Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Well, still just starting here, but no deaths so far. Did get a near death using 2 small earth elementals. (attack from surprise + high init roll is just brutal.)
Honestly, I would rather scare the pants off the players than maim them. But if they do do something stupid, I will let them die.
(I have killed people in other games, usually for stupidity. In fact it got so bad in one game that we finally had to wall off a part of the game world and tell people "look, if you go in here, you are going to die. We aren't going to bother rolling. We aren't going to play it out. If you go in there, no one ever sees your body again" because people kept going in there and getting killed.)
Most of the deaths I have seen from a player come from people playing frontline fighters and playing up, or from people playing squishy characters and staying at the back of the party. A level 1 front line fighter can't take point in a tier 3-4 game. And casters should always be in the middle of the marching order.
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@Benjamin F
I've had two TPKs with unrecoverable deaths as the GM. Both made me much more doubtful of my abilities as a GM. So often we walk the line between challenging the players and feeling like they're taking advantage of us. When a TPK or a string of deaths occur I think most GMs worry they did something wrong, and someone is going to figure that out and point a finger. It's a hard feeling to avoid. There are a lot of moving parts in this game, and that leaves room for doubt. The bottom line is we all make mistakes, but it's the dice that kill the characters. Sometimes the dice are hot and sometimes they are not. If you worry whether there is something you are doing wrong as the GM, I think the best gauge is if the players come back for more. This is entertainment. If the players stop showing up at your games, you might be doing it wrong. If they make a new PC and come back for another run then how bad can you really be?
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If the druid hadn't summoned that elemental to pull the heat off of him it would have been my first kill!About 105 tables, only three deaths so far.Almost TPK'd us twice, and probably should have killed my Cleric a few times as well. :)
Yah, I really had nothing I could do. :(
But, I think a certain young Snow Leopard vs a Sorcerer opening a door in a snowy Tian Xai camp on the way to a lost temple might have beat me to that honor. If I recall there was a Charge + Pounce + Rake + Crit vs no Mage Armor in the Surprise Round of the first combat.
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But, I think a certain young Snow Leopard vs a Sorcerer opening a door in a snowy Tian Xai camp on the way to a lost temple might have beat me to that honor. If I recall there was a Charge + Pounce + Rake + Crit vs no Mage Armor in the Surprise Round of the first combat.
I murdered another 10 Con Ninja with that one at the FLGS one night, but was lenient enough to allow the cleric to bring him back from the brink.
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I am probably towards the high end of PC deaths at my table.
I try to play the villians the the tactics I see them having. Sometimes it is more fatal sometimes less.
I roll all of my dice open on the table, and alert PCs to predictable patterns of the things they are fighting.
Currently I have no TPKs, but I have defeated the entire party 2 times and left them alive as I understand the motives of the enemies.
This weekend was the first time I can honestly say the dice killed someone as they were grappling the boss, and he confirmed crits with both of his attacks.
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In 21 finished tables I've had 2 PC deaths. I really need to remember to keep my "chaotic evil" dice in the bag. My death totals would be higher if I hadn't miscalculated damage once.
Death #1: Level 2 paladin with 10 CON in City of Strangers Part II, subtier 3-4. She got full attacked by the TROLL that replaced a pack of 5 goblins. Yeah, they upped the ante there.
Death #2: Level 1 cleric, again with 10 CON, got smacked with a quarterstaff crit at the end of Tide of Twilight. Druid had shillelagh up.
Should have beens - I confirmed two consecutive shocking grasp crits in a subtier 1-2 Dalsine Affair game. I used 4d6 instead of the correct 10d6 damage.
I roll in the open. This means no fudging of numbers can really happen. In both the above cases I might have been inclined to fudge damage by a point or 2. The paladin was at EXACTLY negative CON.
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OK, time to actually go check my numbers just for fun, starting from most recent and ignoring campaign mode (this is all from memory, I never wrote it down, but I usually remember them):
City of Strangers 1: Killed 10 Con Cleric by bleeding out
You Have What You Hold: Extremely optimized PC ranger killed Linda who had to play up due to bad dice rolls.
Kortos Envoy: Killed level 10 paladin whose gf was like "whoa, he finally died and I didn't!"
Stolen Heir, Feast of Ravenmoor, Hellknight's Feast, Wardstone Patrol, Glories of the Past 1,2,3, Eyes of the Ten 1,2,3,4, Way of the Kirin, Night March, First Steps 2,3,2,1,1,3, Rivalry's End, Lyrics of Extinction, Disappeared, Blakros Matrimony, Forbidden Furnace, Mantis's Prey, Green Market: No deaths
Veteran's Vault: D-d-d-double crit. Two cnsecutive nat 20s to hit that confirmed, all from out of nowhere. Killed gf of paladin who later died in Kortos Envoy.
King of the Storval Stairs, Below the Silver Tarn, Day of the Demon, Blood Under Absalom: No deaths
Day of the Demon: One wizard died playing up.
We Be Goblins: No deaths
Year of the Shadow Lodge: My table was ridiculously fast and effective. This meant that in the final encounter, they collected over half the successes for the entire venue, all by themselves. Unfortunately, at their tier, each time, that led to an enemy swooping in with a save or die. Eventually, after quite a few times of succeeding, one of them died.
Sarkorian Prophecy, Day of the Demon, In Wrath's Shadow, Day of the Demon, Cyphermage, Refuge of Time: No deaths
Race for the Runecarved Key: Surprisingly, the Tier 12+ table only had two of their members capable of using flight or dimensional magic during the chase. Predictable results happened, with one death thanks to clever contingency from the wizard saving his butt.
Feast of Sigils: Party was blindsided by a hard encounter, one death, and another guy who ran away into serious pain and the next encounter, but I had that one subdue him and prep him to be killed, giving the party time to save him when they came back with a plan. This was also playing vaguely up, so nearly the same group chose to vociferously play down at Refuge of Time above with no deaths.
Cultist's Kiss: No deaths
My Enemy's Enemy: Lucky skill rolls + lucky init + terrible Reflex saves = one character dead, nearly more
Disappeared, Red Harvest, Wrath of the Accursed, Sanctum of a Lost Agex2 (run interspersed with each other with strange temporal distortions showing the two teams, one of which was a recovery team, images of the other), Shadows Fall, Lost at Bitter End, Rebel's Ransom, Fortune's Blight, Song of the Sea Witch, Among the Gods, You Only Die Twice, Sanos Abduction, Dark Menagerie: No deaths
First Steps 3,2,1, Immortal Conundrum
Our Lady of Silver: PC bard tells fellows that the PC wizard who had just used magic jar in the middle of the fight, leaving his helpless body right there, is "still fine, and he's going to take control of them" in Celestial while fighting devils (who speak Celestial). Devils focused and killed wizard, but the body looked dead the whole time so they wasted effort, which helped the PCs avoid any other troubles.
Enigma Vaults: PC frontliner killed due entirely to party cleric's contempt of ooze encounter (used CLW wand instead of actual heal on round before character died). PCs accidentally do something far worse than death with the dead character's body in an attempt to carry it out.
Goblinblood Dead, Cyphermage Dilemma, Severing Ties.
Encounter at Drowning Stones: There's a gunslinger who is responsible for several Animal Companion deaths I didn't mention in the above scenarios due to only rolling nat 20s against allies for some reason. Anyway, she shoots herself in the head with a nat 20 and dies.
Among the Dead, Portal of the Sacred Rune, King Xeros, QFP 2, Rats of Round Mountain 2, QFP 1, Rats of Round Mountain 1, Murder on the Silken Caravan, First Steps 1, Hall of Drunken Heroes, Shadow's Last Stand 2, First Steps 2, Echoes of the Overwatched, Shadow's Last Stand 1, Golemworks, Many Fortunes, Jester's Fraud, Hydra's Fang, First Steps 3, Golden Serpent, Temple of Empyreal of Enlightenmentx2
Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment: TPKed a table of 7? (might have been 6)
Haunting of Hinojai: No deaths
First Steps 1: Rich halfling takes a x3 crit and dies.
Midnight Mauler, God's Market Gamble, First Steps 2, To Scale the Dragon, First Steps 3, Prince of Augustana, Ghenett Manor
Infernal Vault: Killed cleric on last round of damaging duration spell because other PCs couldn't get to him for the heal. Also temporarily killed the paladin until she figured out she had 1d6 more lay on hands after the game, so I reversed that one.
Shades of Ice 3: No deaths
First Steps 2: TPK mentioned above, killed I think 5 PCs.
Dalsine Affair (yep that's right! the rogue would have died if he didn't have that talent that gives some hp as an immediate action), Sewer Dragons, Shades of Ice 2, Heresy of Man 3, Shades of Ice 1, First Steps 3, First Steps 2, Devil We Know 4, Slave Pits, Perils of the Pirate Pact, Frostfur Captives, First Steps 3,1,2,1: No deaths.
Heresy of Man 2: Party oracle loves Pharasma, hates playing games with undead. Bad manners causes all but two characters to perish very early (3 deaths). With some luck, surviving rogue and monk clear rest of adventure, laugh at forumites who insult their classes.
QfP3, Wonders in the Weave 2, Tide of Twilight, Blood Under Absalom, Devil We Know 3, First Steps 1,2,3, Devil We Know 2, Devil We Know 1, Silent Tide, Heresy of Man 1, Black Waters, City of Strangers 2
Beginner Box Bash: Massively many deaths. Those things are brutal! No wonder the boon was a free raise. I was happy the whole table were experienced players. This was a really bad release for new players.
City of Strangers 1, Pallid Plague, Tide of Morning, Citadel of Flame, Penumbral Accords: No deaths
Among the Living: level 1 Druid went first and attacked BBEG. Tier 3-4 minion attacked druid (only target in reach) and killed him from full with a non crit.
Silent Tide, Murder on the Throaty Mermaid, Decline of Glory, Frozen Fingers, Mists of Mwangi, Beggar's Pearl, Before the Dawn 1&2, Delirium's Tangle, Voice in the Void, Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible: No deaths.
Analysis pending!
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So I have killed 31 characters at 19 different tables (the numbers above show 1 less because I can't remember where I killed that cleric the other time), out of 154 different tables (not table credits, but actual tables, so the modules count as 1). Therefore, I actually killed an average of about 1/5th of one character per table, but due to multi kills, I really only killed anyone at about 1/8 of tables. These numbers do NOT include uses of breath of life, dead companions, or ridiculous near-death experiences that defied probability, just PC deaths that required raising magic or a perma-death.
I just felt like my numbers were higher due to three consecutive runs with a death. I may have missed a death or two in there, but certainly not many.
Here's some fun trends--
20 of the 31 character deaths were due to incredibly bad choices made by one or more players during the game, usually the one who died.
1 of the 31 character deaths was due to a very unsurvivable build choice (10 Con frontliner).
4 of the 31 were due to freak natural 20s, either for crits or to hit someone with high AC.
1 of the 31 was due to other freakish luck
3 of the 31 were due to playing up (1 of which was also a bad choice so is counted twice)
Leaving only 3 of 31 for any other reasons.
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Sounds like when I played it, back in March. I haven't played that character since then.Damn bro. Time to get your groove back!
I just lost interest in the character, and now being low on wealth it seems even less fun. I may pick him up again to GM credit him and retrain his first 2 levels to something not bard. Or just put him in a game to add to some GM's kill list, hahaha.
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Anything on my list for a lvl 2.2, hahaha. Who knows, he might grow on my again.
Also... WAY creepy sounding, there...
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13 tables.
2 Confirmed kills (IE, needed more than Breath of Life/Hero's Defiance):
King of Storvall Stairs: Harpy pincushion due to miscommunication between player and GM. This one I do feel bad for.
It happens sometimes. The threat of dying makes things interesting. Dying doesn't, though.
The only time I legitimately softballed an encounter, I was running a table during our local convention for a dad and his 4 kids (between ages 8 and 15, maybe) of Siege of the Diamond City. And even then, only when the absolute worst encounter that the tier 1-2 group had access to.
But it was fun. Tense, hectic, fun.
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If I discount the TPK in We Be Goblins, then my record is not horrid.
let's see....
Scenarios/modules with a kill
Rivalry's End at 6-7:
Thornkeep: Accursed Halls
Thornkeep: The Forgotten Laboratory (2 runs, 2 deaths)
Blakros Matrimony (playing at 6-7, with 5, at the minimum APL forcing up)
Gods Market Gamble (run twice, could have been a TPK both times)
Where Mammoths Dare Not Tread (reversed, due to miscalculated APL)
That's in 28 tables (not credits, due to modules). So, about one in 5.
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I have gmed about 20 games in pfs got my first kill on storval stairs. Ninja ran up to the sorc and real king that could seenhim. She glitter dusted and he got a hasted full round off. All hits... it was 102 damage. Pretty brutal. My second kill even tho at the time he didnt die due to a rules argument was forbidden furnace of the forgotten koor. I drowned a paladin in three feet of lava with an elder fire elemental while his party could only watch in terror.
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I have GMed 14 games with only one casualty caused when the healer, in stead of heal to his seriously wounded ally, he decided to some unuseful action in the middle of combat. My next full-round action killed that unfortunate character.
That's similar to what happened to one of my kills. Alchemist throwing bombs, drops one guy. The only other party member in the room attacks the baddy next to him (instead of healing his ally) then doesn't step away from the unconscious friend. So when the alchemist threw another bomb...
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I've run somewhere in the neighborhood of 35 games, and I've had one TPK and I think two other deaths (that I can think of).For the record... I was present when you brutally slew Amiri in The Icebound Outpost. In fact, I believe we were really close to a TPK in that one... was going south, fast.
If by "brutally slew" you mean "watched in horror as Amiri failed to roll higher than a 7 for like a bajillion rounds in a row". :/
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I just lost interest in the character, and now being low on wealth it seems even less fun. I may pick him up again to GM credit him and retrain his first 2 levels to something not bard. Or just put him in a game to add to some GM's kill list, hahaha.Sounds like when I played it, back in March. I haven't played that character since then.Damn bro. Time to get your groove back!
Just FYI - if you actually got 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 GP, you aren't actually behind (no XP = no advancement).
Sadly, the table I ran got 1 XP, 0 PP (mostly), 0 GP (or very little). They were really close to making it too.
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If by "brutally slew" you mean "watched in horror as Amiri failed to roll higher than a 7 for like a bajillion rounds in a row". :/I've run somewhere in the neighborhood of 35 games, and I've had one TPK and I think two other deaths (that I can think of).For the record... I was present when you brutally slew Amiri in The Icebound Outpost. In fact, I believe we were really close to a TPK in that one... was going south, fast.
Yes, exactly. Brutally slew.
Such a burden... having to keep the party of unwashed heathens alive AND defeat the <redacted> and his <redacted>. A Taldan noble's work is never done.
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It is interesting to see the variety of answers to this question. Let me break my answer down into three parts . . .
PFS games I have run - 0 deaths in 7 sessions.
PFS games I have played in - 2 deaths in 42 sessions.
The second death came from a young player charging recklessly into combat. A second character rushed into help him, and took two heavy hits from an enemy eidolon (I think one was a crit). They guy whose character died was remarkably gracious about it. The kid likes to tell the story about "the day I got George's character killed".
Our Kingmaker Game - 7 permanent deaths, 2 deaths that were subsequently raise deaded, and 2 character retirements. We are nearly at the end of book 3.
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in a little over 100 games, I have killed three characters:
The first wasn't actually my kill; PC rogue took con damage fighting monsters, then later was nearby 8 mooks. Flame oracle could fireball all of them and the rogue, or just five of them. Rogue okays the fireball, fails the save, and oracle rolls really high damage. He killed all the mooks, though.
Second was BBEG in Fortress of the Nail. Players couldn't quite kill it quick enough, and it killed one of them.
Third was a shocking grasp magus crit by an NPC on a wizard. Party wanted to draw the npc in, and everyone hid but the wizard and an archer, and the wizard was closer.
My character deaths:
My summoner died once because he tried to negotiate with a ghost who then crit him.
My Cleric died in the Waking Rune in a TPK. Three people had to die in that game before a death stuck though, due to his Breaths of Life.
My Time Oracle died in You Have What You Hold due to a lucky crit by the BBEG.
My Alchemist died twice in Day of the Demon; once in an early encounter (they took him back to town to be raised), and then when the party TPK'd.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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In ~130 games, I've had 13 deaths. The breakdown is as follows:
1-5:
1 death in Severing Ties (pregen)
3-7:
1 death in Sewer Dragons of Absalom
5-9:
3 deaths in The Hellknight's Feast
5 deaths in The Fabric of Reality (All in the same session. Party still managed to pull it out, and the mission was a success. All were able to be raised.)
2 deaths in The Golden Serpent
7-11:
1 death in The Sarkorian Prophecy
I haven't ran as much in 7-11, which is why that area is a bit thin. I think that 5-9 is the most deadly tier, as it's the tier where scenario authors realize that PCs can afford Raise Dead, but are not so powerful as to overwhelm practically everything in the game.
On the whole, I wouldn't consider myself that lethal of a GM. I've never GMmed an unrecoverable death, and generally try to avoid situations where that could occur.
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Let's see...
Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment: 1 TPK at tier 1-2, 2 deaths and two dying but ultimately rescued at tier 4-5.
Shadow's Last Stand part 1: TPK
Way of the Kirin: 1 death
Devil we Know, part 4: 2 deaths
Thornkeep - The Enigma Vaults: 2 deaths (The Visitant cares not for your screams of mercy...)
So 14 dead, that I can remember, in 80 tables of credit.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I have observed a very low kill/scenario ratio at home games, a slightly higher ratio at local store games, and a much higher ratio at larger conventions. Most of the danger comes after PCs fail to coordinate. {b]Every time[/b] a PC turns to a cleric in the middle of a fight and says, "You don't channel positive energy?!" it leads to dire straits.
The most dangerous thing your character can do, it seems, is walk into a briefing room with several strangers.
And , sure, it helps if the GM is familiar with your character, too. A heavy-handed side comment ("Too bad none of you have a chime of opening, eh?" "Oh, hey! Wait! I do!!") can pull a party's bacon out of the fire.
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I've killed 3 PC's, and almost killed another out of roughly 60+ games.
Killed the same PC twice in back to back adventures, one from 2 crits in a row, and the other by..
Being coup-de-grace'ed in a grapple and having the PC's soul sent to Lissala. Sorta worse since it was a paladin. Tasty tasty, LG souls
The third death was powerful crit from a high strength mob with an x3 weapon. Went from full to dead instantly. Although getting the raise dead was an adventure in itself!
The near death was from a confusion cast on the party and the dervish dance magus critting a wounded party member. The player actually used his Folio reroll to turn the 20 into a 3, making it a miss. Was still the best use of a reroll I've ever seen :)
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I aim to maim - either get the party very low on HP, or unconscious and dying. From there, the bad guys will get a bit smug and turn their attention to real threats. If any leniency I show as a GM gets abused by the players, I'll metagame that leniency away.
As a result, I've only had 1 (maybe 2?) deaths in 58 games.
I want players to feel challenged, with a risk of death still there if things go really awry, but I don't want burn up a good story with a TPK unless things get catastrophic, especially for players who hate feeling helpless.
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My dice roll hot. They just do. I trend towards a character death every 4-5 games. That said, I also have several really rough scenarios that account for that. Two in Bonekeep, two in Waking Rune, Among the Living had a 30 point crit on a level 1 character (the players missed with a total of 4 AoOs and readied attacks...), a few more here and there. I try to make sure players don't die at low levels. Usually, they survive, baring freakish dice rolls. At higher tiers, I play just as hard as the players, without busting the rules.
I have had my own characters die twice. Once due to a stupid decision, one due to grapple mechanics being....not enjoyable.
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Shades of Ice 1. The party wizard pulls the last three fights into one fight and flies away as the gunslinger stay back to save him. The boss takes no prisoners.
Voices in the void. The inquisitor was eaten by
Citadel of flame. despite two level 2s the apl was to play up.
Quest for perfection part 3. The boss critted one person with both of his attacks in one round.
The sanos abduction. A con dumped flowing monk
Murder on the throaty mermaid. valros the DM pregen got bullrsuhed off the boat and drowned.
Bonekeep 1. 2 fights were merged and a player decided to walk alone into another room by himself with 1/2 HP.
The traitors lodge. The same guy from bonekeep decided to try to solo a fight in a narrow hallway, and an unintelligent monster ate him. Then the boss dropped 2 people. The group as a whole did not have the resources for the boss.
City of strangers part 1. A staggered ninja bluffs he is dead when he is staggered. Then sneak attacks the bad guy. I warned him the bad guy would attack him back, and still did it. So he bled to death before the party could get to him.
So in 36 Sessions I killed 12 people.
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I think that based on some amount of evidence-gathering here, a GM's deaths are often partially influenced by the playerbase around them, as it seems like extremely bad choices are the cause of a lot of these.
Also, anecdotally looking through mine above, I agree with Chris that home game PFS deaths < store game PFS deaths < Con PFS deaths.
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I would agree that people playing together survive much much more. They play as a team, they know what they are all capable of. Since you trust the people you play with you communicate as a group and work together. So if someone does something suicically stupid the friends will say something and the one with a death wish may be more prone to listen.
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I agree with Mark Seifter and Finlanderboy. Reading these deaths, there are a few that are just dice going cold (or really hot, in the case of criticals), but the vast majority seem to be a terrible tactical decision and/or players abandoning a person in trouble.
Teamwork definitely plays a part. The groups out in my neck of the woods, at least the ones I've been in or run for, do spend at least a minute or two getting to know about who's playing what, and they can kinda build their tactics on that. This may have something to do with me as a GM, since I always ask folks what they're playing, partly to try to make sure the group has a wide variety of classes and that I didn't end up with a table of six wizards or something.
It doesn't work every time, though, and sometimes even a regularly reliable and solid player with hurl his character into a terrible situation despite warnings from fellow players. I think some folks just love to do dumb things from time to time.
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As far as I can remember I killed 18 player characters (6 of which were a TPK) being currently at 180 tables of credit. Most of them were simply unlucky dice for the players but some…well.
#3-08 Among the Gods
#3-15 The Haunting of Hinojai
#4-13 Fortress of the Nail
Pathfinder Online Thornkeep
Jade Regent Adventure Path
Bonekeep Level 2 - Maze to the Mind Slave
I don’t enjoy killing players, even the arrogant or foolhardy ones as it always leaves me with an empty kind of feeling. And I find it rather disturbing (not to say silly) that some GMs seem to be proud of having killed a huge number of PCs. I always wonder how much they go out of their way to actually do kill players – are they going after downed ones with a vengeance? Yes there are monsters that will simply continue hitting on characters that are already in the minus as it’s their nature or an effectively placed area affect gets them but in general I leave downed players alone. The “don’t be a jerk” rule goes for GMs, too.
Alas, I must admit I’d really like to wipe the smile of my VL’s face by killing his level 11 dwarven fighter/stalwart defender. He simply can’t stop bragging about his AC 43, rubbing it in my face every time. He even bough a glamour for his full plate so it looks like simple clothing, to fool the opposition. I really have to get him to play “The Waking Rune” before he hits level 12…
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But, I think a certain young Snow Leopard vs a Sorcerer opening a door in a snowy Tian Xai camp on the way to a lost temple might have beat me to that honor. If I recall there was a Charge + Pounce + Rake + Crit vs no Mage Armor in the Surprise Round of the first combat.Rake is only useable if the creature starts it turn grappling so that's a 10 yard killer GMM foul...:)
Nope, objection overruled. You can also use it on a pounce. Those are the two times you can use rake.
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Nope, objection overruled. You can also use it on a pounce. Those are the two times you can use rake.But, I think a certain young Snow Leopard vs a Sorcerer opening a door in a snowy Tian Xai camp on the way to a lost temple might have beat me to that honor. If I recall there was a Charge + Pounce + Rake + Crit vs no Mage Armor in the Surprise Round of the first combat.Rake is only useable if the creature starts it turn grappling so that's a 10 yard killer GMM foul...:)wow... learn something everyday.
Thanks Mark, I had overlooked that in the Pounce rules.
No problem. And hey, if you were wondering why your bandersnatches (with their 4 rakes and pounce!) weren't really snatching any banders before today, that's why.