Goblinworks Blog: Beyond this Hill It Floods Rays of Hope


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

I count about ~50 (1k and up) on the kickstarter. GW already has it's own team and Paizo. So that's about another what 20-30?

I agree with Nihimon: Very special dibs for the awesome people backing at those levels. I'm very appreciative of their capacity and support.

A solution for maybe some load-testing is restricted alpha testing for load-testing later on in alpha eg a w/e or whatever it takes? Could be a just solution. But hopefully the above numbers are enough for GW. Although if they open up a fulfillment/pledge tool with circa 1k+ then it could be a method for extras if they need the numbers and some want the opportunity?

I'm more than content to wait for Beta as the alpha testers and testing will all be good feedback anyway and the game is speeded up 1 year in dev which is such a massive boon anyway. Just wish I could have got that "Monster Cast" - "Rosebud!"

Goblin Squad Member

AvenaOats wrote:
I count about ~50 (1k and up) on the kickstarter. GW already has it's own team and Paizo. So that's about another what 20-30?

Don't forget the folks who got Alpha access from the Tech Demo Kickstarter.

Goblin Squad Member

My impression was that the 1000+ bucks dudes are guaranteed to have Alpha access and the remaining spots ( provided the amount of alpha spots is greater then the amount of alpha backers ) will go out via a lottery to the goblin squad members.

But it's also possible that i'm confusing it with the way GW wants to deal with EE spots.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Frankly, I think I'd be a little put out if folks are getting into Alpha without forking over $1,000 or more...

Remember the main selling point of the $300 Brew Master was a guaranteed beta slot, which was extended to all KS'ers once the amount went over $1 million.

I was glad to be able to switch out of Brew Master, add another $100 and go with the Pledge + Add-Ons I finalized with.

Goblin Squad Member

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All the Kickstarter said was

Quote:
You will be welcomed as part of a very small group of alpha playtesters in a closed Alpha of Pathfinder Online. This will be a great chance for you to give us direct input on how Pathfinder Online ends up looking and playing in its final incarnation. Once we hit the Beta, you will be invited to play from the first month onward.

That is guaranteed access to closed alpha, which I never read as exclusive access. If GW wanted even more alpha testers than that in an ongoing or temporary basis they know where to find us them.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I never RSW anything implying exclusive alpha access. I would be disappointed if there was a cattle call and everybody who wanted to be an alpha tester got to become one, but that would mostly be because the response to the cattle call would have to be abysmal for that to happen.

Hand picked participants from any source, or allowing existing testers to invite additional ones would be the methods I would suggest and prefer, if guaranteed slots aren't enough.

Goblin Squad Member

Let's get to the point where we are testing, test, and see how it goes. If we don't do a good job bring in others as needed. I put money on it to end with a good game. That remains my priority. If GW needs more folks logged in then they should invite whoever they think can get the job done. That's what my contribution was for and I'll not allow my ego to bump their elbow. Not if I can help it anyway.

Goblin Squad Member

Remember Alpha testing is for systems and features and they can do that on their own. The only time a game company ever really needs "testers" is for server load.

I wonder if Goblinworks will ask alpha to sign a NDA agreement?

It would be nice if they didn't so the alphas could share their experiences with the community..

Goblin Squad Member

Based on how open GW has been about the whole process, I would be surprised if they asked for an NDA. Still, stranger has happened.

Goblin Squad Member

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Honestly i wouldnt be surprised to see an NDA, only because they dont want things like "man i played and it was buggy as heck" getting out even though most people know it is in alpha but a lot of people wont bother looking that up.

Goblin Squad Member

They're already testing internally. Alpha is to locate floaters and bugs internal missed or hasn't gotten to. I've never seen a serious load testing routine in any alpha or closed beta. Only in open betas.

Goblin Squad Member

Being the dream-killer.

Goblin Squad Member

There are (~?)56 Alpha (above $1000) level KS backers. If they wanted to test at load, they could draft from both active community and the higher beta blocks.

I backed at Beta Access, and I have no idea where I was in the backing order (or if they even have a backing order), but I think it would be cool if they split any additional Alpha slots up between interested active community members and beta level backers (at higher backing level) — this is all assuming they wanted to test with more than staff, Alpha Access backers and anyone else that they already recruited.

With previous beta/alpha software I have been in they usually want people with Beta/Alpha experience so the feedback will be tempered with experience in how feedback should be written to help. Usually they will provide a basic guide, but as long as you cover the 5 journalist Qs you should be good: Who did it happen to (computer specs and/or char)? What happened (even what happened just before)? Where (where in the world or what screen with co-ordinates/exact window name)? When (at what point in the process)? and Why (if you have an idea)?

I do not hold any hope getting into alpha considering there are a few thousands people at higher backing tiers. I am just saying this from my experience testing software and without as much interest in the matter as most seem to have in it (I’m an old gamer—like first rev D&D & AD&D old — but still love RPGs, but mature enough to not be champing at the bit). Plus, I have a busy enough schedule anyway, and would rather wait a bit before being sucked into another long term OLRPG. I am happy to wait, but please share video/picts… the latest update sounds great: a lot of progress.

Have fun those whomever get picked. And try to help make it the best game it can be.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
They're already testing internally. Alpha is to locate floaters and bugs internal missed or hasn't gotten to. I've never seen a serious load testing routine in any alpha or closed beta. Only in open betas.

TLDR; sometimes multiplayers tests are not a “load test,” but they do need many people.

I have heard of alpha tests that do not fit the true definition of a load test (where server hardware is specifically being tested), but do test the software’s ability to handle more objects/events/sprite, etc. so that they can test their estimates of how the software will perform at scale. Or sometimes the test a location/level for how many people the map can hold, and if that number will overwhelm the area and decrease the challenge. Overall these sorts of tests reveal if parts of the code base or area design are weaker (or stronger/tougher) than expected.

In an other OLRPG, sometimes a GM would come to a group while adventuring and say, “Hi guys… you want to help me test an area?” and if we agree to be sworn to secrecy (which is a small price to pay for seeing something first) they whisk us away, and we get to help the GM see any weaknesses of the area, or what how real experienced players take on an new area. This happened to me a few times, and the end result was a dungeon that was insanely difficult in the end, because our group cakewalked it the first time. The other time the area was made easier because we got wiped out before we could even get our bearings.

Goblin Squad Member

I am not fit for an alpha. I bought into Rust alpha and even though the game is interesting, I just can not deal with all the Clunky and Glitch.

Hell, I can't even deal with betas, knowing your char gets wiped anyway.

However, I hope I can deal with EE: I think the plan is not to truly wipe characters, but we will have to be prepared for resets of systems and such? And off course lots of not working as intended yet, and very scarce features at first.

If we get to keep our accumulated XP (even if reset)from the start of EE and there is at least some PvE combat then I then I think I will do fine. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Yep. My understanding is that early enrollment characters will not be wiped but I fully expect alpha characters will. I will need to know whether names from alpha will be preserved, however. When the game rolls out people who talk with me might recognize my peculiar habits with language, but I won't be readily identifiable by name.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Honestly, I stopped testing the Wasteland 2 Beta because I went into it with the wrong attitude. I approached it as a game, which is mutually exclusive with approaching it as work.

Goblin Squad Member

I just approach it as a game and when something fails to work the way I think it ought, I let the devs know. That, and furnishing debug info when it shows up.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Frankly, I think I'd be a little put out if folks are getting into Alpha without forking over $1,000 or more...

You have to expect it to happen. They will want to have (whatever number they planned for here) so they can do the max testing possible. All the $1000.00 did was guarantee you a spot... past that they will choose whomever they wish to add to that.

They may not choose anyone from the forums, nor kickstarter backers, they may just recruit from Paizo staff.

Either way, you cant get upset at them for wanting to test everything to the max. We all know how Alpha/Beta tests go, Gaming companies pick who they want to test things. All you did was guarantee your spot.

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
Frankly, I think I'd be a little put out if folks are getting into Alpha without forking over $1,000 or more...

If GW lets the Alpha level backers pick any new testers to invite that would seem like a good way for your kickstarter reward to keep its value. Oh the power you will have....

Goblin Squad Member

Not a bad idea, in my opinion. Would of course depend of exactly how many people GW are planning to include.

Goblin Squad Member

Notmyrealname wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Frankly, I think I'd be a little put out if folks are getting into Alpha without forking over $1,000 or more...
If GW lets the Alpha level backers pick any new testers to invite that would seem like a good way for your kickstarter reward to keep its value. Oh the power you will have....

That actually sounds like a great idea! My wife wouldn't feel so left out :)

Goblin Squad Member

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Would that I could gain from my sweetheart even the faintest flicker of interest over an online game.

Count your blessings, ye companion'd ones!

Goblin Squad Member

You got that right Being!!

Goblin Squad Member

@Being,

Hopefully I will get my wife, my mother, my brother, my best friend & her husband, and two of my Pathfinder players to join this game.

How blessed does that make me? :)

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Husband, brother, nephew, nephew's girlfriend, two of our oldest friends, and the wife and brother of one of the friends. All signed up either on my guild pledge or with add-on accounts.

And how the heck did my Goblin Squad Member title get changed?! It's always dangerous to let me loose to punch buttons...

(Edit: Ah, better!)

CEO, Goblinworks

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Alpha testing will be a wide variety of testing experiences. The people who paid for Alpha access will of course be included in all those tests. But some of our tests will be stress tests when we'll want to have a large number of people pound away on the server to see what happens. And as we get closer and closer to Early Enrollment we'll want to keep amping up the number of people playing the game to ensure that what we begin EE with is stable and works.

The difference between late Alpha and Month One of EE will be a total character wipe and server reset.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Alpha testing will be a wide variety of testing experiences. The people who paid for Alpha access will of course be included in all those tests. But some of our tests will be stress tests when we'll want to have a large number of people pound away on the server to see what happens.

That's completely in line with my expectations.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
The difference between late Alpha and Month One of EE will be a total character wipe and server reset.

That's completely in line with my expectations.

Goblin Squad Member

I guess I missed the post where Xeen expressed some concerns about the nature of late Alpha and Month One of EE and whether or not there would be a character wipe.

Or maybe he's just trying to mock me for the lulz?

Goblin Squad Member

Well no, I was just saying I expected that, I just happened to use your words. I did respond to your post about others being recruited to Alpha.

Goblin Squad Member

Looks promising.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Hopefully the next blog post will include some sample videos of the tests which they run in house. I'm getting way too excited considering we have to wait at least another 6 months for early enrollment.

Goblin Squad Member

Goblinworks blog wrote:
At log in, the player can select a Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, or Fighter to play at 4th level (with prebuilt stats and wearing appropriate gear).

So, a Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, and Fighter walk into a bar...

Goblin Squad Member

AvenaOats wrote:
So, a Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, and Fighter walk into a bar...

Almost :)

LFG! (Looking for Group!) - A Fighter, a Wizard, a Rogue and a Cleric Walk into a Bar...

Goblin Squad Member

Oh yes: party mechanics.

Sure do wish we could have in-game voice so that when we PUG we didn't have to spend the first half hour while the newb downloads, installs, configures, then has to correct the password only to have his Mom call him upstairs to eat.

Or maybe I could just train Dragon to type into my chatbox.

Goblin Squad Member

Gah! Already done, forgot that. Still something to shed more light on.

Goblin Squad Member

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Hmm, whether voice communication is needed or not I suppose would depend on exactly how complex a normal PvP encounter is; if the complexity of fights is not too large, then maybe another system can be adapted instead of voice chat (and I'm pretty sure I don't need to tell anyone here about the disadvantages of voice chat in a PvP game).

There's a system, I believe first developed in the MOBA Dawngate and then adapted to League of Legends, whereby you can "ping" the map quickly and easily with a few predetermined messages. For example, you can call out "Enemy missing" when you aren't sure where the enemy has gone, or you can do a quick "Danger" ping when one of teammates needs to fall back. These provide the message, but also they place a marker in-game (which the enemy team can't see) to better get the attention of your allies.

I wonder if something of the same vein would suffice for an MMO adaptation, or if the orders that people give in an MMO are complex enough that something like that would end up too cumbersome. For example, a designated group leader can ping an attack order on a specific enemy, ping a hold position in a bottleneck to alert melee combatants of the need to hold the line at that location, or ping a distress signal to a nearby allied formation so they can more quickly respond and assist.

Placing such pings in the world could be similar to whatever mechanic is used to target AoE's, except these ones would not be visible to enemies. The system could be expanded to include larger groups than only party members, so that generals can more easily direct their troops on the battlefield, or maybe even map-pings for kingdom-wide alerts.

If the system were well implemented you could set permissions for who can ping, with the default being that only the group leader (or army leader, or settlement leader) can ping, but can allow others to ping. This way the players can ensure they don't get trolled by people spamming unnecessary pings.

The reason I'm proposing this in-game communication system is simple; though out-of-game communications are a strong reason that we don't need full tools for in-game communication, they only go so far. Sometimes you'll be commanding troops from another company who aren't part of your TeamSpeak server, or doing a PUG-style dungeon romp with people from other settlements, or any of numerous other situations where you can't rely on out-of-game communication. Having systems like this to promote stronger in-game communication allows for more coordinated groups and turns group PvP into less of a clusterf-.

And before anyone says it, no this probably should not be the top of the developer's to-do list; however I think it would be a worthwhile investment to put somewhere on the list.

Goblin Squad Member

@Shane, I like that idea a lot.

I'm not sure it's relevant, but I find myself frequently trying to put myself in Ryan's shoes and try to look at features from a perspective of meaningful human interaction. One of the concepts that stood out for me when reading Newbie Induction: How Poor Design Triumphs in Virtual Worlds by Richard Bartle (linked by Stephen Cheney in DayZ / Permadeath / Heirs) was how Instancing served to disconnect players from the community.

I don't know the answers, but I'm asking myself the questions: Does forcing (encouraging?) players to build communities outside of the game serve to make those communities stronger, and therefore more likely to stick around? Will in-game voice chat or other features designed to simply the process of ad hoc grouping be good short-term but bad long-term because they decrease the cost of grouping with random strangers thereby decreasing the value of having strong connections with your meta-game community members?

Goblin Squad Member

That's an interesting perspective to consider it from. Certainly I wasn't thinking of such a macro-scale impact when I wrote it, only thinking of the numerous times I or others were there shouting at our computer screens as our allies did exactly the wrong thing. :)

Goblin Squad Member

please please include a coordinate system for reporting bugs. i hate in some games you have to describe where you are at instead of going (xxxx n, xxx w)

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
AvenaOats wrote:
So, a Wizard, Rogue, Cleric, and Fighter walk into a bar...

Almost :)

LFG! (Looking for Group!) - A Fighter, a Wizard, a Rogue and a Cleric Walk into a Bar...

Yeah, what party would put the squishies first in the marching order and the tank last?

Goblin Squad Member

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A Fighter who is sick of being stabbed in the face every six seconds by the mobs and taking a fireball to the back of the head six seconds after that from his 'ally'.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Will in-game voice chat or other features designed to simply the process of ad hoc grouping be good short-term but bad long-term because they decrease the cost of grouping with random strangers thereby decreasing the value of having strong connections with your meta-game community members?

Isn't the other side of the same coin of 'strong community' exclusion that fragments the population?

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Will in-game voice chat or other features designed to simply the process of ad hoc grouping be good short-term but bad long-term because they decrease the cost of grouping with random strangers thereby decreasing the value of having strong connections with your meta-game community members?
Isn't the other side of the same coin of 'strong community' exclusion that fragments the population?

Sure it does.

I personally do not think GW needs to waste time and money on an in-game voice chat. Team Speak, Mumble, and Ventrillo are easily to access. And if you want something free... Yahoo or MSN Messager are available.

Goblin Squad Member

Teamspeak is free if someone else is footing the cost of the host server.

The developer doesn't have to invest in developing in-game voice at all to enable voice in the game.

If PFO hosted a VOIP server for all players that would serve, IMO. PGI/Piranha/MechWarrior Online hosts a teamspeak server for their players. Bluddwolf uses it or used it for PFO conversations, for example.

The problem I see (and have seen for years) is that the technology is at-base exclusionary unless access is open, common, and indiscriminate.

Goblin Squad Member

Xeen wrote:
I personally do not think GW needs to waste time and money on an in-game voice chat. Team Speak, Mumble, and Ventrillo are easily to access. And if you want something free... Yahoo or MSN Messager are available.

I actually agree with that. While for games like Rust or DayZ voice chat actively adds to the atmosphere and funzies shenanigans the use cases for games like PFO would be better served by programs like vent, mumble or ts.


I would imagine that whether or not they develop in game voice chat or host a teamspeak server that both would be pretty empty.

Anyone aspiring to a settlement or nation is going to have their own voip solution and will expect there people to be on it. We use ventrilo for example, COTP use mumble, Pax use teamspeak I would not see any of these groups having their members on a common server on a regular basis once the game starts.

Goblin Squad Member

A common chat server would be empty as you say if the only people playing are members of large organizations. I'm not certain that will be true. Instead an in-game solution would be populated by, oh, a loose confederation of independently minded players and the newbs just entering the game without prior affiliations.


Being wrote:
A common chat server would be empty as you say if the only people playing are members of large organizations. I'm not certain that will be true. Instead an in-game solution would be populated by, oh, a loose confederation of independently minded players and the newbs just entering the game without prior affiliations.

I would expect the population of independent players to be fairly small to be honest. At the end of the day it is really down to GW if they think it worth running one. I have no particular problem with them doing so I was merely making an observation.

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