PAP (Player Assising Player) vs. PVP


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

@Leperkhaun

I do fully realize that and look forward to the game as it will be. Also as Pax Shane said I will play it like Kingmaker. I also agree that it won't be the mainstay of the game for quite a while and by then it will be the best part of the game anyway so everyone will have a great time.

Goblin Squad Member

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yeah at the end of the day it will be up to US as players to decide the culture of the game and i think that how it should be. if the majority of folks have a live and let live policy and then we all band together when the more hardcore folks try to move we have a very good chance of preventing them from expanding all over the place.

however thats the thing, WE need to decide that and WE need to work together if thats what we want.

we just need to recognize what others will do so that we can plan and not be surprised.

Goblin Squad Member

leperkhaun wrote:

yeah at the end of the day it will be up to US as players to decide the culture of the game and i think that how it should be. if the majority of folks have a live and let live policy and then we all band together when the more hardcore folks try to move we have a very good chance of preventing them from expanding all over the place.

however thats the thing, WE need to decide that and WE need to work together if thats what we want.

we just need to recognize what others will do so that we can plan and not be surprised.

You have hit on some very relevant possibilities and truths there. All of the EE crowd will be a drop in the bucket by OE, despite naturally absorbing some of the influx.

Goblin Squad Member

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I know Andius tried and was fried for putting forward his treaty, but a more informal confederation or letter of intent might serve well along the same theme. Just don't jam all the control mechanisms into it.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
I know Andius tried and was fried for putting forward his treaty, but a more informal confederation or letter of intent might serve well along the same theme. Just don't jam all the control mechanisms into it.

What is so special about the EE crowd (settlements) that we are deserving of such a unified front, against a storm that will not target all but just a few?

Yes Andius had called for a treaty, and we all know its flaws, and he was fried for it as you say.

I had called for the Bigtown approach and to not remain soft in the face of the storm, and I was fried for it.

So I ask again, based on what is this sense of entitlement that EE should be defended against a storm that would welcome many of us to join within its winds?

Those of us that have spoken most loudly on the side of the impending player vs, player conflict, have been fought at every turn, and countered with fears of supposed "toxic" behavior and Care Bear utopian dreams.

I will bide my time, and that of my company, and we will see what EE brings. It will remain to be seen whether or not EE will be a hand that feeds us or one that we shall chop off and join the storm.

Goblin Squad Member

Idealism is a legitimate play-style. However it would be easier to conquer them than to organize them into an alliance that has enough strength to know peace in its own lands.

"In peace prepare for war, in war prepare for peace. The art of war is of vital importance to the state. It is matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence under no circumstances can it be neglected."
--Sun Tzu--

Goblin Squad Member

Honestly I dont think it will be something that treaties and alliances will solve. its going to be something that develops. If the game evolves where its more beneficial for people to leave their borders open and such it will be meta that people just do because thats how you play this game.

I encourage people to get together and play the way you want to play, show it can be successful dont just talk about it. Show how cooperation can beat other folks.

Goblin Squad Member

... but stand sure, supplied, and ready.

Goblin Squad Member

@being

exactly. Hope for peace but prepare for war, because if you dont you will get caught with your pants down.

Goblin Squad Member

To return to the topic, I do not think the OP was asking or suggesting alliances or "Big Town". I think he was asking for mechanics and design consideration. PaP is the opposite side of PvP...both are player interactions, the OP just does not think all interactions need be hostile, combative, or even competitive. I agree with the OP, I hope there are mechanics that allow me to assist and cooperate with another who might not necessarily have asked for it (or even mechanics for doing this on a larger scale). I hope the net gain from such a situation would be greater than that of doing the act solo.

Goblin Squad Member

KitNyx wrote:
To return to the topic, I do not think the OP was asking or suggesting alliances or "Big Town". I think he was asking for mechanics and design consideration. PaP is the opposite side of PvP...both are player interactions, the OP just does not think all interactions need be hostile, combative, or even competitive. I agree with the OP, I hope there are mechanics that allow me to assist and cooperate with another who might not necessarily have asked for it (or even mechanics for doing this on a larger scale). I hope the net gain from such a situation would be greater than that of doing the act solo.

That is exactly the type of thing I was looking for but failed to express it quite so well. PVP is great but have the other side too.

Goblin Squad Member

I would like to see the magic system include buffs that players will all want. A character would have to specialize in player buffs to be good at it, but then everyone would want those buffs so the buffing mage would stay quite busy. The ability to buff others should take a lot of training to keep it rare but for people that enjoy that kind of non-combat gameplay it would be a lot of fun.

Goblin Squad Member

Notmyrealname wrote:
I would like to see the magic system include buffs that players will all want. A character would have to specialize in player buffs to be good at it, but then everyone would want those buffs so the buffing mage would stay quite busy. The ability to buff others should take a lot of training to keep it rare but for people that enjoy that kind of non-combat gameplay it would be a lot of fun.

something like SWG dancers or DAoCs minstrels?

Goblin Squad Member

I would rather an almost complete lack of long-term magic buffs; make it short term buffs that have to be applied during the combat. However, that isn't sticking very well to the Pathfinder IP, so I would understand if there were widespread long-term buffs.

I don't want alts whose sole purpose is providing long-term buffs to be a thing. That doesn't seem like a very fun character concept. Maybe the solution to consolidating the two fields of thought is to have the "buffer" role provide long term buffs that can be enhanced if the buffer is present during the combat (example: wizard casts mage armor on a target to give a long-term, small buff to defenses. If the wizard casts mage armor a second time on the same target, it consumes the first buff to give the person a short-lived but much stronger buff to defenses).

Another solution could be to spread the buffs out among all the character classes (cleric gets some, wizard gets some, bard gets the most) so that a character's sole use doesn't just become about providing long-term buffs and then logging out.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Shane Gifford wrote:
I would rather an almost complete lack of long-term magic buffs; make it short term buffs that have to be applied during the combat... I don't want alts whose sole purpose is providing long-term buffs to be a thing.

Personally, I've seen too many "buff bots" (alt characters who just stand around and buff the main's group) that I'm tempted to ask that buffs only apply to current group members, even though I haven't really processed what unintended side effects might occur.

Goblin Squad Member

Buffs are a normal part of Pathfinder and all forms of casters have some and even non-casters have buffing powers occasionally as well. If you make it too exclusive to one role then you will end up with the alt buff bots all over the place. I would figure, give each role their own with the added ability for some of these buffs to effect a designated person(s) or the current party just as it does in the TT game or many other MMORPGs. Maybe to make it more Sandbox like you could have casters or roles that can do a build your own type buff mechanic. In the TT game you can create your own spells and classes with balanced powers. With a Sandbox classless setup like PFO will be it gives huge potential to craft buffs or other powers and spells to do this type of work.

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
Pax Shane Gifford wrote:
I would rather an almost complete lack of long-term magic buffs; make it short term buffs that have to be applied during the combat... I don't want alts whose sole purpose is providing long-term buffs to be a thing.

Personally, I've seen too many "buff bots" (alt characters who just stand around and buff the main's group) that I'm tempted to ask that buffs only apply to current group members, even though I haven't really processed what unintended side effects might occur.

I can see the concerns. Though I will admit to missing the gratitude that others would show my druid in early WoW for just providing mark of the wild buffs to any friendlies I encountered out in the wilderness. Something that went away after several buffs were put into non-stackable categories and most classes were white-washed to be flavored versions of each other instead of unique play-styles.

I would like to see a system where Buff spells might be easy to get, but training them up can provide for better benefits or longer durations. An example from the TT might be Bull's Strength.

Bull's Strength had a static benefit of 1d4+1 to Strength ratings, but lasted for a number of rounds per caster level. I could imagine a novice spellcaster being able to provide a Bull's Strength buff for a period measured in seconds. You would take these guys with you into the fray and keep them in your group. The veteran spellcaster who has trained in buffs might be able to cast the spell such that it could last an hour (at max). So perhaps you pay someone a few coins to cast it on you before going into a dungeon or get a friend to do so for you.

I am not as worried about buff bots, because these spells supposedly require a spellcasting slot which is consumed through use and requires a "rest" in order to get it back. And then from last I heard, there would be a limited number of "rests" a player could reasonably take in a day. So long as each buff is a small edge instead of a game-changer, I do not see how buff bots would be any worse of a problem than heal-bots and inventory mules, which we can already reasonably suspect will be plentiful.

Goblin Squad Member

I don't think the spells will be one for one as they are in the core book. 2nd level Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance are CL 3 and would last 18 seconds. With a 4:1 (1:4?) real time day it would be a waste of time to cast buffs. I am pretty sure the duration to be longer than core, and out of combat recovery time will be short.

Buff bots will happen but its up to players to play their class in a way that makes the buff bot seem inferior on all counts.

Why /follow a bot when a real player is 500% better at the job.

It is a MMO, no a MMeO.

Goblin Squad Member

leperkhaun wrote:
Notmyrealname wrote:
I would like to see the magic system include buffs that players will all want. A character would have to specialize in player buffs to be good at it, but then everyone would want those buffs so the buffing mage would stay quite busy. The ability to buff others should take a lot of training to keep it rare but for people that enjoy that kind of non-combat gameplay it would be a lot of fun.
something like SWG dancers or DAoCs minstrels?

The ability to train your character for a support role outside of combat, you could train in crafting and buffing as a character for instance. But most mmo's are different than PFO in that you can grind a bunch of alts to a descent lvl pretty quick , in PFO you are paying for each alt to train so a bunch of alts in different roles is not going to be common, unless you are all going to spend ALOT of money on training.

It would be like any other role , the more you concentrate on one thing to train the better you are at a specific role , buff training could be tiered so that there are specialists in it, and some people with don't specialize but have minimal buffs. Most people will want to be the one who gets buffed by the specialist, a few will want to be the expert buffer who is poor at combat. It's more of a social play-style than direct PVP gaming.

Goblin Squad Member

Just like to point out, Bull's Strength and the other stat bump spells are minutes per level, not rounds per level.

I agree with that, Vwoom; as long as a buffer needs to be active instead of buffing in town and afking, then a human will be better most times and it should make buff bots a minor issue.

Goblin Squad Member

@all

I am sorry, you are absolutely correct Shane.

I do still think my point holds water. A 3-9 min goes very fast in game.

Haste a spell that admittedly should not have a very long duration is 1 round per level would have been a better example is still to short. TT 6 rounds can take anywhere from half an hour to triple that in game it would be gone in a blink.

Again, thanks for keeping me honest.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

I'm actually ok with haste lasting about 30 seconds. It gives some serious bonuses (increased armor, speed, reflex saves, and an extra attack). A buff that lasts that long gives you a quick burst of power, but not something you can use all the time. Seems perfectly balanced.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

They'd likely set it to 10 minutes per level. Or remove the "per level" and set it at an hour. Also, Pathfinder set the bonus at 4 instead of 1+1d4.

Goblin Squad Member

Or they could make the buffs be consumed by actions...this would have the TT feel in that if I buff you, you can still table talk and plan between "rounds".

An example of how this would work, your buffs each act like an endurance bar, doing things which expend endurance (or whatever is relevant for the buff in question, +CHA buffs would be expended by +CHA acts, etc.) also expend the buff. Standing idly while making plans or waiting for people, etc...either do not expend anything, or have a relatively slow buff countdown.

But, I have never played with a DM who was strict on table talk except when it was relevant to gameplay (such as deliberate separation of teams or trying to be stealthy).

Goblin Squad Member

KN,

That does not work for me. A group of bandits could buff and sit for hours waiting for passers by hit them run off get buffed again and pick another ambush spot. The flip side being settlement warfare I don't see why buffs should expire 30 seconds into the battle because they have "used" them. Buffs need to expire on there own. I would just like to see them last a bit longer in PFO.

Goblin Squad Member

I wouldnt mind minutes per level for those kinds of spells. That means that to have the most effective buffer, you need to have 2.5 years dedicated to whatever magical role you pick.

Honestly though I think that buffs in general should be short combat focused buffs. So having a buff last for a minute to help you out is fine.

Goblin Squad Member

Vwoom wrote:
A group of bandits could buff and sit for hours waiting for passers by hit them run off get buffed again and pick another ambush spot.

I actually like the way that sounds.

Goblin Squad Member

Lifedragn wrote:
I am not as worried about buff bots...

On further reflection, I actually won't have a problem with buff bots in PFO. There's something about knowing that Goblinworks is profiting from those characters being trained (and hopefully from those characters being able to log in to the game) that makes me much more comfortable with it. I hereby withdraw my objection :)

Goblin Squad Member

The buff bots will also need gear and spell components in order to cast properly but they will lack ability to defend themselves and will fall quickly if they end up in battle, potentially even in PvE since GW won't use the standard aggro system.

Thus, costly both IRL and in game.

Although I must add I really don't like bots in MMORPGs.

Goblin Squad Member

On a few topics discussed. There are plenty of pretty easy ways to handle law enforcement other than killing.

An Exile mechanics were you are give a period of time to leave the settlements territory safely after which you are flagged to be killed if you come back to the settlement for a defined period of time.

A Fine mechanic where the criminal is required to pay the settlement a defined amount of gold, probably at some guard post. Give the player a period of time to pay the fine before being flagged to be killed. You could even set it to escalate to higher levels of fines before resorting to killing.

You could even combine the two any way that you like.

Both mechanics would likely take negligible amounts of time and are easily set to be customizable by the settlement.

Much more complicated, though probably a valid approach would be to allow a player to work off a fine rather as an alternative to paying it.

Sure Arrest doesn't work, and killing always ends up as a last resort, but there is no reason to jump straight to killing is the only punishment for criminals.

On the topic of buffs, I think I like the idea of long term buffs, specifically the Dancer from Star Wars Galaxies was one of the most effective methods I've ever seen in an mmo to encourage players t just sit back relax and socialize. Something like that to encourage downtime and socialization would be amazing to have.

Goblin Squad Member

How about we call them bonuses instead of buffs? Buff is kinda a WOW term, bonus is more of a D&D term.

Also, when I think of buff I think of Beafcake! BEAFCAKE!!

Goblin Squad Member

Eh, buffs is a general MMO term.

@Hark, does a long-term buffer role encourage you to sit around and socialize, or require you to? It would be an important distinction for me. How did the dancer do their business in SWG?

The issue I have with it is that long-term buffs would be something every group wants, but almost nobody wants a character who doesn't actually go out and do anything, so it's almost like a training tax for every group plus somebody's gonna have to bite the bullet and make an alt for buffing that they don't actually want, but that the group needs.

Goblin Squad Member

I didn't actually use dancers all that often, but I wasn't really a serious player either. I'd say they weren't required, but if you wanted to be playing high end pvp it was required, like any buff. It wasn't a huge issue because the buffs lasted a very long time. I think if you got them from good entertainers they lasted for hours at a time.

What actually happened was quite interesting though. Most successful dancers and musicians were actually full time players and the entertainer was their primary character. Part of earning money and advancing as an entertainer was being active engaged and social. Players actually had to use your services and give you tips to advance. Since using entertainers involved sitting around watching them players didn't use buff bots because they were boring.

As I recall good entertainers were some of the best payed players in the game because they everybody wanted them and they provided some of the best times that people had in the game.

Goblin Squad Member

I see; so receiving the buffs involves sitting nearby a performing dancer for an extended period, probably several minutes?

Seems we have something similar in the form of taverns which you need to stay in to recover Power. Hopefully we have people who are actively social in those too, and have a good time there.

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