I'm new to Pathfinder and am looking to build a bard that is both melee and support. I've been looking through arcane duelist, dervish dancer and dawnflower dervish but really can't decide which one is best for what I want. There will only be two melee characters in our group (including my bard) so I think I'm leaning to one of the dervish archetypes. Any advice you guys can provide?
Lvl, pointbuy, others in group?
Helps if we have more information
Just a word of advice: the dawnflower dervish is better up not even touching a scimitar.
This is because it does not properly utilize the huge advantage of the double bonuses that the battle dance gives inspire courage. The benefits are on each and every single hit, so having a ton of hits would be best. So TWF or archery are typically the best options. With either of those, your bonuses to hit and damage are actually on par with a raging barbarian. Especially when you throw in arcane strike on top of that.
Lvl, pointbuy, others in group?
Helps if we have more information
Beginning at level 1 and playing Rise of the Runelords. We'll be doing a 15 point buy (may be able to change this if I ask). Unfortunately I don't know the party composition yet besides there will be one other melee. Not playing PFS.
Melee is my first priority, support is my second.
With a dawnflower dervish that doesn't go with the scimitar, do you just wait until agile weapon for dex bonus then or do you use a str build and ignore the feat altogether?
Hmmm....admittedly, with that kind of point buy, you might want to grab a scimitar for use until after you get your feats together. So scimitars until you get: weapon finesse, TWF, arcane strike, and maybe improved TWF.
Even without agile weapons, you can get +2 to +8 to damage to each hit from inspire courage, and +1 to +5 from arcane strike. Doubling all that is more than enough justification to make the switch even if you must forsake the few points of damage from dex to damage.
Thanks for the advice so far. Working on the Azata Blooded Aasimar Dawnflower Dervish right now. Kind of bummed about not being able to inspire courage on the group but it does look like the best match for what I want to do.
Pet bard sounds kind of neat, but not really the concept I have in mind.
With a 15 point buy you cannot expect to go for TWF feats with a Str based bard. It is nice in theory but in practise you need to be high lvl in order to reap the benefits of the TWF or even archery style as a dawnflower dervish.I say start with a Dex build and use a Scimitar. The feat invested in TWF or archery can be invested in other useful staff. This way you will be effective at every stage of the game, instead of waiting with useless feats until the high lvls in order to shine.
For example, you could take Eldrich Heritage (Arcane) and Improved Familiar and have Faerie Dragon casting haste on you without losing your own actions.
Azata Blooded Aassimar, 15 pb
STR 10
DEX 18
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 16
Would a 20 pb open up more options? How would you go about that?
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Here is my opinion, for what it's worth.
I think that, when you take inspire courage away from a bard to focus on his own melee ability, there are better class options. Inspiring your group is the main ability the bard brings to a group (unless they are the better rogue option). That's why people cheer when one person shows up with a bard, because you are going to make them awesome. I wouldn't get rid of it, personally. If it is just you and one other melee and the rest are casters, maybe it makes sense at higher level play but, at 1st level through mid-levels, it helps those casters have crossbow options when their small load of spells are spent. Those actions add up until the casters start taking care of you in later levels.
Arcane duelist and savage skald could be built for melee and support. Half Orc savage skald power attacking with a falchion in melee, inspiring his comrades, extra buffing on crits, and making the other melee guy rage at critical fights could be fun. Cha can be lower with the half Orc racial option for +1 round of performance per level.
Another option might be arcane duelist 3 / order of the cockatrice cavalier 2 then into battle herald. Then you really inspire the group, debuff the enemy, and have a better bab progression. Plus you are laying tactician down with your other melee buddy.
Yeah that was my biggest worry about the two dervish builds. I really would like to inspire the group if possible. I haven't looked into savage skald yet maybe I'll read up some on them. For race I'd like to stick with human or aasimar most likely. Any other thoughts on the arcane duelist? They don't seem to be well liked.
Don't think I'm interested in any cavalier levels, not much interested in the class.
Have you thought about Arcane Duelist 5/Dragon Disciple4/Rest???
Grab a longspear, wear a buckler, you keep inspire courage and get Arcane Strike as bonus feat and a bonded item (see wizard).
You lose some of the vanilla bard stuff (esp. the knowledge/skill-related stuff).
With Dragon Disciple you add +4 to Str, some Natural Armor, natural attacks (bite, 2 claws for a couple of rounds/day) and better hp.
Ruyan.
Have you thought about Arcane Duelist 5/Dragon Disciple4/Rest???
Grab a longspear, wear a buckler, you keep inspire courage and get Arcane Strike as bonus feat and a bonded item (see wizard).
You lose some of the vanilla bard stuff (esp. the knowledge/skill-related stuff).
With Dragon Disciple you add +4 to Str, some Natural Armor, natural attacks (bite, 2 claws for a couple of rounds/day) and better hp.Ruyan.
That is a cool combo but I wouldn't be able have a roleplaying justification for it.
Makes me realize just how many combinations I haven't looked at. It sucks being new. :p
I vote Arcane Duelist. I like that archetype, I think it is well-crafted for a combat-focused bard. The abilities you get compared to what you lose is a real plus for a "bard" that wants to portray himself as a fighter or knight or paladin. The theme supports multiple different front-line 'styles' and armored casting can workout to a nice advantage for a bard that stays in reach of the enemies.
Is it better to focus on power strike and a 2hander with arcane duelist or dex and TWF?
Oh and I was able to get a 20 pb! So that makes things a bit easier.
Found out some more about the grp if it hrlps at all. Greatsword using ranger, conjuration school wizard and a plague bringer alchemist.
Still so undecided. I don't want lose inspire as grp buffs but dervish really looks so much better.
Thanks for all the advice so far, still lots to think about.
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You might consider a half-elf archaeologist bard who takes the scimitar proficiency from his race and goes for the Dervish Dancer feat. I found it was fun and quite effective! You won't be able to inspire courage, but you would be able to provide all of the face, trap-finding, and skill-monkey rolls a rogue would normally fill.
The Fate's Favored trait is a huge boost to this archetype's power, and with a courageous +1 scimitar and extended heroism, every attack, save, and skill roll that I care to use my archaeologist's luck on is very, very likely to succeed. Fight defensively, because you'll probably still hit on anything but a 1.
For a support bard who is also good in melee, Arcane Duelist is the way to go. For a melee bard that can do some support, Dawnflower dervish is what you want.
For a support bard who is also good in melee, Arcane Duelist is the way to go. For a melee bard that can do some support, Dawnflower dervish is what you want.
This seems like a pretty good way to put it. It seems like I just need to figure out which I'd rather do.
A dex based aasimar savage scald would be a compromise between the supportive and the melee bard, with a clear emphasis on the supportive part. Use a rapier and shield and your alt. racial class bonus on inspire courage.
Would you mind giving me an idea of what this would look like? I haven't looked too much into the finesse feats yet and this sounds really interesting.
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Here's a post from someone who played a melee bard from levels 1 through 15. He emphasizes how awesome the inferior-seeming longspear can be for a Bard. It also works great with the Flagbearer feat. This gives your entire team +2 +2 combat bonuses from first level, for the win.
I played a melee bard from level 1-12 and I can attest to the awesomeness of the longspear for this kind of character.
Here's a post from someone who played a melee bard from levels 1 through 15. He emphasizes how awesome the inferior-seeming longspear can be for a Bard. It also works great with the Flagbearer feat. This gives your entire team +2 +2 combat bonuses from first level, for the win.
Great thread, thanks a bunch for the link.
I played a melee bard from level 1-12 and I can attest to the awesomeness of the longspear for this kind of character.
Did you do this with an Arcane Duelist?
I actually did it with Savage Skald, for flavour reasons. It was a Norse Campaign.