Mikko Kallio RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 |
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For the benefit of everyone in the top32 + the alts, I want to check how the "keep quiet" rule works this year (and also to remind my fellow finalists about it so no-one says something that's against the rules just because they didn't know about it).
I remember how things worked back in 2012 when I was in the top 32, but last year I didn't pay so much attention to that particular thing. I remember it's acceptable to say "thank you" in your entry's discussion thread, but I do recall there was some discussion about changing that to make it really clear what's ok and what's not.
1a) Judges, are we still allowed to say "thank you, please vote for me"?
1b) Voters, would you consider it rude if a contestant didn't say anything at all during the public voting rounds, just to be on the safe side?
2a) Judges, is it ok to "acknowledge" any favorable comments in your entry's thread by favoriting them?
2b) Voters, would you consider this to break the spirit of the rules if not the letter?
3a) Judges, are the top 32 contestants or alts allowed to expose any perceived or real flaws in other finalists' entries during public votings? Would you advise against it even if it's technically allowed?
3b) Voters, would you consider this kind of conduct cowardly and unsportsmanlike? OR would you say it's fully within the rights of the finalists and alts to "help" the voters?
Personally, I don't have a strong opinion about 1) and 2) either way, but I'm very much against 3) even if it's just "Cool concept, but I don't think it would fit in my campaign".
Tripp Elliott RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9 aka Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan |
All good questions Mikko.
I believe my intent, and the Dawnflower help me I'll try, is to say absolutely nothing in the 32 monster threads until voting is over. I trust that other voters won't think I'll of me for not appreciating their comments directly. Trust me now, I will appreciate every comment, compliment, and critique provided, but I will ATTEMPT to write nothing in those boards for the days of voting.
Which is really all the better, as I'll need the time to draft up an encounter right?
Now, I might rib some of the other contestants in a PM though!!!
JollyRoger Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7 |
I'm a voter, so I will give my opinion on the 'b' questions:
1b) No, I would consider it wise caution.
2b) Yes, it's best to err on the side of caution.
3b) Yes! Let the judges guide the voters. The voters can decide for themselves without any additional "help."
It's my understanding that part of being a creative professional is knowing when to keep quiet. Your ability to do so is as much on display as your design skills. Choose your words wisely.
Starglim Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8 |
3) I would like to think that as many of the community as have an interest could take part in a frank discussion about the merits of each entry. However, you're probably right, not necessarily that contestants would talk down their fellow finalists' work in an unsportsmanlike fashion, but that the perception that they might have done so could introduce an unpleasant tone and possible backlash on unproven and mostly-irrelevant grounds. It may be better to avoid an appearance of bad motives.
Jacob W. Michaels RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9 aka motteditor |
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I was just looking this up last night myself, actually, and couldn't find anything (granted, I was exhausted, so may easily have missed it).
For whatever reason, I like being able to do the boilerplate "Thanks for your comments and please vote for me," even if it's kind of obvious that we're appreciative. But that's the only thing about the round's entries -- good or bad -- that I think should be posted (including favoriting items) until voting ends. Honestly, that's just good practice to make sure you don't accidentally say something to get yourself disqualified (which happened to one person in 2012).
FWIW, my impression was there was some backlash in 2012 against contestants believed to be talking down about other items, though obviously I have no way of proving that.
Eric Hindley RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32, 2011 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Boxhead |
I think last year they removed even the boilerplate responses as an option. The only real point of them was to bump your thread back into view, and I think it just cluttered the threads.
I tend to look unfavourably on any contestant posting anything in another contestant's threads. It either is a meaningless "cool idea", or it looks like you're trying to point out flaws. You should have better things to do with your time.
Mike Kimmel RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8 |
Maurice de Mare RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9 aka Darkjoy |
Curaigh Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9 |
1a) Judges, are we still allowed to say "thank you, please vote for me"?1b) Voters, would you consider it rude if a contestant didn't say anything at all during the public voting rounds, just to be on the safe side?
2a) Judges, is it ok to "acknowledge" any favorable comments in your entry's thread by favoriting them?
2b) Voters, would you consider this to break the spirit of the rules if not the letter?
3a) Judges, are the top 32 contestants or alts allowed to expose any perceived or real flaws in other finalists' entries during public votings? Would you advise against it even if it's technically allowed?
3b) Voters, would you consider this kind of conduct cowardly and unsportsmanlike? OR would you say it's fully within the rights of the finalists and alts to "help" the voters?
1a. it did change a bit last year, but I find nothing in the rules. Until a judge responds: better safe than sorry, however.
1b. Far from being rude, per the rules, I consider staying quiet professional.2b. I would consider it breaking the spirit of the rules, as a 'favorited by x' is rarely looked at to see who did the favoring. (I believe Neil hit reply to those copied the text into a document, and then reposted the all the questions and answers when appropriate. Others have followed his lead. )
3b. very unsportsmanlike, though congratulating and encouraging them would be good sportsmanship in my opinion.
R D Ramsey Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Clouds Without Water |
I don't care much either way about 1.
As for 2, picking and choosing comments to favorite is a form of comment, and certainly could be used to indicate when someone got your "intent" and did not, and that's exactly the kind of thing the rule is meant to prevent. I'd say don't do it.
And 3... Well, it might be allowed. And if that's you're instinct... Then I know not to vote for you. I'd never vote for a contestant that criticized the other entries during voting.
Once voting was over, I'd be open to constructive criticism from contestants, but keep in mind that many, many people would see it as negativity and it would hurt you.
zylphryx Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7 |
yeah, I would advise just not saying anything in any form. No reason to jeopardize your entry.
Everyone knows the top 32 is thankful for the consideration their items are getting and would like everyone to vote for their item. You don't need to post such during voting.
I would not favorite any comments until after the voting is over either, be it on your item or another contestant's. It's not needed and is parallel to actually making a comment (you're kicking out the equivalent to a "+1" for any post you favorite).
I would consider a contestant who posted negatively in another contestant's item thread to be a poor sportsman and would actively vote against such behavior. The old adage of "if you can't say something nice, say nothing" should definitely hold true for the contestants.
But all this is just my 2cp and YMMV.
Brian J. Fruzen RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8 |
I like attending the design seminars at conventions like Gen Con, and one point that consistently comes up during those seminars is that the RPG industry is much smaller than most people on the outside think.
Be respectful. Be courteous. I'm going to make an effort to win this contest, but if I don't win, I don't want to tank any future professional relationships because I thought I could eke out an extra vote or two by playing dirty, even if the rules don't strictly prohibit it.
If I need to rely on pointing out the flaws in other contestant's work to make my own look better, that doesn't say much about my work, or me. At the end of the day, this is about putting forward the best that we can do as designers. My work needs to stand on its own. It shouldn't need to pull out the chair from someone else's to be worthy of a vote.
When voting begins, my monster will have to do the talking for me.
Mike Kimmel RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8 |
Monica Marlowe RPG Superstar 2015 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka mamaursula |
1b) Voters, would you consider it rude if a contestant didn't say anything at all during the public voting rounds, just to be on the safe side?2b) Voters, would you consider this to break the spirit of the rules if not the letter?
3b) Voters, would you consider this kind of conduct cowardly and unsportsmanlike? OR would you say it's fully within the rights of the finalists and alts to "help" the voters?
1b - Your job as the contestant is to follow PAIZO's rules. Those rules say you should make no comments. If a voter thinks you're rude because you do not speak at all, then they do not understand the rules and one vote is unlikely or make or break your item in the voting.
2b - Your job as a contest is to follow PAIZO's rules. Commenting in any way, even just "favoriting" a comment breaks this rule if you want to win, DO NOT DO THIS.
3b - You should ABSOLUTELY NOT comment on ANY other entry. Someone will discover the mistake, error or anything else you think should be brought up.
Honestly Mikko, are you trying to get yourself or your fellow contestants disqualified before the reveal?
If your name sports the RPG SuperStar 2014 Top 32, you need to be in Radio Silence Mode starting now.
Mikko Kallio RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 |
Thanks for the replies!
Mamaursula, honestly I want to know if I can say "thanks". I also want to know if it's expected by the voters or not. I believe the other finalists also deserve to know.
Personally, I intend to keep quiet during the voting rounds and I'm not going to favorite any posts or comment on other people's entries. Regardless of what I'm going to do, everyone should know what we're allowed to do and what we're not. I hope you agree. :)
Andrew Black RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka MythrilDragon |
In the 2012 competition a contestant was DQ'd for not "following the "keep quite" rule. This is the thread that announced it. Disqualification
In the thread your very question is asked...
Chris Shaeffer wrote:That's a shame. :(
Am I correct in assuming we will still be allowed to post the "Thank you, vote for me!" message in our entries?
I'll refer you to...
Sean K. Reynold wrote:In future rounds, competitors will not be allowed to post about about their submissions at all while voting is open.I took that to mean, nothing at all. Besides, who at this point doesn't know that all of you would like to thank those commenting on your thread and encourage them to vote for you? It's kind of superfluous really.
I don't think it can get any clearer than this. Of course you can say "Thanks" you just have to wait until after the voting period for the round is over.
Victoria Jaczko RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7 aka Belladonna Blue |
Thanks for posting this, Mikko, and everyone for the comments.
I'm not wildly chatty in any case, but I think I'll be ratcheting down on banter from here on out. (At least until the contest is over for me, one way or another.)
Better or worse, I do want my monster to speak for itself. I've still been in the mindset of being a spectator and not a contestant, and I'll be keeping what that means in mind going forward.
Andrew Black RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka MythrilDragon |
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The Gag Order is only in place during the open voting to prevent contestants from trying to influence our votes. You can't say anything about your entry if someone posts in your thread about your intentions you are not allowed to clarify. You are not allowed to suggest what you were aiming at, or to add extra material that might have made the entry clearer, but you didn't find a way to fit in the Word Count limit. You can't go into another contestants thread and point out or comment on perceived flaws or errors to give you a better chance. There will be enough people posting that any and all concerns will probably be addressed anyway...the judges will see to the most glaring ones.
Between the voting periods we want to get to know you. We know you want a chance to express your gratitude and to thank the voters for supporting you. We know you are dying to answer questions about the entry and there is time for that once the voting is done. Just remember to keep it professional and friendly and to wait until the appropriate time. If you win this you get to write professionally and part of that is being able to abide by Non-Disclosure Agreements. Use the voting period to practice that :) After that give us the press release and let us know how you are doing and what you are up to. (Except don't tell us what you are up to for the next round.)
GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!
Mikko Kallio RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 |
Everyone, thanks for the input.
Andrew, thanks for the reminder about how R3 went in 2012 -- I was no longer in the running, so I didn't read every thread. Sadly, it is not clear if the absolute gag order is still in effect. In fact, I think the part of the rules that says "no discussion" has not changed at all! Which is really rather confusing. It would be horribly unfair for a contestant to be DQ'd because they didn't read every thread in existence. Reading the contest rules should give you enough information.
Based on the replies received, I propose the following:
1) Do not post anything at all in your own entry's thread while the public voting round is open. We hope that the voters will see this as a sign of professionalism. However, we cannot ecpect that everyone reads Sean's thread from 2012 or this thread (or any similar threads written in the past), so please keep that in mind.
2) Also, during public voting rounds, do not favorite posts in your entry's thread because it may be seen as a "clever" way to get around the gag order.
3) While we welcome all feedback on our entries - it helps us grow as designers - any comments from a fellow finalist may be viewed as an unsportsmanlike effort to undermine another's work. If you're in the top 32 and want to help a fellow contestant to improve, please post your comment after the voting round has closed.
I hope the judges will chime in if anything above contradicts what they consider a reasonable interpretation of the contest rules and what's been discussed in the years past.
Sean K Reynolds Designer, RPG Superstar Judge |
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The rules say: 5. During public voting rounds, contestants are prohibited from any public discussion that could be considered as adding to, expanding upon, or clarifying the content of their current submissions. This applies to (but is not limited to) interviews, personal blogs, and messageboard posts on paizo.com or elsewhere, including the paizo.com discussion thread for the entry itself. Any such discussion may result in disqualification, in the sole discretion of the judges and/or Paizo Publishing.
In other words, there is no absolute ban on commenting.
So, to answer your specific questions.
1a) Judges, are we still allowed to say "thank you, please vote for me"?
Yes!
2a) Judges, is it ok to "acknowledge" any favorable comments in your entry's thread by favoriting them?
Yes!
3a) Judges, are the top 32 contestants or alts allowed to expose any perceived or real flaws in other finalists' entries during public votings? Would you advise against it even if it's technically allowed?
It is technically allowed, but I advice against it.
Eric Morton RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9 aka Epic Meepo |
Mikko Kallio wrote:2a) Judges, is it ok to "acknowledge" any favorable comments in your entry's thread by favoriting them?Yes!
Although favoriting favorable comments is technically okay, I will vote against anyone who does it.
I know from my 2009 run that it's very easy to clarify the content of your submission by waiting for a post that makes your argument for you and then calling as much attention to it as possible. The judges let me get away with it back then, but I wouldn't have been as lenient if I were in their shoes.
Mikko Kallio RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 |