Crane Wing Errata in latest printing


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Well, only if the PC is human.


Kudaku wrote:

I think you misunderstood my post, Aelryinth.

Basically you take the 1/round melee attack deflection from old crane wing and bake it into the new Crane Riposte. It would read something like this:

Crane Riposte (Combat) You use your defensive abilities to make overpowering counterattacks.
Prerequisites: Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8 or monk level 7th. Benefit: You take only a –1 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively.

You can now use the Fighting Defensively as well as the Total Defense action to deflect one melee attack that would normally hit you. An attack roll of 20 cannot be deflected.

Reword it so it requires crane wing to work and you even close the MoMS loophole.


Throne wrote:
I'm not sure how it fixes the 2 level MoMS dip, when you can get all 3 feats with a 2 level MoMS dip?

Hm... Fair point, though it would still come online at level 3 instead of 2.

You'd need IUS, Dodge, Crane Style, Crane Wing, and Crane Riposte.

MoMS allows you to pick up style feats when you already have the first style feat. Crane Style requires BAB 2 or monk 1 (but you can't dip plain monk without losing the MoMS dip), IUS, and Dodge.

So Crane Style would come online at level 3 (2 if you retrain a feat or is a fighter), then two levels of MoMS would let you pick up Crane Wing and Crane Riposte at level 5 at the earliest, or level 4 if you retrained.

If you don't take the MoMS route then the Crane Deflection would come online at level 7 (for other monk archetypes) or level 8 (for non-monks). Either way the early game shouldn't be effected by Crane Wing users, and the Natural 20 stipulation means that it never actually guarantees you protection from melee attacks - there's still a risk involved. Additionally it's now actually not very good for a defensive build since the defensive build (if the player knows what he's doing) will already only be hit on natural 20.


Marthkus wrote:
Reword it so it requires crane wing to work and you even close the MoMS loophole.

Good point! I'm not particularly good at homebrewing feats but if you phrase it so that it ADDS an option to Deflecting instead of actually allowing you to deflect on its own... Hm. I'll see if I can reword it.

Edit: There! The wording is a little tilted but it gets the idea across, I think. Link to the post can be found here since we just rolled over to a new page.


Throne wrote:
I'm not sure how it fixes the 2 level MoMS dip, when you can get all 3 feats with a 2 level MoMS dip?

How can you get all 3 with a single 2 level dip? You only bypass the reqs with your bonus feats... And you only get 2 of em. Unless you started unarmed fighter, whom also ignores style feat reqs but only for the first one, I don't know how you'd get it off.


Darth Grall wrote:
Throne wrote:
I'm not sure how it fixes the 2 level MoMS dip, when you can get all 3 feats with a 2 level MoMS dip?
How can you get all 3 with a single level dip? You only bypass the reqs with your bonus feats... And you only get 2 of em.

Level 1: Monk (MoMS archetype) - Regular level 1 feat = Dodge, Human Bonus Feat = Crane Style (prereqs are dodge, which you just got, Improved Unarmed Strike which you get from being a Monk, and 1st level Monk, which you also get from being a Monk). Monk Bonus Feat = Crane Wing

Level 2: Monk - Monk Bonus Feat = Crane Riposte
Level 3: Fighter, Rogue, Magus... whatever you like.

Crane Riposte has always required Crane Wing for the counter attack, so the only MoMS loophole is the early access, it's not like Snake where you use the MoMS benefit to skip the middle of the tree.


Marthkus wrote:
Kudaku wrote:

I think you misunderstood my post, Aelryinth.

Basically you take the 1/round melee attack deflection from old crane wing and bake it into the new Crane Riposte. It would read something like this:

Crane Riposte (Combat) You use your defensive abilities to make overpowering counterattacks.
Prerequisites: Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8 or monk level 7th. Benefit: You take only a –1 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively.

You can now use the Fighting Defensively as well as the Total Defense action to deflect one melee attack that would normally hit you. An attack roll of 20 cannot be deflected.

Reword it so it requires crane wing to work and you even close the MoMS loophole.

Wow. That works AMAZINGLY well.

Paizo! If you're paying attention right now, this! ^^^^^


Cerberus Seven wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Kudaku wrote:

I think you misunderstood my post, Aelryinth.

Basically you take the 1/round melee attack deflection from old crane wing and bake it into the new Crane Riposte. It would read something like this:

Crane Riposte (Combat) You use your defensive abilities to make overpowering counterattacks.
Prerequisites: Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8 or monk level 7th. Benefit: You take only a –1 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively.

You can now use the Fighting Defensively as well as the Total Defense action to deflect one melee attack that would normally hit you. An attack roll of 20 cannot be deflected.

Reword it so it requires crane wing to work and you even close the MoMS loophole.

Wow. That works AMAZINGLY well.

Paizo! If you're paying attention right now, this! ^^^^^

I agree, but that's just because this puts Crane Style back where it was pre-nerf, besides now being vulnerable to natural 20s (a nerf it doesn't even need, but it's better than the one they gave it).

(Unless you're removing the counterattack completely?)


The thing this nerf did for me was it alerted me that I was reading Crane Style wrong the entire time.

I had been assuming the crane block is made before the attack the whole time (same with deflect arrows)! For what it's worth, this aspect of the feat powers it down a ton. Those mook attacks were way more likely to hit under my misreading. The monk still automatically evaded one melee attack per round, and against certain enemies the power was insanely good.
I'm not going to go with this new errata. I'm not changing it to the original rule either. My misreading strikes me as fair and even thematic. The idea of the monk soundly defeating the brute with the heavy fist (and not the faster fist) is a classic image.
BUT! I admit I've never seen this feat on someone who was abusing the MoMS dip to gain access to it. It's probably way stronger there.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I'll say it again...

My main problem with the errata is not that it's an unnecessary nerf to underpowered classes, but that it is yet another unnecessary nerf to underpowered classes.

Very few feats are actually useful, and even less of them are anything other than a numerical bonus. Crane Wing was both, and now, it's neither.

This kind of ruling greatly reduces character variety. More and more players are forced into 2-handed weapons or archery because everything else is so much inferior, and erratas like this come around and make it even more so.

For once, I'd to see an errata give us options, instead of taking them away. Real options mind you, not unnecessary choices that no one takes and are only considered "option" in the shallowest interpretation of the word.

If there are 500 options, but 490 are garbage, then we have only 10 options, not 500.

This "martials should always be limited to full attacks" design philosophy is infuriating! It's highly detrimental to game balance, character variety and player fun.

If any designer cares to listen, I beg you. Give martial characters more options. Not numbers, not false choices, not filler material.Real options. Give us feats that allow us to do cool and unique stuff in the battlefield. Something that encourages players to try something... anything other than spam full attacks every round of every fight of every campaign.

And by all gods! Don't hide these options behind a wall of insane prerequisites!

Oh, and if you want to use erratas to make the game more balanced, start by buffing martial classes instead of nerfing them!


Kudaku wrote:
MoMS allows you to pick up style feats when you already have the first style feat. Crane Style requires requires BAB 2 or monk 1 (but you can't dip plain monk without losing the MoMS dip), IUS, and Dodge.

Uhh... you do get that Master of Many Styles is still a Monk, right?

So you don't need to dip plain Monk, because Level 1 MoMS = Level 1 Monk.


Throne wrote:
I agree, but that's just because this puts Crane Style back where it was pre-nerf, besides now being vulnerable to natural 20s (a nerf it doesn't even need, but it's better than the one they gave it).

Not quite - the full effect now requires all three feats and is overall a bit less powerful (the AoO is gone from Crane Riposte), though as near as I can tell you're correct that the MoMS shortcut is still available if you're willing to play human - though now at level 2 instead of 1.

Hm...

I don't really see how to do this well without adding a stipulation to the MoMS :(.

I guess you could add something about MoMS starting off only being able to take basic style feats, then learning tier 2 style feats at level 3 and tier 3 style feats at level 5?


Throne wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
MoMS allows you to pick up style feats when you already have the first style feat. Crane Style requires requires BAB 2 or monk 1 (but you can't dip plain monk without losing the MoMS dip), IUS, and Dodge.

Uhh... you do get that Master of Many Styles is still a Monk, right?

So you don't need to dip plain Monk, because Level 1 MoMS = Level 1 Monk.

I'm well aware, I thought it was obvious I meant dipping two different archetypes of monk.


Kudaku wrote:


I don't really see how to do this well without adding a stipulation to the MoMS :(.

I guess you could add something about MoMS starting off only being able to take basic style feats, then learning tier 2 style feats at level 3 and tier 3 style feats at level 5?

Crane Style (Combat, Style)

Prerequisites: Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Acrobatics 3 ranks.

Done.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

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Hey there everybody,

We have just posted up an errata to Crane Riposte. You can find it HERE.

While this does not, I am sure, fix the problem with Crane Wing that many of you are having, it does bring Crane Riposte in line with the changes. Nor does this mean that we consider this a closed issue. Its just a bit of progress.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

[[Link should work now.. that last one was bogus, all better.. I think]]


Throne wrote:

Crane Style (Combat, Style)

Prerequisites: Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Acrobatics 3 ranks.

Done.

That would work well, and the three ranks of acrobatics is an investment already made for just about anyone who's using Crane Style. Not a bad fix :)


Kudaku wrote:
Throne wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
MoMS allows you to pick up style feats when you already have the first style feat. Crane Style requires requires BAB 2 or monk 1 (but you can't dip plain monk without losing the MoMS dip), IUS, and Dodge.

Uhh... you do get that Master of Many Styles is still a Monk, right?

So you don't need to dip plain Monk, because Level 1 MoMS = Level 1 Monk.
I'm well aware, I thought it was obvious I meant dipping two different archetypes of monk.

Was just checking. You were confusing me, since (ignoring the errata, as I plan on doing), it's entirely possible to get Crane Riposte online at level 2. You just need to be a Human, which is hardly a hardship.


Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

Hey there folks,

We have just posted up an errata to Crane Riposte. You can find it HERE.

While this does not, I am sure, fix the problem with Crane Wing that many of you are having, it does bring Crane Riposte in line with the changes. Nor does this mean that we consider this a closed issue. Its just a bit of progress.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

It is now directly inferior to other feat choices(even defensive ones) now that we know that feats break the general rule of Total Defense preventing AoOs.

For everyone's viewing pleasure.

Crane Riposte FAQ wrote:

Crane Riposte: With the changes made to Crane Wing, how does Crane Riposte work?

While the feat still reduced your penalty when fighting defensively, there is a change to the text the follows.

Update: Page 93, in the Crane Riposte feat, in the benefits paragraph, change the second sentence to read as follows: Whenever you are fighting defensively, and you use Crane Wing to add a dodge bonus against one attack, that attack provokes an attack of opportunity from you if it misses. In addition, when you deflect an attack using Crane Wing while taking the total defense action, you may make an attack of opportunity against that opponent (even though you could not normally do so while taking the total defense action).

—Pathfinder Design Team, today

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Sorry folks.. I screwed up the link. Should be fixed now. Cleaned up some posts referencing the old link.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


Kudaku wrote:
Throne wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
MoMS allows you to pick up style feats when you already have the first style feat. Crane Style requires requires BAB 2 or monk 1 (but you can't dip plain monk without losing the MoMS dip), IUS, and Dodge.

Uhh... you do get that Master of Many Styles is still a Monk, right?

So you don't need to dip plain Monk, because Level 1 MoMS = Level 1 Monk.
I'm well aware, I thought it was obvious I meant dipping two different archetypes of monk.

I'm not sure why you think it would be obvious that you are referring to something that can't be done.

What are you even trying to say?

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there everybody,

We have just posted up an errata to Crane Riposte. You can find it HERE.

While this does not, I am sure, fix the problem with Crane Wing that many of you are having, it does bring Crane Riposte in line with the changes. Nor does this mean that we consider this a closed issue. Its just a bit of progress.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

HMMMMMMMMM

Edit: Better. Link and Feat. But still not terribly good.

TBH if you're going to allow Crane Riposte on any miss, it might be better to just change Crane Wing entirely, into something less crappy.

Perhaps something that makes Total Defense a more palatabale option.


Well, so much for that hope - I need to go redesign some character concepts.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there everybody,

We have just posted up an errata to Crane Riposte. You can find it HERE.

While this does not, I am sure, fix the problem with Crane Wing that many of you are having, it does bring Crane Riposte in line with the changes.

It's better, but why wouldn't I just get the 1st level spell shield up and use snake fang instead?

(...or mirror image and snake fang for that matter?)

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Scavion wrote:


It is now directly inferior to other feat choices(even defensive ones) now that we know that feats break the general rule of Total Defense preventing AoOs.

Feats can break that rule only if they directly refer to Total Defense. They would not, for example let you break the stun rule (preventing AoOs) unless they specifically called that out as well.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


Rynjin wrote:

I'm not sure why you think it would be obvious that you are referring to something that can't be done.

What are you even trying to say?

I was referring to exactly that actually - that you can't dip two different monk archetypes in a single build. Feel free to read the original post.

And while it might just be that English is not my primary language, I think that your second sentence is both rude and uncalled for.

Liberty's Edge

Still sticking with the original. The revised one is stioo not worth taking imo.


Yeeeaaaah, if that could just be used after the attack roll is made, that'd be greeeeaaaat.


Kudaku wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I'm not sure why you think it would be obvious that you are referring to something that can't be done.

What are you even trying to say?

I was referring to exactly that actually - that you can't dip two different monk archetypes in a single build. Feel free to read the original post.

And while it might just be that English is not my primary language, I think that your second sentence is both rude and uncalled for.

It wasn't intended to be, I'm just trying to figure out what you're trying to say, what the relevance is to anything going on.

This:

Quote:
MoMS allows you to pick up style feats when you already have the first style feat. Crane Style requires requires BAB 2 or monk 1 (but you can't dip plain monk without losing the MoMS dip), IUS, and Dodge.

Combined with this:

Quote:
I thought it was obvious I meant dipping two different archetypes of monk.

Doesn't make much sense. As in, I don't see how they relate at all in any sort of context.

Mind rephrasing for me? Especially what you were trying to say with that first bit?


With that Change to Crane Riposte, CW is pretty close to the happy medium, IMO, though I still say that a better option would be something similar to "After the roll is made, but before the result is announced" but the opposite, though I understand that that would cause issues, because it would require games to go from:

GM: I attack you. *rolls* Does 29 beat your AC
MONK: Yeah, that's a hit

to

GM: I attack you *rolls* What is your AC?
MONK: 27
GM: OK, that's a hit. Do you want to Crane Wing it?
MONK: Hm... Well, he just missed the rogue, which means he couldn't have a super-high bonus, which means, sure, I'll use it.
GM: OK, it misses, you may riposte
MONK *Rolls* Does 23 hit?
GM: That's a miss.

And even one slip up could mess the change up. I'm still definatively closer to the side of the fence, to say that a +4 declared reactively is better balanced than a +4 declared proactively, though


The Crane Chain is pretty inferior to Snake Style and Fang now.

Part of it is that Total Defense is such a worthless action.


Throne wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there everybody,

We have just posted up an errata to Crane Riposte. You can find it HERE.

While this does not, I am sure, fix the problem with Crane Wing that many of you are having, it does bring Crane Riposte in line with the changes. Nor does this mean that we consider this a closed issue. Its just a bit of progress.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

[[Link should work now.. that last one was bogus, all better.. I think]]

Yes, it's still junk. So you were being honest at least that it does bring Crane Riposte in line with the changes.

I'm sure it'll appease the people who were so beat down by the nerf that they'll take any bone you care to throw them, though (the ones already onto the bargaining stage. I'm still on stage 2, personally).
Unless you make it 'any attack that misses while you're fighting defensively provokes an Attack of Opportunity' then it's still inferior to Snake Fang for a greater investment.
So I guess we should expect to see a nerf there soon too, eh?

Silly martials, nice things are for casters.

It's actually better than Fang for those who don't use unarmed strikes (and let's be fair, the intermediate feat in the Snake chain is pretty useless anyway, since it eats your immediate and prevents the other Snakes).

In fact, this newest version is often offensively more powerful than the original pre-errata Crane Riposte, since it now allows a Riposte even if every enemy misses you (whereas before, if that happened, which was fairly common for me thanks to Crane's +4 to AC, I didn't get a riposte that round which lowered my damage).


Instead of nullifying an attack, we could just make Crane Wingd add +4 Dodge AC and 1/2 damage the attack if it hits.

See, now it still provides a benefit (possibly missing, but even if hits you take less damage).


Rogue Eidolon wrote:

It's actually better than Fang for those who don't use unarmed strikes (and let's be fair, the intermediate feat in the Snake chain is pretty useless anyway, since it eats your immediate and prevents the other Snakes).

In fact, this newest version is often offensively more powerful than the original pre-errata Crane Riposte, since it now allows a Riposte even if every enemy misses you (whereas before, if that happened, which was fairly common for me thanks to Crane's +4 to AC, I didn't get a riposte that round which lowered my damage).

The most "overpowered" use of Crane Wing was by folks who used the dip from MoMS. This meant they have an unarmed strike of 1d6 anyways. Then you remember that MoMS lets you ignore steps in a chain so you can get Snake Style and Fang right at level 2.

Now Snake Style is better offensively and Defensively.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:


It's actually better than Fang for those who don't use unarmed strikes (and let's be fair, the intermediate feat in the Snake chain is pretty useless anyway, since it eats your immediate and prevents the other Snakes).

In fact, this newest version is often offensively more powerful than the original pre-errata Crane Riposte, since it now allows a Riposte even if every enemy misses you (whereas before, if that happened, which was fairly common for me thanks to Crane's +4 to AC, I didn't get a riposte that round which lowered my damage).

Except for the part where Snake Fang isn't limited to one per round and doesn't require a free hand.

You can sword+board, two-weapon, or two-handed with snake fang and take your AoOs as knees and headbutts if you like. Hell, call it Marshall Law style flipkicks if you want to be really snazzy.

Silver Crusade

Snake Style is going to be less of a headache in play at the very least.

No matter what one may have thought of the original Crane Wing, it was simple and fast. For a class as complicated as the monk, that alone added a lot of appeal.


Scavion wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:

It's actually better than Fang for those who don't use unarmed strikes (and let's be fair, the intermediate feat in the Snake chain is pretty useless anyway, since it eats your immediate and prevents the other Snakes).

In fact, this newest version is often offensively more powerful than the original pre-errata Crane Riposte, since it now allows a Riposte even if every enemy misses you (whereas before, if that happened, which was fairly common for me thanks to Crane's +4 to AC, I didn't get a riposte that round which lowered my damage).

The most "overpowered" use of Crane Wing was by folks who used the dip from MoMS. This meant they have an unarmed strike of 1d6 anyways. Then you remember that MoMS lets you ignore steps in a chain so you can get Snake Style and Fang right at level 2.

Now Snake Style is better offensively and Defensively.

Snake Style was ALWAYS better both offensively and defensively.

Snake Style 5 lyfe.


Throne wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:


It's actually better than Fang for those who don't use unarmed strikes (and let's be fair, the intermediate feat in the Snake chain is pretty useless anyway, since it eats your immediate and prevents the other Snakes).

In fact, this newest version is often offensively more powerful than the original pre-errata Crane Riposte, since it now allows a Riposte even if every enemy misses you (whereas before, if that happened, which was fairly common for me thanks to Crane's +4 to AC, I didn't get a riposte that round which lowered my damage).

Except for the part where Snake Fang isn't limited to one per round and doesn't require a free hand.

You can sword+board, two-weapon, or two-handed with snake fang and take your AoOs as knees and headbutts if you like.

Those headbutt AoOs probably aren't too great though if you primarily are a weapon-user (I know my Aldori Swordlord's Snake Fangs leave much to be desired compared to her Crane Ripostes, but she does get a barrel more of the Fangs). Also, I believe (but am not 100% sure), that only monks can make unarmed strikes with any part of their body, so it does mean that you need monk levels if you want to keep full hands.


Actually this leads to an interesting question... does a hit (And or a miss) on a mirror image figment count as a miss for the purposes of invoking an AoO from Snake fang? (2 lvl dip into ninja is suddenly looking interesting for my monk.)


Rynjin wrote:
Mind rephrasing for me? Especially what you were trying to say with that first bit?

Let's see...

In order to take the full chain of feats allowing you to deflect an attack in the edited and homebrewed version I posted earlier, you needed the following feats: IUs, Dodge, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte. Previously many would ignore Crane Riposte since they wanted to get Crane online early for the defensive benefit and didn't particularly care about an AoO.
In the post I was outlining how the advantage of the MoMS dip would be affected by this change.

A two-level dip in MoMS allows you to pick up two style feats early, clearly in this case you want Crane Wing and Crane Riposte. However one of the requirements of Crane Style is Monk 1 or BaB 2. The point with the sentence you quoted was that since you can't take levels in two different archetypes of Monk in the same build, and you wanted to save the MoMS dips for when you already had Crane Style in place (allowing you to pick up Crane Wing and Crane Riposte with the first two bonus feats from MoMS), you needed Crane Style to already be in the build before MoMS entered. The BAB requirement would therefore be a firm limiter on how early (level 2) Crane Style could be picked up , since you couldn't dip monk to sidestep it. This would mean that MoMS could enter at level 3 at the earliest. The change I suggested seemed to delay the early onset Crane problem to level 4 or 5 since the fastest build would then be something like:

Fighter 1: Dodge, IUS
Fighter 2: Crane Style
MoMS 3: Crane Wing (MoMS bonus feat)
MoMS 4: Crane Riposte (MoMS bonus feat)
or
Ranger 1: Dodge
Ranger 2: No feat available
Ranger 3: Crane Style
MoMS 4: Crane Wing (MoMS bonus feat)
MoMS 5: Crane Riposte (MoMS bonus feat)

My mistake was not considering how the human bonus feat would leapfrog the changes I had implemented - Like Throne pointed out, a human MoMS monk could do the following:
MoMS 1: Dodge (basic feat), IUS (monk bonus feat), Crane Style (human bonus feat), Crane Wing (MoMS bonus feat)
MoMS 2: Crane Riposte (MoMS bonus feat)

A better fix would probably be something along the lines of what Throne suggested, by adding a skill requirement to Crane style - much like what I believe Snake Style already has in place.


Scavion wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:

It's actually better than Fang for those who don't use unarmed strikes (and let's be fair, the intermediate feat in the Snake chain is pretty useless anyway, since it eats your immediate and prevents the other Snakes).

In fact, this newest version is often offensively more powerful than the original pre-errata Crane Riposte, since it now allows a Riposte even if every enemy misses you (whereas before, if that happened, which was fairly common for me thanks to Crane's +4 to AC, I didn't get a riposte that round which lowered my damage).

The most "overpowered" use of Crane Wing was by folks who used the dip from MoMS. This meant they have an unarmed strike of 1d6 anyways. Then you remember that MoMS lets you ignore steps in a chain so you can get Snake Style and Fang right at level 2.

Now Snake Style is better offensively and Defensively.

Defensively, I'm not certain. It depends on what your AC is compared to your Sense Motive modifier. Since you have to declare Snake Style and Crane Wing both before the attack roll is made, if your AC with the +4 on top of fighting defensively is better than what you would usually get from a Sense Motive check (this is true for all Snake/Crane characters I have ever built, and it was even true for my max-Wis max-Sense Motive Zen Archer so much so that I didn't take the feat with her, but I could certainly imagine a build for which it isn't true), then Snake Style is less helpful than Crane Wing.


Petrus222 wrote:
Actually this leads to an interesting question... does a hit (And or a miss) on a mirror image figment count as a miss for the purposes of invoking an AoO from Snake fang? (2 lvl dip into ninja is suddenly looking interesting for my monk.)

I have been expecting that a miss by less than 5 that pops an image does trigger Fang but a hit that randomly hits an image doesn't, but I haven't run into it yet. I could see the other ruling as legit too.

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