Catfolk Rogue build idea - Suggestions?

[Ze'Rehan]

Okay, so I so far think that this build seems pretty nice... Yes, it isn't the "best" for combat, especially in the beginning. But, we've made it through 3 levels so far and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. Then again, I gave him a lot of character... But, what are your opinions on this build?

Note, the DM gave us a free feat from the original player companion for Rise of the Rune Lords, which we are currently playing.
Feats:
Level 01 City Born (Riddleport); Catfolk Exemplar (Claws)
Level 03 Aspect of the Beast: Night Senses
Level 05 Weapon Finesse
Level 07 Improved Natural Attack (Claws)
Level 09 Two-Weapon Fighting (will start using claw blades at this time)
Level 11 Vital Strike
Level 13 Defensive Combat Training
Level 15 Improved Vital Strike
Level 17 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 19 Catfolk Exemplar (Enhanced Senses - Scent)

Rogue Talents:
Level 02 Rogue Talent - Vicious Claws
Level 04 Rogue Talent - Bleeding Attack
Level 06 Rogue Talent - Single-Minded Appraiser
Level 08 Rogue Talent - Powerful Sneak
Level 10 Rogue Talent - Deadly Sneak
Level 12 Rogue Talent - Opportunist
Level 14 Rogue Talent - Improved Evasion
Level 16 Rogue Talent - Skill Mastery (Stealth, Disable Device, Acrobatics; Perception; Sleight of Hand; Sense Motive)
Level 18 Rogue Talent - Crippling Strike
Level 20 Rogue Talent - Trap Spotter

[Nyaa]

Ze'Rehan wrote:

But, what are your opinions on this build?

What is the purpose of this build?

Please post your attributes.

[Scavion]

Why do you have Vital Strike and Two Weapon Fighting?

[Secret Wizard]

Hi! I am going to list the issues with this build as follows. Take this as friendly advice.

1. Post your attributes. It's important for us to know what we're working with.

2. I don't see if you've taken any archetypes. Is that so?

3. You have literally not a single way to apply Sneak Attack. If your idea was to do so while flanking, I also fail to see the added mobility to do so.

4. You've taken Two-Weapon Fighting AND Vital Strike, which give you contradictory goals. It is best to focus on one or the other, as they can both be useful but they BOTH require heavy investment.

5. You have no way to increase Fort or Will saves, which are extremely weak for Rogues. I expect your character will not survive past level 6, when stuff becomes save-or-die. You've taken City Born too, which boosts your already sky-high Reflex save.

6. As a Rogue, you get 3/4 BAB, meaning you don't have great accuracy. Here are the several ways in which you've increased your accuracy: ---. Not only you haven't, but you've taken talents like Powerful Sneak/Deadly Sneak that reduce your attack rating for MINIMAL increases in damage.

7. I don't believe Single-Minded Appraiser gives you ANY BENEFIT AT ALL. I mean, sure, you can appraise gems and stuff while under duress and in combat, but how many times will that come in handy?

8. You don't need TWF if you only use a Claw Blade in one hand... I could see the point of using them, but this build already needs as many feats as it can get to increase defenses and utility. I don't recommend going TWF.

Here is a proposed corrected build:

Attributes - great STR, at least 15 DEX, good CON, meh INT, meh WIS, meh CHA

Archetypes: Scout archetype (allows to apply full sneak attack after a charge)

Items: A Chain Shirt will be great for extra AC early on. You don't need weapons other than your claws.

Progression:
1. Dodge (good for AC) OR Desperate Battler (extra accuracy), Country Born OR Lone Wolf OR Totem Spirit (Moon Clan or Spire Clan) -- these boost your low Will/Fort saves.
2. Weapon Training (Claws) -- increase that accuracy first.
3. Nimble Striker (charging grants you accuracy, no reason not to get this)
4. Combat Trick: Claw Pounce -- now you can always make two claw attacks AND apply sneak attack. You are a god of damage now, but you need higher accuracy yet.
5. Dodge OR Desperate Battler, whichever you don't have.
6. Vicious Claws
7. Catfolk Exemplar (Scent)
8. I like Offensive Defense but Underhanded works well too.
9. Aspect of the Beast (Darkvision)
10. Improved Evasion
11. Twist Away
12. Slippery Mind
13. Improved Critical (Claws)
14. Crippling Strike
15. Critical Focus
16. Opportunist
17. Improved Initiative
18. Feat: Destroy Identity
19. Great Fortitude/Mobility
20. Another Day

[Ze'Rehan]

15 point buy on stats, so my character is definitely weak to start off with. I'll admit, I went with skill-based (12 skill points per level). At the time of creation, we had a paladin, magus, and alchemist. Found after a few sessions that the paladin was built for ranged and skills (d'oh!) and the alchemist is a sneaky person who doesn't mind stealing from the team, so my skills are helping me keep on him...

But, with the high acrobatics I didn't see a need to worry about the problems of AoO by movement. And I *did* do one thing to offset my 3/4 BAB: Weapon Finesse. And 2 sets of claw blades! Why just go with one? This is the purpose of 2WF. Plan to also end up offsetting the penalties of things like Deadly Sneak by only adding the number enhancement when I enchant my claw blades. IE: +1, +2, +3 vs +1 Flaming.

At level 1:
Str: 11
Dex: 14
Con: 10
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Char: 12

Level 4: +1 to str (bump it to a 12).
Level 8, 12, 16, and 20: +1 dex each (15, 16, 17, and finally 18, assuming no magical enhancements).

And yes, I plan to flank. Since creating my character (no archtype), we have gained another rogue who went with a high dex vs int and is focused on combat (we're working pretty well on flanking each other), and just recently a Phalanx Soldier and an oracle.

As for City Born, it was a RPing thing, I'll admit. Fit with the trait I picked from the new player's companion for the adventure path (Family Ties - I'm adopted by a Varisian family when I was young; my parents were hired for an archeology team down in Chalix (catfolk commoners, they were expendable in the eyes of the wizard) and were lost at one of the ruins. Quite admittedly, probably not the best mechanics-wise.

Oh, I should have mentioned (sorry) that we're limited on sources. CRB, APG, Advanced Races, Ultimate Combat and Magic, Ultimate Equipment... And that new class book. Ultimate Classes or whatever it is called. (Bad Ze'Rehan, should have mentioned that in the beginning!)

Rogue Talent - Weapon Training - This probably would have been a good choice... I took Single-Minded Appraiser strictly for the RP aspect. (We've kinda stressed RPing and are kind of laid back. Have had fun emphasizing the feline aspect...) Definitely not an optimal choice on my part... Your suggestion of talent is quite better.

Nimble Striker would be good, but I replaced the Sprinter item with racial climb (has paid off multiple times!). Just to make sure I point out what I've taken so no one (beyond this point) yells at me...
Cat's Luck
Cat's Claws
Climber
Low-light Vision

Claw Pounce - Problem: Requires BAB of +10 (not until much later) and I can't due to Alternate Racial Feature (which I failed to mention in the original post).

Offensive Defense - Circumstantial, but I could definitely see where it would be used often enough to be quite worth it. Underhanded may or may not be applicable. Especially once I have the claw blades, DM might rule them as not being concealed.

Twist Away - This looks pretty spiffy, actually... Never knew about it.

Improved Crit - I originally took this back when I was under the mistaken idea that crits also meant SA (3.5 sneaking into my assumptions). Since they don't, I don't consider 19-20 to be enough an improvement to warrant this feat just to double my 1d8 to 2d8. Plus, you'd laugh if you saw my standard rolls in a night. Most nights, my rolls are pretty low on average. Doesn't make sense, but it's pro quo for me.

Critical Focus - If I had a higher threat range weapon where I would crit often enough, definitely!! With my low range, I will disagree on this part. No offense!

Destroy Identity - I worship a non-evil deity. Sorry... lol My character is the "Good" rogue. Donates to the orphanage quite a bit. The other rogue is the more "Evil" one. He deals with interrogations along with the alchemist. lol

Another Day - I figure that by the time I get this, I won't be reaching -1 - -10 very often... Enough damage will be flying around to straight up kill my rogue instead. (Which hopefully doesn't happen)

Thanks for your insights, though! And yeah, I definitely will be having weak saves for Fort and Will. :-/ And you definitely mentioned a few I never thought about and would be quite tantalizing. :-)

And to the comments about Vital Strike and 2WF, they compliment each other. If you move, you can only do one attack. If you only take a 5 foot step, you can 2WF. From my experience, there is a lot of movement going on in combat, so Vital Strike will get a lot of use. First round that I've moved close enough to fight, if the opponents are spread out, etc. I have had it occur way too many times for this one not to pay off.

So, purpose: I'm being enough of a skill monkey to meet my skill monkey desire without completely neglecting my need to aid out in combat. Originally, I was the only rogue. However, now there are 2 of us and we are flanking quite well in combat. :-) But, I'm not going to neglect my need to offer the skills, hence Skill Mastery.

[Ze'Rehan]

Well, bah... I had added extra spaces to try to help separate sections, but it didn't help. :-( Sorry for the confused jumble that it now looks like.

[DominusMegadeus]

How do you hit anything with 3/4ths BAB and 12 Strength and TWFing?

[Robert Carter 58]

DominusMegadeus wrote:

How do you hit anything with 3/4ths BAB and 12 Strength and TWFing?

He's using weapon finesse- dex based.

[Ze'Rehan]

Correct, Robert. And lots of flanking to offset the TWF penalty.

[Secret Wizard]

I admit I forgot about the BAB requirement of Claw Pounce, but the build can be modified easily.

Anyhow, good luck. I think it's going to be really hard out there for your character. You are too readily trading attack bonuses.

Did you know powerful sneak increases your damage by 0.5 points? It's even less if you roll 1d8 dice.

[DocShock]

I built a very similar character and had fun with him for a while. Since you're playing a campaign, get your buddies to take the Outflank teamwork feat ASAP. That's a bonus +2 to attacks that should work well as long as your pals are cooperative. You might even end up granting them bonus attacks if you land a crit.

Here's the other thing. I ran some DRP calculations for a level 10 version of this guy (against AC 24), and you do essentially the exact same damage (because it all comes from SA anyway) if you get a ring of rat fangs to give you a natural bite attack and ignore the claw blades. Then you have 3 attacks at full BAB and two of them are dealing the D8 damage. It's fewer attacks, but you'll land them more often. This lets you ignore TWF, improved TWF, etc, which frees up way more options for the feat-light feline. Pair this with an amulet of mighty fists.

Make sure you get Jaunt Boots as soon as possible. They'll let you 5-foot step 15 feet to make sure you can get back into flanking and still land all those attacks.

[Ze'Rehan]

Yeah, when it comes to combat, my guy won't be the cream of the crop. Kind of figured I'd be lacking when I even thought about trying to go for skills.

And, admittedly, he's already had a rough start. He's dropped into negatives 4 times already. But, with our group, no one was willing to go fight the goblins up close. Our group isn't very optimized at all... Already got plans that, if this one dies, I'll be making a big brute of a fighter next. One who is truly geared to "smash gud". (Backup WAS going to be a cleric, but we now have the oracle...)

Thanks!!

I'm hoping to have fun with him, but he won't be stealing the spotlight in combat. Though, he did do fairly well this past session when I was able to flank with the other rogue. I think it was the most damage he's done yet, thanks to the SA using d8's.