[Advice] Meta-knowledge and a lot of other problems


Rise of the Runelords


Help. Please. I'm begging.

I'm pretty sure my run of RotRL has been the most troubled run ever. I'm currently at the 3.1 version of it, after several players left the table (apparently, playing every other saturday was too much of a commitment to them). But finally, got the party. This weekend was the 3rd session, which ended up when they found Tsuto's letter.

The session was... problematic. Two of my players are Pathfinder DMs. Another player comes from D&D. And the fourth one comes from Vampire (where it seems it's OK if your PC is a sadistic a**hole, and nothing happens when you act as a jerk).

The main issues (and the solutions I've came up so far) are next, but please, give me your opinion. At this point, anything helps.

1) They don't listen. Not to me, not among them. Not as players, nor as characters. They keep interrupting each other. Solution: no one can interrupt. It's a matter of respect, for God's sake. Be civilized, otherwise, you're out of the table for ten minutes.

2) Meta-knowledge. Both the DM-players got knowledge from other sources. I'm dealing with this in two ways: some of it (the info they got wrong), I let them keep, until they find an NPC that laughs at them for having such ridiculous ideas. It has worked, so far. It has even made them more... humble. When they go too far, I tell them to stop using knowledge their characters don't have. It wasn't as succesful as the other solution.

3) Not enough meta-knowledge? The Vampire-player thinks he is the medieval Superman of this story. He wants to go alone to clean up the forests. He has a ranger. He has 10 hp. He is insane. Apparently, this is due to the lack of knowledge as how the system works. Not pretty sure how to handle this. Maybe explaining how this works? Also thought of talking about this from the character's perspective: why the heck would a foreigner that has just arrived to town go into a suicidal mission to clean the forests from goblins, which is also impossible?

4) Ego. They have decided they know more. They are better experts in Thassilonian ruins than Brodert, they think they know better as how to rule the Militia... and the town. Seriously. The words 'they have no idea how to rule this town, we do' were said on the table. I'm thinking about trying to show them the big picture: they are newcomers, and don't know anything about the town, nor the NPCs. How can you judge anything without knowing it? Also, there is no motivation for the characters to do a lot more than to help people when they're being asked, and to try to figure out who was behind the goblin attack. I mean, do you really believe that if there was a dungeon in the lighthouse, which has been in the middle of the town the past 50 years, no one would have realised by now?

5) Alignment. One of the characters stabbed a militia member because they thought he was suspicious. Solution: they lost the discounts, have penalties to Diplomacy checks, and lost any privilege. They can't purchase in some stores. The only reason why the character wasn't send to prison, is because the other players intervened. Should I be harsher with this?

At the end, it was fun, but at some points it gt really annoying. I want to stop this behaviours right know, before it's too late.

Thanks in advanced,
Nyn


Short version? You and the group don't fit. They--from what you wrote--prefer a completely different style of gaming than you (and myself, if that matters) would (I GM this AP, too).

I have 3 other GMs at my table so there's lot of system mastery going on, Bestiary knowledge etc. but consider myself lucky since they do not know the AP.

With the meta-knowledge it's always hard to deal. I solve that by altering the AP (other monsters, names, new encounters).

Solution? Dunno if there's any. I'd talk to them BEFORE the next session. Tell them to quit being jerks. Tell them with exact examples what annoys you about their behavior. If they can stop--fine. If not I think it's best to look for another party.

Also:
the golden rule (also quoted in White Wolf products if that matters to your Vampire player) is to have fun.

Ruyan.


Yeah... Having someone stab a guard should get them thrown in prison for the night, and then carted off to Magnimar for trial. But that is too late, really - you need a frank talk about what you all want the game to be. If you don't want evil jerk characters, state that plainly. If they don't want to be heroes, they should say that as well.

Have you allowed evil alignments? If so, you may want to revisit that idea.


Nope. Not evils alignments, no evil gods. According to him, that was not evil, was neutral, since it didn't kill him. ¬¬

I believe some part of this behaviour is due to the anticipation: the GM-players have been in the party since the beginning (eight months ago), and at the start, the AP can be a little sandbox. So, I still have faith that with a little 'guidance' they will mend themselves.

I'm afraid of two things: to become a railroader DM (assuming that phrase exists), and to give too much meta-kowledge in the clarifications/guidance/intimidation. Although, at this point, I prefer my players to metaplay and have fun, rather than this.

Thank you, Ruyan and Lamplight.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Yeah, not to pile on, but it seems like this is just a bad fit.

Are these people your friends IRL? Are they each other's friends? 'Cause it sounds like a bunch of socially inept jerks dealing with strangers.

Nynphaiel said wrote:
1) They don't listen. Not to me, not among them. Not as players, nor as characters. They keep interrupting each other. Solution: no one can interrupt. It's a matter of respect, for God's sake. Be civilized, otherwise, you're out of the table for ten minutes.

This is just a basic respect issue. The petty side of me would advise never to repeat yourself, and not start talking until they give you their attention. But I don't think that would actually help.

Nynphaiel said wrote:
2) Meta-knowledge. Both the DM-players got knowledge from other sources. I'm dealing with this in two ways: some of it (the info they got wrong), I let them keep, until they find an NPC that laughs at them for having such ridiculous ideas. It has worked, so far. It has even made them more... humble. When they go too far, I tell them to stop using knowledge their characters don't have. It wasn't as succesful as the other solution.

As RuyanVe suggested, change information. Change monsters. Change things so that they can't know what's going on. However, you should also talk to them. Using meta knowledge is pretty much universally frowned upon. Maybe they need to be gently reminded.

Nynphaiel said wrote:
3) Not enough meta-knowledge? The Vampire-player thinks he is the medieval Superman of this story. He wants to go alone to clean up the forests. He has a ranger. He has 10 hp. He is insane. Apparently, this is due to the lack of knowledge as how the system works. Not pretty sure how to handle this. Maybe explaining how this works? Also thought of talking about this from the character's perspective: why the heck would a foreigner that has just arrived to town go into a suicidal mission to clean the forests from goblins, which is also impossible?

I played a lot of White Wolf. This guy sounds less like he learned from WW that being a sadist is OK, and more like he's just a jerk. A way to address his desire to go off by himself to "clean up the forests" is to ask him why he's there. If his character has no motivation to be involved in RotRL, then let him go off and get killed. The only way to get a character without motivation to go along with your quest is to force them, which is no fun. Discuss what the point is, and ask if he is interested in playing a character that is part of the group. *shrug*

Nynphaiel said wrote:
4) Ego. They have decided they know more. They are better experts in Thassilonian ruins than Brodert, they think they know better as how to rule the Militia... and the town. Seriously. The words 'they have no idea how to rule this town, we do' were said on the table. I'm thinking about trying to show them the big picture: they are newcomers, and don't know anything about the town, nor the NPCs. How can you judge anything without knowing it? Also, there is no motivation for the characters to do a lot more than to help people when they're being asked, and to try to figure out who was behind the goblin attack. I mean, do you really believe that if there was a dungeon in the lighthouse, which has been in the middle of the town the past 50 years, no one would have realised by now?

Again, this is just jerky behavior. There's nothing for it.

Nynphaiel said wrote:
5) Alignment. One of the characters stabbed a militia member because they thought he was suspicious. Solution: they lost the discounts, have penalties to Diplomacy checks, and lost any privilege. They can't purchase in some stores. The only reason why the character wasn't send to prison, is because the other players intervened. Should I be harsher with this?

Are they evil? 'Cause that sounds pretty evil to me. I like your way of handling it - it gives the players a warning, of sorts. Since they sound like the kind of players that won't take a hint, next time they do something like this, arrest them. And if they won't accept arrest, there's nothing for it but to make them enemies of the town - which will essentially end the campaign.

I'm really sorry about the problems you're going through. It sounds like the group needs some serious discussion about what game they are playing and what game they want to play, as well as expectations and basic things like etiquette. I wish I had something more wise to suggest. Good luck!

Edit in response to your comment on it not being evil because he didn't kill him.

He assaulted a person. With intent to kill. Without cause. And that person was a member of the town guard. Sounds like you and the player definitely need to have a discussion on expectations of alignment.


Sometimes I change monster names and even pictures and descriptions of them (the internet has fun images of random monsters). Also, if monsters know about the PCs ahead of time (like they have intel), the monsters would prepare accordingly.

Why not let the ranger try to fight a group of goblins on his own? Have him roll the battle vs a group of goblins (and maybe a bugbear). Maybe he encounters two boars instead and gets roughed up? Either way, instead of having him die, have Shalelu save him. I can imagine, arrows flying from the forest somewhere and goblins dropping like flies! Of course the rest of the goblins retreat after seeing the Hunter! Something like that will make the PC appreciate Shalelu more and humble him. It will also be exciting. He might also develop a love interest in Shalelu which will be interesting later on ;)

I know that PCs always think they are on their own in any adventure... they like to always assume the guard is useless. I always try to add in parts where the guards are heroic. For example if you are playing the Anniversary Edition, Hemlock and the PCs go to explore the graveyard and find a group of skeletons! Some GMs forget Hemlock is there and never play him (which of course makes him a lame sissy!!). I for one, depending on the party, would increase the difficulty of the encounter and add Hemlock and make him bad ass in that encounter (of course he won't be the hero, but he'll be able to hold his ground and help the PCs). I try to add other parts where the guards try to save the day and show they are doing their best. During the goblin raids, explaining how other guards are working together to kill the goblin threats around them helps bring that to home.

As for other NPCs in town. Have Brodert Quink identify things in the Catacombs of Wrath that the PCs could not (that would get them humble). In our game, Quink is the go to character for any questions they have on Thassilonian because I set him up as someone they could get answers from (don't roll for him, just let him answer a couple of Thassilonian inquiries to make him seem competent).

Have the PCs get to know the NPCs through random fun quests? Like have they go to a bar and introduce some NPCs. Think how can an NPC help the PC the most.

When the PC stabbed that guard, maybe a Sczarni member noticed and walked up to the PC and offered to assist him (which is why he didn't end up in jail). They can owe the Sczarni now. As part of the "family", maybe they have a reason to want to protect the town.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I was actually going to suggest the goblin battle for the ranger in question, but Alexis beat me to it! I'm not a huge fan of Shalelu's introduction in RotRL, because we have to infer that she's a skilled hunter and goblin-foe. A better introduction shows her kicking goblin ass right out of the box, and that's what this one does.

Here's what I suggest. Have the ranger go up against a goblin or two, just to give him the chance to show that, yes, he can handle a goblin by himself, maybe even two. Then have Bruthazmus humble him. The bugbear had set up this ambush for Shalelu, but the party ranger stumbled upon it first. He takes two more goblins with him, and they blindside the ranger. He will be outmatched by the higher level bugbear, so Shalelu will come by when things look bleak to save the day. Two more arrows streak out of the woods to kill the goblins, and Bruthazmus beats feet to get away - he wasn't interested in a fair fight today, anyway.

Normally, I'd advise against a story like this - nobody likes feeling powerless, and you're basically setting this guy up for failure. However, he needs to understand that this isn't something that he can solve all by himself, and Shalelu will be the first to tell him that. He needs a humbling. All of them do.


Thank you guys, this is all really helpful. The majority of the problems have already been pointed out by the players on our forum, which I appreciate. I'm waiting until all the opinions are out, and then I'm telling what I believe.

I think I'm openly telling everything. I really want to enjoy this, so if I'm polite, there should be no hard feelings. Also, I prefer to let know my players exactly what I expect, and how this world works, than to have this misunderstandings.

* 'When the PC stabbed that guard, maybe a Sczarni member noticed and walked up to the PC and offered to assist him' ---> This is exactly what I'm about to do, lol. They already know the Sczarni, and I was developing a subplot involving them. The next session a Sczarni member is approaching them and congratulating them on their 'good job'. Thank you, Alexis, that's a bunch of really helpful things.

* Misroi: hehe, you really own the evil GM(TM).


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I have a "gaming safe word phrase" for the players. And I've told them that when I say these words, that they might want to reconsider an action.

"Are you SURE you want to do that?"

If they say "yes!" then I let consequences reign supreme.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nynphaiel wrote:
* Misroi: hehe, you really own the evil GM(TM).

That is, quite possibly, the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me on these boards. :)

Honestly, though, it's just a reversal of a Shalelu hook that was discussed on another thread. If you do end up doing something like this, I suspect the player will take away the wrong message. This is going to feel like you're introducing an unkillable DMPC, someone that's better in every way to the PCs, who are supposed to be the heroes of the story. The ranger will probably rankle at being saved, and rather than take the hint that he's not an unstoppable killing machine, he'll be angry that you've forced him into a situation that he can't win.

And Tangent has the right idea - if they want to do off-the-wall stuff, like STAB A GUY IN BROAD DAYLIGHT, then they will have to face the consequences. They've rightfully lost the respect of the townsfolk. You still might be able to salvage things, especially since the Sczarni have taken an interest in them. If I had to do this, I suspect that Jubrayl could get them to do a few jobs around Sandpoint to get his hooks into the party. Local Heroes becomes much less heroic. Some of the more important plot points can be reskinned in order to get the salient points across. "Hemlock took a handful of his closest guards to the boneyard the night of the attack. I want to know why." "The Glassworks closed down last night, and hasn't reopened. I've got an interest in that place, so I'd like to know my interests are safe. Go check it out."


And again, thank you. I'm waiting to see the way things develops,and then I will take a decision. There is a character that is NG and devout of Sarenrae. If he really regrets the fact that he didn't stop the ranger, then I won't take things to the evil side.

Both the DM-players use that phrase to scare players, but we already know that we use the random save rolls for that ;) I'm definitely using the safe word idea.

Oh, the sin points...


I actually had a pretty rough time with my group, but I too stuck with it and it got better.

First, I did not GM (nor was present) from the beginning to before the Catacombs. When I did GM, I had 6-7 players, one of which was the GM before me, and half were battle-oriented meta-gamers. I am a RPing sort of GM.

Thistletop was a breeze for them. I wanted to run Thistletop silly; e.g. overwhelming odds except the enemies are goblins. Goblins are so hilarious. I used the Classic Monsters Revisted Paizo book and read the entry on goblins. I was very disappointed with how Thistletop ended up becoming in my game :\ Also, PCs might try to rest at every opportunity so have good back up plans for this. I just think the "heroes" in my game were extremely disappointing for a 6-7 player table.... took them 5 days to actually beat Thistletop (this isn't including fighting Malfeshnekor).

Now we're down to 3 PCs. They are humbled by this fact now I think :)


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Perhaps a bit late to the dialogue but, and there's a bit of tough love here but it seems to me your players don't respect the world and even to some extent don't respect you. It can be hard to run with experienced GM's as players, sometimes they forget they aren't in charge. In the best sessions, it is invisible who's "in charge" but if anyone at the table is in charge, it needs to be the DM.

The important theme to get back that control or respect is: consequences. Whether they acknowledge it or not, you are in charge because you determine what the consequences of the players' actions are.

Example: he gets a lot a bad press in these parts - Sheriff Useless and all that, but to paraphrase an old movie line - Hemlock's not Useless, he's just drawn that way. Hemlock should scare the crap out of any 1st level character - he's a 4th level Shoanti fighter. You attacked a town guard? Really? Bad move. The next morning the Sheriff and a few of his men confront the perpetrator - if the other players think about interfering, point out that other higher level characters from town are present - there are monks, clerics and wizards in town - they back Hemlock without hesitation. Hemlock attacks the offending ranger with little or no preamble and when he gets the player down to 1-3 hit points, Hemlock switches tactics and you introduce the player to the rules for non-lethal damage. When the player wakes up penniless (any money he had has been confiscated to pay for healing the injured guard) and low on hp in the garrison, Hemlock and his men toss him into passing red cart of garbage with a warning: "If you mess with a guardsman or citizen again, I'll nail your <sensitive body parts> to the sign outside of town as a warning to others."

Important safety tip: this is not America. You do not have any rights. There's no such thing as police brutality or there is but it's encouraged. Sheriff Hemlock is the law. If he and his men killed the whole party (who attacked a guard) the town would buy him a beer.

If your players don't understand that they are "Heroes" because of coincidence you need to explain it to them. They fought off 9 goblins in three separate fights. WhooHoo! Big Deal. Hemlock and his men had to fight off 3 or 4 dozen and Zantus wasn't there to heal the guards in the middle if they needed it. The players' actions were critical to saving lives and maybe the cathedral but they didn't fight off the bulk of the goblins and they didn't "save" Sandpoint. Later in the AP they will tower over the town's residents in power and ability, but not on Day 1.


Latrecis: that's exactly what I told them. To the players, about the respect. And to the characters, about how they are lvl 1, and how most of the NPCs have already multiclassed or have a prestige class. That they're still strangers, and don't mean anything to anyone here. About how they cannot break the social contract -not at least without consecuences.

I am also trying to stimulate roleplaying: they can only speak in-character during sessions, and already sent them a questionnaire about their charater's personalities. I believe that once they had developed their characters sufficiently, it'll be easier for them to make decision on-game.

Alexis: how did your run of Thistletop ended? I believe I'm pretty much in the same situacion as you: I believe roleplay has the spot in the game, while my players are battle-oriented and totally rule-dependant (in a sort of annoying way, kinda hard to explain).

Thank you for your advice!! =)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

One thing I think that works in the DM's favor is that the AP spells out that Nualia is working on some dark ritual at Thistletop, and that she's getting close to enacting it. There's not a timetable given, so that lets the DM decide when she succeeds. It certainly shouldn't be until the party has had a chance to make at least one foray into the dungeon's depths, maybe two. This is one of those situations where you want to be stingy with the PCs on info. If they don't know when she's going to complete the ritual, then they're going to assume that they have to go Right Now. That will make them strongly consider pushing on after a tough battle, whereas if they knew they had a few days to take care of things, they'd probably retreat, rest up and come back fully prepared. I fully credit the challenge Nualia represented in my game to this fact - they had next to no spells, no more healing, and were barely able to squeak out a win. One of them even had been poisoned by the tentamort, so they also had ability damage. If they didn't have the ritual as a Sword of Damacles hanging over them, they probably would have cut their losses and gone back to Sandpoint to heal and resupply. Instead, they pushed onwards.


The most difficult thing I'm facing right now is to find a balance among the railroad-straightforward-battle part of the campaign and the roleplaying-interaction with NPCs part.

I had to rush in the Glassworks part, so they could find themselves with something to do. But I still want to get them involved with the town, so I was planning to introduce random encounters with NPCs, and also side quests (Chopper's Island and Something in the attic) before jumping into Chapter 2. I'm also using the town reunion to congrat/scold the characters at the end of Burnt Offerings, to introduce more NPCs and a red herring involving 'Your lordship'...


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My Thistletop experience was... odd.

None of the PCs could follow that druid goblin easily; use that to your advantage when retreating. He, Gogmurt, got away. His firepelt cougar, did not. The PCs didn't want to kill such a beautiful animal (we had a paladin of Shelyn with us). And the goblin didn't want to leave his animal to die. So, info for the firepelt cougar was traded (all while they are trading, he never left the hiding place, so it was like the forest was talking). The PCs promised not to kill any goblins. The PCs also intimidated him not to attack. Then they rested after clearing out the forest before Thistletop island. I did not expect them to rest then, so I didn't not come up with night attack ideas. Gogmut didn't attack since he was quite low on HP and spells.

The next day, they killed all the goblins in Thistletop and dumped all their bodies in the water and rested in the fortress. So, my plan for their was to have Gogmut throw a swarm on them and other nasty things in the forest (revenge for murdering his entire tribe!). But, they needed to be driven into the forest. Queue Bruthazmus. And the PC he sniped from one of the goblin towers was an elf. Doing 15 dmg with one arrow scared the bejezus outta the players. Unfortunately, instead of using his climb and stealth to get away, he felt he could take on the PCs alone and fell to one save or die slumber spell. It was his character, but I shoulda gotten Orik in there. They never slept in the forest. Gogmurt never got his revenge :(

The next day they found Malfeshnekor! Passed right by Nualia's door. They saw I rolled a 2 and hit the armored paladin and were scared. They ran. They then tried to sleep in the underground dungeon, again, due to little prep, I didn't punish it.

My recommendation is to plan for everything. The dungeon shouldn't be static. The PCs shouldn't be allowed to easily sleep under enemy noses. I moved Nualia to the Lamashtu shrine for her fight.


Alexis Jefferson wrote:

My Thistletop experience was... odd.

None of the PCs could follow that druid goblin easily; use that to your advantage when retreating. He, Gogmurt, got away. His firepelt cougar, did not. The PCs didn't want to kill such a beautiful animal (we had a paladin of Shelyn with us). And the goblin didn't want to leave his animal to die. So, info for the firepelt cougar was traded (all while they are trading, he never left the hiding place, so it was like the forest was talking). The PCs promised not to kill any goblins. The PCs also intimidated him not to attack. Then they rested after clearing out the forest before Thistletop island. I did not expect them to rest then, so I didn't not come up with night attack ideas. Gogmut didn't attack since he was quite low on HP and spells.

The next day, they killed all the goblins in Thistletop and dumped all their bodies in the water and rested in the fortress. So, my plan for their was to have Gogmut throw a swarm on them and other nasty things in the forest (revenge for murdering his entire tribe!). But, they needed to be driven into the forest. Queue Bruthazmus. And the PC he sniped from one of the goblin towers was an elf. Doing 15 dmg with one arrow scared the bejezus outta the players. Unfortunately, instead of using his climb and stealth to get away, he felt he could take on the PCs alone and fell to one save or die slumber spell. It was his character, but I shoulda gotten Orik in there. They never slept in the forest. Gogmurt never got his revenge :(

The next day they found Malfeshnekor! Passed right by Nualia's door. They saw I rolled a 2 and hit the armored paladin and were scared. They ran. They then tried to sleep in the underground dungeon, again, due to little prep, I didn't punish it.

My recommendation is to plan for everything. The dungeon shouldn't be static. The PCs shouldn't be allowed to easily sleep under enemy noses. I moved Nualia to the Lamashtu shrine for her fight.

Negotiating with Gogmurt is a interesting role-playing solution to combat. Killing all the goblins after promising not to seems morally dubious but they are goblins after all. Until... I hear there's a paladin in the party. At that point, not to be too nit-picky, but killing all the goblins after promising not to seems pretty outrageous as in "you're not a paladin anymore, Mr. What Happened ToHonor" or "please see nearest high level cleric for Atonement."

Not too much preparation needed for parties foolish enough to rest in the dungeon. Simply have any surviving creatures in nearby areas attack. Their "before battle" tactics and associated stats should be just as applicable. If there aren't any survivors on "that level" than maybe resting there is safe, but in Thistletop that shouldn't be true until Malfeshnekor and the shadows are all that's left (two encounters that are fixed to their rooms.) Everyone else in the "dungeon" should be motivated to hunt down intruders. If you are merciful, you can have them come in waves (as they were grouped in rooms) until the party clues up and retreats.

I won't go so far to say that it would be impossible for a party to get far enough into the level to encounter Malfeshnekor without getting through Nualia first, I would suggest it should be hard and unlikely. And having done so, where are they resting? Even if Nualia is the only thing left alive, it seems odd to assume she never leaves her room and sits there oblivious. She should come out, discover all of her minions are dead and find the party resting. What does she do? She attacks - if they're resting, they'll only get stronger if she waits.

Another important point - the players have just solved a problem Nualia could never solve for herself - finding the secret door. The only character allied with her with perception enough to find the method for opening that door is Tsuto and he's presumably dead. Now she can get to Malfeshnekor - she's never giving that up without a fight. You could argue (RAW) that she can't break the binding but she sure can ally with him. And if she burns the party in offering to Lamashtu, she'll get the power to remove that binding (killing the party gets her enough xp to get to 5th level cleric and access to dispel magic)


It also depends. Did the goblins attack him? If so then he's allowed to kill them. His deal with Gogmurt works so long as he didn't initiate conflict. Of course, just showing his face will cause goblins to attack him so he doesn't need worry much about this... and the entity involved in the deal was evil and his tribe did kill several townsfolk during a raid not so long ago.

So really, the Gods will likely let this one slide because it's not like most of the goblins would have agreed to this. (Interesting about dumping them into the ocean though. I guess they were feeding Skippy who lives in the caves below the thorn maze? And hey, keeps certain priestesses from creating a zombie army...)


One member of the PCs was determined to get revenge on all the goblins for killing his family. With 6 players, sometimes its hard to RP so fighting ends up being easier when faced with a town's looming demise. They did spare 2 goblins, Gogmurt, the goblin wives, and goblin babies.

I did send a couple minions after them (the bugbear, a yeth hound), but felt sorry since they encountered the shadows and Malfeshnekor and got rekt a bit. I still am kind of a new GM, but because I didn't expect them to rest so much, so I didn't put up much of a fight. That's one reason I was explaining to be prepared for anything.

Right now I have 3-4 players and it's easier~


Thanks for sharing your experience, Alexis!! I'm kinda a new DM too, so my reflexes to react to some situations aren't that good.

And again, thank to you all, every bit of experience, advice and opinion helps me to level as a DM =D


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I'll add this -- if I could change one thing about my group's Nualia encounter, I would have made her hear them coming down the hall.

[spoiler="Thistletop Spoilers"]You see, my party took the "back" stairwell which put them right outside the Lyrie and Nualia's research room. Nualia was in the communication room, Bruthazmus and Tsuto were in their quarters and milling about the dungeon level, and Orik was sleeping.

So, my party, having no clue which door to enter, happened upon Lyrie first. The rogue, Mal, entered the room and immediately attacked Lyrie. Lyrie's morale fell, she took too much damage and she bolted back through the secret door in the room to meet up with Nualia. Before any of the other party members could react, Mal disappeared down the stairwell.

He chased Lyrie down the stairs, through the entrance hall, and fell right into the trap in the hallway. He got stuck and couldn't get himself out, and ended up with almost no HP left.

This is where I wish I had a chance to go back and re-play this scenario: the rest of the party started yelling for Mal, attempting to locate him in the pit under the trap door. They were yelling and banging on walls, dragging pieces of broken statue around, and generally making a racket. Once they found Mal, it must have taken them at least 5 rounds to finally get him out (why they never thought to just disarm the trap? I'll never know...). During this time, they were making all sorts of noise, with Lyrie and Nualia just down the hall in the next room. Had I thought to, I would have had them both come out swinging while the rogue was stuck and the rest of the party completely unaware of the threat.

In the end, all the NPC's in the dungeon with class levels besides Orik surrounded my PCs and nearly killed them, but the PC's ultimately prevailed. Then they fought the shadows and nearly died.

Scarab Sages

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Sigh, this is what I get for going on travel and not checking the message board. Nynphaiel, it sounds like you have quite the problem. My initial gut response was cut your losses and find another group. But, the more I read through the boards, the more I realized that would be a bad response. In a lot of ways, your group sounds like my group when I first started running for them. It was rough. Very rough. And they schooled me HARD CORE. But, once I got a few campaigns under my belt, the tides turned, and they're pretty good now. I might reiterate what others said, but here's my take.

Nynphaiel wrote:

Help. Please. I'm begging.

I'm pretty sure my run of RotRL has been the most troubled run ever. I'm currently at the 3.1 version of it, after several players left the table (apparently, playing every other saturday was too much of a commitment to them). But finally, got the party. This weekend was the 3rd session, which ended up when they found Tsuto's letter.

You'll have some players who walk, especially if they're new to the group, or don't understand your style of play. I had one walk because he wrote into his character background that he was the favored nephew of the mayor. I guessed correctly that he wanted to use her to get whatever he wanted whenever he wanted. But, he gave me an excuse in his background to turn this against him, and didn't know how to handle it when I took all of those nifty toys he thought he was going to get away from him in the first five minutes of the session. Let's just say that Deverin is political and there was no way she'd risk her career over some upstart nephew who embarrassed her (in his write up!).

Point is, some players will walk. Some will stay. I had another player leave for real life reasons. He knows he's always welcome back at the table.

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The session was... problematic. Two of my players are Pathfinder DMs. Another player comes from D&D. And the fourth one comes from Vampire (where it seems it's OK if your PC is a sadistic a**hole, and nothing happens when you act as a jerk).

I don't allow metagaming at my table. I have ended campaigns over it. Regretfully, but necessary. I don't allow OoC knowledge, and no GM should, IMHO. As DM's, we think we know better. Being arrogant can come with the shield, and with your group build, a little of it might not be a bad idea. My group sense my weakness with 3rd ed when I started DMing for them (always ran 2nd before them), and took me for a ride.

I also have a Vampire LARPer at my table, though he's not like yours. Sorry about that. That sucks.

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The main issues (and the solutions I've came up so far) are next, but please, give me your opinion. At this point, anything helps.

1) They don't listen. Not to me, not among them. Not as players, nor as characters. They keep interrupting each other. Solution: no one can interrupt. It's a matter of respect, for God's sake. Be civilized, otherwise, you're out of the table for ten minutes.

LOL! Awesome! Sucks for the lack of respect, but I like the punishment!

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2) Meta-knowledge. Both the DM-players got knowledge from other sources. I'm dealing with this in two ways: some of it (the info they got wrong), I let them keep, until they find an NPC that laughs at them for having such ridiculous ideas. It has worked, so far. It has even made them more... humble. When they go too far, I tell them to stop using knowledge their characters don't have. It wasn't as succesful as the other solution.

Like I said, I have ended campaigns over this crap. This was the big one that made me want to say to find a new group. It really sounds like they have no respect for you, let alone respect as a DM.

Players don't understand the amount of time we GM/DM's take in game prep. Not until they step behind the shield. And it doesn't sound like that even works for your guys.

Just remember, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If your players want to use OoC knowledge, you could always let the monsters do the same. I knew it sounds petty, and might not end well, but if they won't listen to you in any other way, slap them in the face with it.

What it all comes down to is respect. Respect for you. Respect for each other. Respect for the game and for the shield you sit behind. And it sounds like that is sorely lacking.

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3) Not enough meta-knowledge? The Vampire-player thinks he is the medieval Superman of this story. He wants to go alone to clean up the forests. He has a ranger. He has 10 hp. He is insane. Apparently, this is due to the lack of knowledge as how the system works. Not pretty sure how to handle this. Maybe explaining how this works? Also thought of talking about this from the character's perspective: why the heck would a foreigner that has just arrived to town go into a suicidal mission to clean the forests from goblins, which is also impossible?

This one has been covered pretty well. I always warn my players that there will be consequences for their actions. We'll get more into that with your 5th issue! Try taking him aside and explaining to him the game concepts. If that doesn't work, ask him to have a new character ready to go, and let him do what he wants. He will learn eventually, or find a new game.

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4) Ego. They have decided they know more. They are better experts in Thassilonian ruins than Brodert, they think they know better as how to rule the Militia... and the town. Seriously. The words 'they have no idea how to rule this town, we do' were said on the table. I'm thinking about trying to show them the big picture: they are newcomers, and don't know anything about the town, nor the NPCs. How can you judge anything without knowing it? Also, there is no motivation for the characters to do a lot more than to help people when they're being asked, and to try to figure out who was behind the goblin attack. I mean, do you really believe that if there was a dungeon in the lighthouse, which has been in the middle of the town the past 50 years, no one would have realised by now?

5) Alignment. One of the characters stabbed a militia member because they thought he was suspicious. Solution: they lost the discounts, have penalties to Diplomacy checks, and lost any privilege. They can't purchase in some stores. The only reason why the character wasn't send to prison, is because the other players intervened. Should I be harsher with this?

I'm going to cover these last two together. When these sorts of things happen, I tend to step back and try to look at the situation from the NPCs point of view. How would I feel if someone came into my town and started trying to push people around and tell them what to do? I'd push back. Hard.

Even if the players did save a bunch of people from goblins, that doesn't give them to right to run roughshod over the townsfolk. If necessary, I think the town might even form up a mob and try to run them out of town. Enough "low level" mooks can overbear, pin, and tie up the mightiest fighter.

The down side of this is that if it were to come to this, the campaign would be pretty much done. But, if the players continue along like they are, I don't see it going much further anyway. Eventually, most every AP is built on the premise that the players WANT to HELP the world they live in be a better place. RotRL is definitely built on that premise. If the players don't want to help, and just want to boss people around, there are AP's better suited to that style of play. The Shattered Star and Kingmaker series are both built for open alignment play. It may be time to shift to one of those and let them feel free to act more like they want to.

Best of luck in your campaign, and feel free to PM me with any other concerns. Like I said, I had to deal with issues just like these when I first started running my group. We've stuck together over the years anyway, and adapted to each other's play styles. Just remember, YOU are the DM, not them, and make sure that it's fun. Not just for them, but for you as well!


William, I'm so sorry I never answered you. The thing is, I read your response on time, and found it pretty useful.

Things got a lot better. From time to time, some trouble arises, but I know how to handle it. I learnt sometimes I need to be a bit ruthless, but that's ok, since it's what will keep the game fun.

Thanks again to all of you for taking the time to answer me.

Cheers,
Nyn

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