I've seen the kensai magus build with an aldori dueling sword. It was an elf focusing on getting as high an initiative as possible and it was amazing. Slow to start but the second he hit lvl 9 with a spell storing dueling blade made everybody at the tables jaws drop with spellstrike intensified shocking grasp with an intensified shocking grasp in the blade, followed by a quickened shocking grasp totalling 23d6 of shock to somethings face.
TL;DR It works, it just gets totally amazing later than sooner.
Yes, I'd vote for a ranged guy too. Sohei or zen archer would work very nicely in mythic.
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You might want to consider an Inquisitor. Flavor-wise, the class really fits the AP nicely. They're good in combat and you can find decent builds on the boards for making them melee or ranged. Depending how your GM handles knowledge of opponents, their ability to identify opponents is very good (won't outshine the Wizard if he wants to be the knowledge guy because Inquisitors are ONLY good at IDing foes). They have a lot of skill points and a good selection of skills. They are a "3/4" caster, going to 6th level with a good spell list.
In other words, they're a really good (awesome really) generalist.
Vs the Paladin - The Paladin will outshine you in straight up combat against evil foes, and probably match you against others. I don't think you'll steal his thunder, but you can stand in the line next to him and do about as well as him.
Vs Wizard - You don't step on the Wizard's toes. The Wizard still retains his role as Arcane spellcaster which you can't even begin to match, and if the Wizard is being the "knowledge" monkey, then you don't usually overshadow him. The only place you can match him is specifically in the area of using knowledges to ID opponents. Of course, you blow him away in conventional combat, but I don't think that'll bother the Wizard.
Vs Cleric - You don't overshadow the Cleric's main roles as you have no channeling and you are a 3/4 caster (to level 6 spells). The cleric isn't as good as you in straight combat, but he's comparable.
My group is planning to play Wrath of the Righteous (in a few months) and I've already statted out my character as a Tiefling Inquisitor of Saranae. There are various builds out there, but I went with a middle of the road build using scimitar and shield. Like many out there, I usually go with two handed weapons for maximum damage, but I decided I wanted to try to make the weapon and shield path work. I'm going to be good at Intimidate and will take Ancestral Scorn at 5th Level (lets you sicken and/or nauseate demons you intimidate); so I can be a debuffer for the group when facing demons.
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it would certainly fit into the party very well without "stepping on anyone's toes"
also, other ideas-
Gish dragon disciple, with a focus on blast spells and smiting with claws and dragon fangs.
archadin, the holy hunter AT, good ranged damage + good saves+ tanky.
druid could fit in well to "help stop the corruption of nature"
if you don't like the druid though, then that's a moot point.
IF you do go paladin, or druid even, I would look into seeing just how much you can push the GM to allow assimar bloodlines and races.
what about:
Tiefling (one who resents the stigma/ostracizing inflicted on his family by their fiendish taint)
fighter 1/wizard [divination|scryer] 1/Eldritch Knight 4/arcane archer
tiefling has great stats for an archer gish, and a scryer qualifies for EK at 3rd (martial prof from fighter, 3rd lvl spells from specialty SLA) so when you start AA at 7th you have +6 BAB and cast at 4th level. you could either dip 4 levels of AA (for imbue arrow and seeker arrow) and go right back to EK, or take AA 8 and then EK until you finish. either way, you only ever lose 1 BAB, should do great as an archer, and will have enough casting to legitimately contribute in that way as well. if you only take AA 4 you'd still get 9th level spells at 20th level (-3 CLs, all by 7th)... i'm not familiar with the AP, if you're not going past maybe like 15th level you're probably better off with AA 8 (-4 CLs, 3 by 7th and one around 11th).
edit: depending on the specifics of the other builds, bard could be a better option overall for the party... with the possible exception of 4th level (not 3rd or 5th, just 4th) i don't think the bard would ever be personally better than this gish, but if you end up with 2 pallies and a melee cleric (or a pally and 2 melee clerics) the buffs from a bard would be a significant enough party boost to be more valuable than the gish's extra personal power. (of course if one of the clerics is an evangelist than a bard is completely redundant).
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If you want a simple archer, but feel the zen archer is overwhelmingly powerful at mid levels or plain cheesy, why not try a straight up Fighter Archer?
The fighter archer levels slowly via feats and don't have the early power-overwhelming feeling of the Zen archer. By the time a fighter-archer gets powerful, your other party members would be strong too.
Also as you are playing the Wraith of the Righteous AP, which does uses Mythic levels, mythic feats gives a lot of love to feat base classes.
A Fighter archer would really shine as the levels go higher, without overwhelming other party members (As they would be just as good with mythic levels too.)
A mix Ranger + Fighter-Archer works too.
@haruhiko88
Yeah, I thought about playing an Elf, but then I probably will be a lot squishier. At the moment I am not sure if this is a good idea... Did your friends character get hit often?
Not as often as you'd think. He had a pretty good AC and if the enemy was something big and hit really hard he would simply delay until the tank went in took some punches then he'd rush in to blow it up.
And I thought the player who is going to be the wizard was our best player. He is not really an optimizer, but I think he is the one who comes to the best decisions in actual gameplay. His PCs are always well-rounded.
I think the undecided player is going to be a cleric. My crusader-build would then be moot and I would be a ranger (switch-hitter) or an inquisitor (melee, but with some ranged capabilites) if you play the bard/arcane duelist.
If you play a ranged or partially ranged "martial" I'd go for arcane duelist bard (buff/melee).
Maybe the paladin player decides to go down the path of archery with his build?
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What would a good archer paladin be? Archetype Divine Hunter? Could that character be a social one?
Archers builds require plenty of feats to really shine. The Paladin archer have to devote all feats he/she gets to range combat feats.
The Divine Hunter archetype helps by giving you one of the essential range feats, Precise Shot, as a bonus feat at 1st level.However, Divine Hunters can't access one of the best Oaths available, the Oath of Vengeance, which allows a paladin to smite extra times a day by exchanging 2 LOHs for 1 extra smite.
Playing an Paladin archer might require you to be a human, just because of that extra feat. You also won't have a lot of extra ability points to throw around.
The Fighter Archer would be really something. I tried to stat it out: 15, 18, 12, 12, 8, 14. Would a dump to wisdom be wise? I think about the likes of Robin Hood and such characters and he was... Not wise. But certainly fun to play.
One problem I have with the most guides is the CHA dumping. I like to play characters with a good grasp of society and have a certain presence because I do that at the game table.
I would suggest a 15, 18, 14, 10, 12, 10. Shift the 12 to your most favoured stat.
As a fighter archer, you DON'T want to be dominated in battle. A full-round attack from you at mid to high (lv 7+) can down a fellow player in 1 round.You may also have to be in the frontlines so more HP is beneficial.
If you will play with a ranged build I'm back to my original choices and I am still undecided between the two concepts...
Please note that from levels 1-4, a ranger archer plays like a range archer, BUT! Once you reach lv 5, you can gain the Point Blank Master feat.
Point Blank Master - Choose one type of ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when firing the selected weapon while threatened.
What does this mean? It means you are no different from a normal 2-handed fighter. You can go frontline and shoot monsters straight in the face. With a good dex, your AC would only be beaten by Monks and shield users. You can even wear a full-plate armour and attack away.
Do note that the "archer" archetype may not be the best for figher-archers. Non-archetype fighter archers can get a higher damage output.
It depends if you think you can gain access to a dualing gloves in this campaign and if you want to perform combat maneuvers at range.
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On an extra note, WoTR would surely means you face a lot of dreaded DR... This is where the feat Clustered Shots makes the Fighter-Archer shine.
Clustered Shots - Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR.
This means that even tough 10+ DR can be easily be broken when you rain 4x 15+ damage arrows. It is even possible to out damage some 2 handed fighter builds.
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Skills would come with a ranger or inquisitor and a bard(arcane duellist).
Jeremias: To ease your decision: If M plays a cleric, I prefer to be the arcane duellist in the game.
I have a nice build worked out already - a very strong half orc version of Mungo Jerry's Ray Dorset (sideburns and all) or Billy Preston, travelling the lands with a small coach, two female background singers and a harpsichord.
Ya know, it's not easy bein' green, but dem poor folks in Kenabres definitely be needin' some entertainment.
What would a good archer paladin be? Archetype Divine Hunter? Could that character be a social one?Archers builds require plenty of feats to really shine. The Paladin archer have to devote all feats he/she gets to range combat feats.
The Divine Hunter archetype helps by giving you one of the essential range feats, Precise Shot, as a bonus feat at 1st level.However, Divine Hunters can't access one of the best Oaths available, the Oath of Vengeance, which allows a paladin to smite extra times a day by exchanging 2 LOHs for 1 extra smite.
Playing an Paladin archer might require you to be a human, just because of that extra feat. You also won't have a lot of extra ability points to throw around.
The Fighter Archer would be really something. I tried to stat it out: 15, 18, 12, 12, 8, 14. Would a dump to wisdom be wise? I think about the likes of Robin Hood and such characters and he was... Not wise. But certainly fun to play.
One problem I have with the most guides is the CHA dumping. I like to play characters with a good grasp of society and have a certain presence because I do that at the game table.
I would suggest a 15, 18, 14, 10, 12, 10. Shift the 12 to your most favoured stat.
As a fighter archer, you DON'T want to be dominated in battle. A full-round attack from you at mid to high (lv 7+) can down a fellow player in 1 round.You may also have to be in the frontlines so more HP is beneficial.
If you will play with a ranged build I'm back to my original choices and I am still undecided between the two concepts...Please note that from levels 1-4, a ranger archer plays like a range archer, BUT! Once you reach lv 5, you can gain the Point Blank Master feat.
Point Blank Master - Choose one type of ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when firing the selected weapon while threatened.
What does this mean? It means you are no different from a normal 2-handed fighter. You can...
I like everything you are saying, Secane.
I'm two levels into a Tiefling Fighter-Archer. I actually started her as an infernal Sorcerer intending to go the EK route, but have now decided her next 19 levels will be a combination of fighter, monk (zen archer) and slayer. Sorcerer allows her to cast Mage Armor and Gravity Bow, and she should still be a +13 BAB, 63+ skill point, and 19-20 feat character (including the feat-ish 'eschew materials') at lvl 15, supplemented by cool odds n ends like darkvision, energy resistance, sneak attack, tracking, etc.
Bolstered by your comments I'm looking forward to it!
Carry on .... ;)
Hm... a Kensai.
Then the cleric and/or the paladin would have to fill in for the archer role. My duelist will definitely not be a ranged combatant.
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Please note that from levels 1-4, a ranger archer plays like a range archer, BUT! Once you reach lv 5, you can gain the Point Blank Master feat.
Point Blank Master - Choose one type of ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when firing the selected weapon while threatened.
What does this mean? It means you are no different from a normal 2-handed fighter. You can...
Just a note, a Ranger can't get Point Blank Master at Level 5. The prerequisite is Weapon Specialization and Rangers can't get that feat (has a prerequisite of 4 levels of fighter). So the only way to get Point Blank Master (other than multi-classing) is to use your Ranger Combat Style Feats. The first chance to get Point Blank Master will be 6th level, BUT (IMHO) a Ranger is generally better off using the 6th Level Combat Style Feat to take Improved Precise Shot. That means Point Blank Master won't be available until 10th Level.
In any case, while Point Blank Master is very nice, the archers I've seen don't usually have too much trouble getting their attacks off without it.
Another interesting way to get Point Blank Master is to do a 3 level dip into Zen Archer. This can really bolster the saving throws of a Fighter or Ranger (+3 to all saves). You don't need Wisdom to do this since you're only doing it to get alot of feats (2 bonus feats, + perfect strike with bow + Weapon Focus with bow + Point Blank Master + Improved Unarmed Strike equivalent = 6 good feats in 3 levels). You don't care about the Flurry, WIS bonus to AC or the +10' movement, it's the feats you want. You also gain an AOO with your unarmed attacks. You do lose 1 BAB and only have d8 hp per level versus d10, but there's got to be a trade-off somewhere. Probably the biggest issue (for me personally) is the lawful alignment requirement. I'm not a big fan of changing alignments just to take classes.
Right now I've got a Paladin/Zen Archer multi-class going. It's doing well so far, but hasn't hit the levels where it should get really good yet, so we'll see.
If you still want to do a ranged Gish then
Aasimar(normal)-Zen Archer 3/Emperal Sorcerer 2 (uses wis for casting)/hellknight enforcer 1 - 4/Arcane Archer 10/HKE 5.
or
Aasimar(normal)-Zen Archer 8/Emperal Sorcerer 1/ Arcane Archer 10/Sorcerer 2 for added monkage.
Alternatively
Aasimar(normal)-Fighter 1, (Any arcane caster) 1, EK 1-5, Arcane Archer 10, EK 6-8.
25 Point buy - don't forget that you still get racial adjustments on top of that. Take an azata-blooded aasimar for dex+2, cha+2
and then:
Str 14 (5)
Dex 16+2 (10)
Con 14 (5)
Wis 8 (-2)
Int 12 (2)
Cha 14+2 (5)
or
Con 13, Wis 10 - no penalties
as we are playing mythic, I would then put the level 4 ability raise in Con; 2nd mythic tier gives you +2 Dex or Cha
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Please note that from levels 1-4, a ranger archer plays like a range archer, BUT! Once you reach lv 5, you can gain the Point Blank Master feat.
Just a note, a Ranger can't get Point Blank Master at Level 5. The prerequisite is Weapon Specialization and Rangers can't get that feat (has a prerequisite of 4 levels of fighter). So the only way to get Point Blank Master (other than multi-classing) is to use your Ranger Combat Style Feats. The first chance to get Point Blank Master will be 6th level, BUT (IMHO) a Ranger is generally better off using the 6th Level Combat Style Feat to take Improved Precise Shot. That means Point Blank Master won't be available until 10th Level.
Sorry, that was a typo. I meant Fighter Archer. With weapon specialization at lv 4 and Point Blank Master at lv 5.
i'm not sure if there was just 0 interest, or maybe it got buried in the other posts... but if you're on a 25 point buy and going mythic the fighter/diviner/ek into arcane archer really does bring a lot to the table (and could work really well with the Dual Path feat). and a standard tiefling has perfect stats for it...
if you don't like that, maybe look at ranger 6/fighter. that gets you early improved precise shot (and gravity bow) without missing out on too many feats. generally, i like archetypes like guide that save you from picking a favored enemy, but if you're doing an AP that's heavy on a specific type (like undead or something) the base ranger might be better.
Sylph Switch Hitter Urban Ranger with cloud gazer and smokesticks
Str 16
Dex 17 (15+2)
Con 12 (14-2)
Int 14 (12+2)
Wis 14
Cha 7
take the like the wind, weather saavy and breeze kissed alternate racials
you might not deal sneak attack with smokesticks, but most demons don't have mist sight or blindsight, and with archery style, you can screw them over through cloud gazer without penalties. plus in melee, you can hit hard with a 2hander.
true seeing doesn't work against nonmagical smoke. in fact, you can tell your party to build around this tactic with all sylphs
smokestick plus ranged barrage doesn't violate the paladins code. it's fair game against demons, and a great way for a group of sylphs to work around their health deficits.
favored enemy (Evil Outsiders) works wonders as does favored enemy (human) because paizo loves their human BBEGs at campaigns end.
@umbriere
Um... Not sure if the rest of the party would like to play sylphs. :)
But still interesting nonetheless. Thanks for the idea!
don't want to play sylphs? ifrit work just as well because they also get a feat that gives them mist sight
the reason you aren't dealing sneak attack is due to a lack of rogue levels, but slapping a 50% miss chance on your foes while being able to ignore that miss chance is pretty sweet.
Thread-Semi-Necromancing:
We are playing, four sessions have passed, currently level two, for those who were always playing. We have:
Human Archer Paladin, no Archetype, "naive" Face
Aasimar Arcane Duelist, THW Melee, "bluff" Face, Scout
Varsian Human Cleric of Desna, Caster/Healer
Human Kensai, main Melee (at least he will become that it if he
survives the first book), Aldori Dueling Sword, dex-based (desperately waiting for Mythic Weapon Finesse)
Elven Wizard, Conjurer