#5.01 The Glass River Rescue, Encounter C. Over-Powered?


GM Discussion

Grand Lodge

Understanding that this is also for levels 2-3, my primary comment on this relates to level 1 characters, especially for 1st time players of PFS.

Including a Young River Drake who shoots a 5-foot-radius spread acid attack doing 2d6 points of acid damage and 1d4 damage thereafter (for those hit), this seems like an aggressive move for characters with an apx. HP of 10, especially as the party will likely be centered on the Water Snake it has flung on-board previously, so can all be easily hit by a well-timed spread.

Even with the reduce Reflex save (40% chance to avoid the attack) this can easily spell TPK to a party with low rolls or who are lacking a well stocked healer.

Does this seem like an overly intense encounter for a Tier 1-2 to anyone else? Or am I going to light on low level players?

And as a personal, unrelated, side note...
"The captain of the Abacus takes the boat down whichever river fork the PCs suggest; however, both routes lead to the encounter described below.."
...is super lame. The illusion of choice is not a choice. I'd feel better having players just head right into the encounter rather then having them left with a fake "decision" to make. (Apologies to Mike Shel, but this element of an otherwise intriguing scenario is lacking.)

Contributor

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CAndrew Wilson wrote:


"The captain of the Abacus takes the boat down whichever river fork the PCs suggest; however, both routes lead to the encounter described below.."

...is super lame. The illusion of choice is not a choice. I'd feel better having players just head right into the encounter rather then having them left with a fake "decision" to make. (Apologies to Mike Shel, but this element of an otherwise intriguing scenario is lacking.)

No apologies necessary. This is an oft-cited complaint about the scenario that is totally my bad (rather than a glitch that appeared during John's development). I had intended on inserting combat tactics affected by the presence of the tree canopy overhead and neglected to do so.

Mea culpa. ; )

Re: the power of the encounter itself, while I believe it can be a dangerous combat, I haven't heard any tales of actual TPKs.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

2 people marked this as a favorite.

*shrug* to each their own. I like the occasional 'illusion of choice'

Scarab Sages 4/5

CAndrew Wilson wrote:

Understanding that this is also for levels 2-3, my primary comment on this relates to level 1 characters, especially for 1st time players of PFS.

Including a Young River Drake who shoots a 5-foot-radius spread acid attack doing 2d6 points of acid damage and 1d4 damage thereafter (for those hit), this seems like an aggressive move for characters with an apx. HP of 10, especially as the party will likely be centered on the Water Snake it has flung on-board previously, so can all be easily hit by a well-timed spread.

Keep in mind, if you do have a table of completely new players, it's one of the few times deviating from the tactics might be encouraged if they would result in a likely TPK.

GtOP wrote:

Dealing with Death

Given the dangers characters face once they become Pathfinders, character death is a very real possibility (and a necessary one to maintain a sense of risk and danger in the game). Consider, however, that for players new to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, or to the Pathfinder RPG in general, a violent death in a first experience can turn them off to the campaign and the game altogether. While we don’t advocate fudging die rolls, consider the experience of the player when deciding whether to use especially lethal tactics or if a character is in extreme danger of death, especially when the player is new to the game. Most players whose first experience in a campaign results in a character death don’t return to the campaign.

So, I would say that gives you the go ahead as the GM, when the group is primarily made up of players new to Pathfinder Society, to refrain from having the drake spray the group of them with acid when they all conveniently bunch up. I'd try to figure some way out to use it as a learning experience, though, so they know what could have happened.

Sovereign Court

I ran this several times shortly after it came out. The only thing that was remotely deadly was the fact that half the characters didn't have ranged weaponry. For that, I feel no pity for them.
The acid spray was nowhere near as lethal as it could have been, and just about everyone made the initial save. The major upside is the spray can only be done every 1d6 rounds. This allows people to spread out after they realize "Oh crap, it can do that?!". Meanwhile they're dealing with it flying above them, diving down, attacking, then flying back up due to its Speed Surge (three times only). It may well be a tough fight, but I have never dropped anyone from that fight.
So no, I don't think it's overpowered in the least.

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Minnesota—Minneapolis aka Silbeg

I ran this a while back, with a table of 4 mostly newbies, and while it was tough, they survived it. Of course, with 4 of them, they didn't get the snake (which would die to any martial character in a single attack, most likely).

The worst part for them was the ranger in the crow's nest... The drake, being an intelligent critter, saw the risk of facing three PCs on the deck, and only one in the crow's nest. Guess which one it took?

The battle was a long one, as it turned out, with the group's rogue (brand new PC with a brand new player) climbing up the mast to help out. The ranger had to drop his bow, and go melee, while the other two (a cleric and a barbarian, as I recall), did what they could from below (mostly just shooting up through the rigging, though the cleric didn't have any ranged weapons).

Again, a VERY close encounter, but survivable.

In fact, I think it was worse for our full party at 4-5... the drakes almost killed one character by grabbing and pulling under water... and my wizard was VERY concerned when he got grabbed, but was saved by a smiting paladin!

I thought it was a really good encounter. Tough enough to give the PCs reason to worry... not so tough that they couldn't survive.

Grand Lodge

Mike Shel wrote:
No apologies necessary. This is an oft-cited complaint about the scenario that is totally my bad (rather than a glitch that appeared during John's development).

Very cool of you Sir.

Silbeg wrote:
I ran this a while back, with a table of 4 mostly newbies, and while it was tough, they survived it.

It definitely was a prolonged battle (ran over an hour), with the GM having to go light.

It was made especially difficult as party rolls for the first 80% of the battle rarely occurred above a 10, and the GM was rolling hot with no roll below a 15, and damage rolls typically near max (recurring acid damage was almost always max). It was thanks to the cleric's healing that the party survived. The group ended up needing to take a 1 day rest before proceeding, due to 1 player taking Con damage and the cleric exhausting all their spells.

As the party had successfully negotiated their way through Xer and had paper's for the checkpoint, this was the first combat encounter. Such a prolonged (and almost lost) battle, against two very tiny creatures, was kind of disheartening, especially as three of the group were 1st time PFS players. Luckily by end of night the tables turned in the final encounter, as all party rolls were much higher and GM rolls much lower (probability to the rescue), making them feel much more like heroes in the end.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Mike Shel wrote:
CAndrew Wilson wrote:


"The captain of the Abacus takes the boat down whichever river fork the PCs suggest; however, both routes lead to the encounter described below.."

...is super lame. The illusion of choice is not a choice. I'd feel better having players just head right into the encounter rather then having them left with a fake "decision" to make. (Apologies to Mike Shel, but this element of an otherwise intriguing scenario is lacking.)

No apologies necessary. This is an oft-cited complaint about the scenario that is totally my bad (rather than a glitch that appeared during John's development). I had intended on inserting combat tactics affected by the presence of the tree canopy overhead and neglected to do so.

I ran this at a con, and I actually did plan different tactics for the drakes, depending on what the party did. I haven't GM'ed the low tier version, but I have played the low tier. Remember, the 5' spread is centered on an intersection, not a square, so at most it is getting 4 squares. It is pretty hard to catch the whole party in that, and it would take a fair bit of luck to get them all and have them fail their reflex saves.

Also, when I ran it, when the captain asked which way to go, the players asked why it mattered. He shrugged, said as far as his charts went both routes looked the same, and that it was just a matter of "Do you want to sail under bright skies, or under shady trees?" That was enough to get the players thinking about the possibility of danger, and tactics, and so they decided that since they were a range heavy group, open skies were good for them, and it made the choice feel a little more relevant and less forced.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

When I played the target of the acid was the paladin, whose poor Reflex meant that he was forced to roll save after save while the rest of us had nothing we could do besides heal him and hope he made the save. Not having a divine spellcaster hurt us there as well.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

So, am I misunderstanding what a 5' radius spread is?

Isn't that just a single 5' square, or should it be four squares radiating from the intersection of attack, or a 5 square cross, the target square, and the squares orthogonally attached to it?

Which one of the following represents the spread?
___
_X_
___

____
_XX_
_XX_
____

_X_
XXX
_X_

Scarab Sages 4/5

I believe it's the middle one, but I don't have the rule quote to back it up.

Your first diagram would only have a 2.5 foot radius. Your last diagram would have a 7.5 foot radius.

4/5

Magic section of crb the section on area of spells. It is the middle
____
_xx_
_xx_
____one for a 5' spread.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Kinevon. radius is different if it is a spell or a splash weapon.

For a spell it is the 2 by 2 square around an intersection.

For a splash weapon it is a 3 by 3 square centered on a target square if targeting a creature, or 2 by 2 square if targeting a empty space.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

FLite wrote:
Kinevon. radius is different if it is a spell or a splash weapon.

True, but the drake's attack is not a splash weapon.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

TriOmegaZero wrote:
FLite wrote:
Kinevon. radius is different if it is a spell or a splash weapon.
True, but the drake's attack is not a splash weapon.

Correct. I was just explaining why people get confused.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

I guess my GM did it wrong last Sunday.

Not that it would have mattered, since his target was standing alone. Then again, it might have changed his target criteria with the attack. But probably not.

Then again, I still think it would have been amusing if he had targeted my PC, since my PC is an aasimar, and therefore gets acid resistance...


Matthew Morris wrote:
*shrug* to each their own. I like the occasional 'illusion of choice'

Providing the players with fake choices is a disingenuous way to approach the game. The core assumption for all players is that their choices matter. Regardless of whether the player is aware or unaware, if the story doesn't honor the decisions made by the players, then what's the point? Even if the players are fooled this approach essentially undermines the game at its core. The core fabric of the game is based on the players making choices. I don't know why anyone would hold that out as a valid offering of an RPG.

I'm grateful to see the author's response "mea culpa." Even the author does not defend a fake choice as being an acceptable device. And while I agree that such a tactic can be useful in extremely limited circumstances, it ultimately backfires if/when players learn the truth, and in these days of the Internet, you should assume they will.

Sovereign Court

I am going to run this on Saturday and it looks like it will be for a Tier 1-2 party. I don't think that a TPK is even possible with tactics, but I can easily see one character dying before anyone else even gets to act.

With a stealth of +16 with another +8 for cover, no one is likely to have a chance of seeing it stealthed in the water. So surprise round.

In the surprise round, it can easily spend its swift to gain the move action to rise out of the water, use a free action to drop the snake over the rail and use its Standard to spit.

Assuming the 2d6 doesn't drop a player, and the drake wins initiative, it can easily pounce. If the tail slap drops a player, it can grapple with the bite. If the tail drops a player, they are now an object and can be dragged. Another swift will grant a move action and allow the drake to drag up to 487.5lbs up to 15ft.

Kersplash! The drake has an unconscious PC 5-10 feet below the water all before anyone even got to go.


Is that its tactics as written, and if not, do you think those tactics will make your players enjoy the battle more?
Or, perhaps, less?

Also, I would hope the party isn't bunched up before closing for battle.
You could have the drake shoot at a guy with a ranged weapon then pounce on somebody else perhaps closer.

Cheers.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Nope. That is pretty much *exactly* the tactics as written.

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

I would disagree.

The tactics state that the river drake flings the snake on to the deck - sounds more like a standard action to me, not a free action.

I also wouldn't think that the drake would use two of it's three speed surges in a single fight like that. I would think that the drake would keep them in reserve, in case it needs to get away. It has hunted boats before and fought other creatures, so it should know that there may be mages or other powerful creatures around that it would need to run from.

Please note that according to the CORE, p 178, surprise round, creatures can only take a move action or a standard action, and free actions. You cannot take swift actions - so no speed surge in the surprise round.

Also, the GM decides where the drake appears along the boat - and the tactics says that it attacks the nearest PC - so the GM could have the drake attack the unarmored mage, or the armored fighter. You also have to remember that the drake doesn't know what is on the ship, nor where all the living creatures on at are - it was underwater.

So, the way I read the tactics, and have used as well, is:
Surprise round: Drake pops up alongside the ship (one option is to randomly roll where).
1st round: Drake flings the snake onto the deck of the ship, likely towards a group that is not the nearest PC, and moves next to the nearest PC, if not already next to the PC.
2nd round: full attack the PC. Repeat if necessary.
round after PC dropped: spit at anyone getting around the snake (likely to be the melee folks who can take a hit), pick up the downed PC.
next round: full withdraw with it's meal.

That sequence appears to be more in line with the tactics, will provide a challenge to the PCs, and will not provide an instant kill to a 1st or 2nd level character.

Silver Crusade

My main argument against this is that the concern for something being "over-powered" is with consideration to new players. The different in system mastery between someone that has been playing for a month or two and someone that has been playing for a year or more is pretty significant. A more veteran group of players is going ot tactic the crap out of the encounter and handle it well.

When designing an encounter one must consider not only the new player you are trying to get hooked but the vet player you are trying to keep interested.

There are reasons I dislike playing season 0, 1, and 2 scenarios....as a player I am left wondering "where was the challenge?"


Mistwalker wrote:


Please note that according to the CORE, p 178, surprise round, creatures can only take a move action or a standard action, and free actions. You cannot take swift actions - so no speed surge in the surprise round.

That is incorrect. The PRD states this:

Quote:

Swift Actions

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.

In addition, one can perform an Immediate action even when it's not your turn, so that can absolutely happen during the surprise round for a character acting in that round.

I don't always do it, but it's really important to get in the habit of verifying rules before trying to make definitive statements about them.

Sovereign Court

Mistwalker wrote:

I would disagree.

The tactics state that the river drake flings the snake on to the deck - sounds more like a standard action to me, not a free action.

I also wouldn't think that the drake would use two of it's three speed surges in a single fight like that. I would think that the drake would keep them in reserve, in case it needs to get away. It has hunted boats before and fought other creatures, so it should know that there may be mages or other powerful creatures around that it would need to run from.

Please note that according to the CORE, p 178, surprise round, creatures can only take a move action or a standard action, and free actions. You cannot take swift actions - so no speed surge in the surprise round.

Also, the GM decides where the drake appears along the boat - and the tactics says that it attacks the nearest PC - so the GM could have the drake attack the unarmored mage, or the armored fighter. You also have to remember that the drake doesn't know what is on the ship, nor where all the living creatures on at are - it was underwater.

So, the way I read the tactics, and have used as well, is:
Surprise round: Drake pops up alongside the ship (one option is to randomly roll where).
1st round: Drake flings the snake onto the deck of the ship, likely towards a group that is not the nearest PC, and moves next to the nearest PC, if not already next to the PC.
2nd round: full attack the PC. Repeat if necessary.
round after PC dropped: spit at anyone getting around the snake (likely to be the melee folks who can take a hit), pick up the downed PC.
next round: full withdraw with it's meal.

That sequence appears to be more in line with the tactics, will provide a challenge to the PCs, and will not provide an instant kill to a 1st or 2nd level character.

I will think about the snake action. It really doesn't define it so I would say it's up to me whether it is simply dropped or thrown. I do see the argument for it taking an action.

The second surge would be used to drag a PC/food overboard with the first used as part of the ambush. I think those are appropriate uses of the surge. The third would be held in reserve for escape.

There are no penalties to perception for looking out of water, despite what may happen in the real world. The Drake is also practiced at stalking prey and is quite intelligent. I see no reason why the drake couldn't pace the ship as the trudges upriver, picking out the easiest target.

As I reflect, even if combat turns out the way I detailed it before, I am not sure that 2d6 and 1d3 damage is even going to drop a wizard if I roll poorly. We will see.

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

N N 959 wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:


Please note that according to the CORE, p 178, surprise round, creatures can only take a move action or a standard action, and free actions. You cannot take swift actions - so no speed surge in the surprise round.

That is incorrect. The PRD states this:

Quote:

Swift Actions

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.

In addition, one can perform an Immediate action even when it's not your turn, so that can absolutely happen during the surprise round for a character acting in that round.

I don't always do it, but it's really important to get in the habit of verifying rules before trying to make definitive statements about them.

I do, and did this time as well.

Both the PRD and page 182 of the CORE state wrote:
Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.
CORE p182 and PRD: Free actions wrote:
Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

I highlighted what I consider an important fact about free actions.

However, based on your comments, I did a bit more research and found:

CORE p182 and PRD: Restricted Activity wrote:
In some situations, you may be unable to take a full round's worth of actions. In such cases, you are restricted to taking only a single standard action or a single move action (plus free and swift actions as normal). You can't take a full-round action (though you can start or complete a full-round action by using a standard action; see below).

I will now happily apply swift actions to the surprise round, both as GM and player.

Out of curiosity, where did your quote of the PRD come from? Mine are from the "How combat works" page.


While a GM has discretion on what may be a Free action. Its important to point out that the GM does not have discretion to disallow what is by RAW a Swift action from occurring where a Free action could occur.

I found the definition using the Search box on the PRD website.

Swift Action

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

RtrnofdMax wrote:

I will think about the snake action. It really doesn't define it so I would say it's up to me whether it is simply dropped or thrown. I do see the argument for it taking an action.

The second surge would be used to drag a PC/food overboard with the first used as part of the ambush. I think those are appropriate uses of the surge. The third would be held in reserve for escape.

There are no penalties to perception for looking out of water, despite what may happen in the real world. The Drake is also practiced at stalking prey and is quite intelligent. I see no reason why the drake couldn't pace the ship as the trudges upriver, picking out the easiest target.

As I reflect, even if combat turns out the way I detailed it before, I am not sure that 2d6 and 1d3 damage is even going to drop a wizard if I roll poorly. We will see.

While you are contemplating the snake, think that the drake has to carry it in it's mouth. So, it will likely be holding it in such a way that the snake cannot bite it (and inject it with poison). If the drake just opens it's jaws to free action drop the snake, what are the chances that the snake will bite the drake? Bite a creature that snatched it and carried it off? Or would the drake want to make sure that it put enough force into spitting out the snake to have it be flung away fast enough so that it can't get a poisoned bite attack in, and land in a square that will make it more challenging for the other PCs to come to the rescue of the drake's chosen PC?

I wasn't suggesting that the drake wouldn't pace the ship for a bit (gives the PCs more chances for perception checks), but this isn't a small boat, the deck is well above the water.

The ship is 75' long, with multiple cabins below deck and cargo space, and is 15' wide. I would put the deck 5' above the water for game movement purposes, and 10' for the fore and quarter decks.

The same perception modifiers should apply to both the drake and the PCs on deck. The drake shouldn't get a +8 cover bonus if it is watching the ship - swimming from it's lair and surging up from underneath, sure, but not if it is casing the ship. And it shouldn't be able to see the center part of the deck, due to the high difference.

As for damage, there is a good chance that you will be taking down a 1st level spellcaster with just the two attacks, never mind the additional 2d6 damage from the spit, which would take down most fighters as well.

It can feel like GM fiat killed the character, as they had no chance of seeing it, will not likely be able to move before the drake in the regular round (drake has an init of +9), so will take 13 points of damage on average (2d6 spit, 1d3+1 tail and an additional 1d4 acid) before they can move, and likely also entangled in the caustic mucus (and will continue taking an additional 1d4 damage per round until they make their save or die).

That has a good chance of being perceived as GM fiat - the GM pointed their finger at a PC (who hadn't done anything wrong) and says you take 13 points of damage, does that kill you? No, well the drake grabs you with its jaws and drags you underwater, start making your drowning checks along with those acid saves.

Yes, you can definitely run things that way.

Does it make the game more enjoyable for the players? Will new players want to come back if that is their character that died? Will it cause players to start doing ridiculous things to protect themselves?

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

N N 959 wrote:

While a GM has discretion on what may be a Free action. Its important to point out that the GM does not have discretion to disallow what is by RAW a Swift action from occurring where a Free action could occur.

I found the definition using the Search box on the PRD website.

Swift Action

Swift actions take a bit more time than free actions. And your quoted text from the PRD says that if a free action could take place, then a swift action could. However, if the GM states that that free action cannot occur, then neither can the swift action. So, by my reading, by RAW, a GM can say that a swift action cannot be taken.

I find it amusing that were are arguing/discussing the rules about a monster's actions, giving it more power/ability/etc.. in the same manner that the discussions usually happen about PCs.


The GM can't single out Swift actions as separate from Free actions. If the latter is allowed, so is the former. So the GM has no discretion over Swift actions, only Free actions. If the rules say you can perform a Free action, then, per RAW, the GM cannot prevent a Swift action from occurring, barring something unique.

Well, we both know there are GMs out there who have tried to stop players from taking Swift actions when Free actions were allowed.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I thought you couldn't take immediate actions if flat footed?


PRD wrote:
You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

I said an immediate action can be used in the Surprise Round. If you can act during the Surprise Round, then when it's your turn, you can use an immediate action.

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

N N 959 wrote:
PRD wrote:
You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

I said an immediate action can be used in the Surprise Round. If you can act during the Surprise Round, then when it's your turn, you can use an immediate action.

and

The GM can't single out Swift actions as separate from Free actions. If the latter is allowed, so is the former. So the GM has no discretion over Swift actions, only Free actions. If the rules say you can perform a Free action, then, per RAW, the GM cannot prevent a Swift action from occurring, barring something unique.

Well, we both know there are GMs out there who have tried to stop players from taking Swift actions when Free actions were allowed.

Immediate actions can happen out of initiative sequence.

I would argue that some can happen any time, including not acting in surprise round - example: feather fall (the spell would be pretty useless if you couldn't use it instantly).

If a GM can say that certain free actions cannot happen that turn, then the GM can also say that certain swift and immediate actions cannot happen - swift actions take more time that a free action, according to the Core, so if free actions can be limited by the GM, it logically follows that the GM can limit swift actions (Yes, the GM needs a rationale to do so).

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

Matthew Morris wrote:
I thought you couldn't take immediate actions if flat footed?

I can find nothing to indicate that.

The Core, page 178, flat-footed doesn't mention that, nor does page 182, immediate action.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Mistwalker wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
I thought you couldn't take immediate actions if flat footed?

I can find nothing to indicate that.

The Core, page 178, flat-footed doesn't mention that, nor does page 182, immediate action.

The rules for immediate actions are laid out on 189, not 182 (that's the general description of what they are, not their rules).

Core Rulebook, Page 189 wrote:
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

Interesting.

Could make things interesting for a few immediate action spells.

Feather Fall is supposed to allow you to cast it as soon as you start to fall - so if it is a trap, or a bridge/ledge suddenly collapsing, technically, you haven't acted yet so are flat-footed, so you can't cast Feather Fall, which would seem to defeat the major goal of the spell.

Feather Fall is even mentioned on page 189, so it looks like you can't even use the specific rule over general rule argument.

I will have to do a bit of research on this, and if no one has asked for a FAQ, start a thread to do so.

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