Technical Officer
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Where are you supposed to put the 'removed from game'-cards with the current layout of the box?
I had no problem fitting everything up to AP3 into the corresponding slots, even sleeved (blessings are a bit tight), but I am stumped on what to do with the removed cards. So far I put them into the unused character slots, but I will run out of space there quite soon.
I put mine back in the empty Adventure Deck boxes (with B and C cards both going into the Add-On Pack box).
I put mine back in the empty Adventure Deck boxes (with B and C cards both going into the Add-On Pack box).Where are you supposed to put the 'removed from game'-cards with the current layout of the box?
I had no problem fitting everything up to AP3 into the corresponding slots, even sleeved (blessings are a bit tight), but I am stumped on what to do with the removed cards. So far I put them into the unused character slots, but I will run out of space there quite soon.
Do you need the b and c henchmen in later adventure decks?
Yes. Some are used for "at this location" powers and "when closing powers". Also, the removal they are talking about is the removal of cards with the basic trait, which only starts in hook mountain massacre. I don't think any of the henchmen have the basic trait.
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As a non-sleever, I would definitely not want to have an unwieldy box to accomodate the sleevers. They already make an extra effort so it's not that much to ask them to take that extra step towards a box acceptable for them.
In an ideal world, I think the best solution would be to offer a different inset separately, but I doubt that'd be financially viable, especially considering the different sleeve formats.
With henchman for past scenarios, you one need a single unsleeved card. I put the next couple scenarios of henchman, villains and locations in with the scenario cards for quick setup. This frees up the huge henchman slot for one of the big decks.
Hey, Scott,
Hawk just got it right interpreted...
Same hardpaper box, new plastic insert like hawk did and foam blocks as fillers...
You need these only in the larger slots...What should you do if these are lost or destroyed?
Simple answer, then finally you have to sleeve your cards. :-))))))
I am sorry Fly but that doesn't make sense to me. Your solution means that I have to invest more into the game to accomadate those people that already wish to invest more. This will mean that the game will be less appealing to those that do not desire to treat this game a collectible item.
I understand that some people feel that the need to protect their investment but to force those that do not agree to do the same, or at least make it a hassle for them to deal with it, seems unfair. If they do come up with an idea that works for both styles, then I would support it 100%. If the solution is to make the game a bigger hassle or a bigger investment, then I would need to reconsider if I could continue to purchase the game. It will already be about $360 per year just for the game as is.
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Again, why in the world can no one make cards out of poker card card-stock?...Other than card sleeve manufacturers paying game companies to print on crap card stock I have no idea why this is the case (again, yours are better than any of the other games I've run across/own).
Economies of scale? There are probably a lot (by several orders of magnitude) more 52-card decks being produced than unique card / board games. Setup / fixed costs (largely in the form of labor) for production are spread out over more units, reducing the total per-unit cost. This is probably part of the reason why Paizo has been able to move production for PACG to the U.S.A., where there are higher labor costs.
I do have a comment about how worn you are saying the cards are becoming.
My wife and I (plus a few friends) have played ours quite a bit. My wife and I have a six character game that has gone through all three available decks so far. Plus we played a 2 character through the base and AP1. In addition we have a few different groups that have played through the first scenarios a few times. With failed scenarios, and restarting a few times as we better understood the game, I'd say we have played 20-30 games with our set.
After all of that I think we have 1 card that I could identify as to which set it came from. That card is from AP1, and we know it because one corner bent slightly (not creased) and if it is near the top of a deck we can tell it's there. The cards are showing a little wear but it's pretty even across them all. Plus we don't tend to examine the back of the cards that closely.
I feel that even without sleeving I will be able to play this game for a few years to come before it because that big of an issue. This of course assumes that nothing unforseen happens. Also, this is one person's opinion, maybe I just don't have the same standards as others do.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor
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I've played I believe 49 games with my set (2 character through AP 3, 6 character through AP 3, 3 character through AP 2, plus a demo). Wear's pretty even on mine as well. Enough cards are not worn that a new volume isn't obvious when it goes in. I'm a little worried about AP 6, but it's a co-op game and we try not to get too meta about it.
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I love the insert the game already comes with. In fact, set up/tear down time was my biggest complaint about the game during the playtest. As a sleever, though (I use penny sleeves to kep costs down) Im finding it difficult to fit everything in their spots now that I have the Add-On and Chapters 1-3 all mixed in with the base set stuff.
I thought I had read something at some point about taking the cards from the earlier packs out as you progressed through the series, but cant find that anywhere now. So I might have to make a custom insert for it anyway. :/
That is on the Adventure Path card. It starts with cards with the Basic trait during Hook Mountain Massacre and then eventually cards with the Elite trait, but you don't do it all at once. Read that card carefully.
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I'd like to see the insert in 2 parts so we can remove a tray with just the in-play cards (banes & boons) and leave the storage portion for adventure pack boxes etc in the box which could be set aside. This would leave more room at crowded tables as it would take up 1/2 the space & be easier to pass around for drawing cards. I've considered trying to cut mine up but don't want to ruin it.
I'd like to see the insert in 2 parts so we can remove a tray with just the in-play cards (banes & boons) and leave the storage portion for adventure pack boxes etc in the box which could be set aside. This would leave more room at crowded tables as it would take up 1/2 the space & be easier to pass around for drawing cards. I've considered trying to cut mine up but don't want to ruin it.
I find this idea interesting. I wouldn't say it needs to be done but I'd support the concept if it doesn't effect the product or cost.
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A little engineering where you make the empty cardboard box storage section (huge waste of space IMHO) a drop in piece, and then supply/sell an identical sized drop in piece with normal dividers would allow everything to fit sleeved for those who desired to make that investment. Cost of that piece of molded plastic would be fractions of a cent... shouldn't change end user price at all.
For the convenience I would pay 5-10 bucks as a separate upgrade, a nice profit margin.
For the people with zero wear sets I wish I was so lucky. Sweaty gamer hands, drunken shuffling, and average card stock have made this very good but very expensive game wear out very fast in our house.
I will personally not be buying the next game unless some provisions are made to help me extend the longevity.