Crafting / Gathering / Trade Questions


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Goblin Squad Member

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I'm fully expecting TBD to be the answer received for most of these question. I would imagine a lot of them will hinge largely on crowd-forging. That's fine, I'm just trying to dig up any info that is present to help in our discussions.

As a player, please do not answer any of these questions unless you include a linked citation of a developer statement or blog. However, feel free to ask your own.

Crafting

• What crafting skills are you anticipating being in at the start of EE?
• What crafting skills are you anticipating being in at the start of OE?
• Will all crafting be tied to structures such as woodworking shops or smithies?
• How much production capacity do you think an average settlement is likely to have relative to the demand it's members have for crafted goods?
• How will crafting facilities available in NPC settlements differ from those found in player settlements?

Gathering

• What resources are you anticipating being in at the start of EE?
• What resources are you anticipating being in at the start of OE?
• How scare will the most common materials be?
• What are the most scare resources we are likely to see in the EE and OE?
• How much control will settlements have over who can legally harvest what resources in their territory?
• How will resources found around NPC settlements differ from those found around player settlements?

Trade

• What kind of items will there be in EE and OE that traders will be likely to need to move long distances. (For instance localized resources)
• How long would it take a trader to pass from one corner of the map to the other?
• Other than backpacks and bags of holding will there be mules, carts, wagons etc. If so how soon do you anticipate them being implemented?
• Will player settlements be able to tax the exchange of goods at their markets?
• Will NPC settlements have markets? If so how will they differ from markets in player settlements?

Goblin Squad Member

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I have a question to add.

As you progress in gathering/crafting will there be a point where the common materials are not used expect for emergency gear and to give people something to do while they wait to craft the "good gear". for example in wow you have copper, that once you level past copper you dont ever use, as a result its a stepping stone that once you have stepped pasat it you never go back to it. I would love to see a system where there is a constant demand for common materials because you can make useful items with them, not because you need to craft 100 copper pants to get your badge to upgrade your skill.


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leperkhaun wrote:

I have a question to add.

As you progress in gathering/crafting will there be a point where the common materials are not used expect for emergency gear and to give people something to do while they wait to craft the "good gear". for example in wow you have copper, that once you level past copper you dont ever use, as a result its a stepping stone that once you have stepped pasat it you never go back to it. I would love to see a system where there is a constant demand for common materials because you can make useful items with them, not because you need to craft 100 copper pants to get your badge to upgrade your skill.

I would hope they adopt the eve model here whereby the base material (Tritanium) is pretty much used in all recipes in large quantities. As recipes become more advanced they add in higher end materials. This ensures that there is a constant demand for what can be gathered by the low end and casual gatherers

Goblin Squad Member

@steelwing

Thats what I would like, I think that at no point should there be stepping stone materials that once you are past you dont use them anymore.

Goblin Squad Member

@leperkhaun, though I am not a dev and don't have the dev quote on hand, that is something they've said they want to avoid (the problem of low-end mats becoming useless once they're made into items). I'll track the quote down and edit it in.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

Pax Shane Gifford wrote:
@leperkhaun, though I am not a dev and don't have the dev quote on hand, that is something they've said they want to avoid (the problem of low-end mats becoming useless once they're made into items). I'll track the quote down and edit it in.

I seem to remember something like this as well.

Goblin Squad Member

And...

Any thoughts on how "Craft magic arms and armor", or "wondrous items" will integrate into mundane crafting? I am sure there are many differing approaches as the TT rule are not exactly set in stone. This fairly low on the hit list I am sure, but in this context it cannot hurt to ask.

Goblin Squad Member

Well, Paizo died right as I tried to edit it in. Here's what I found; though I'm sure it's not the most direct quote for the subject, but I'm not a board wizard like some others. :P

Blog wrote:

Decay is not a coin drain. You won't find a NPC in town who will fix your item for you so we can have another way to take extra money out of the economy. If you want to repair your item, you'll have to take it back to the same kind of crafter that made it in the first place, he or she will need to know the recipe for that item, and repairing it will take a proportional fraction of the original materials for making the item. Repair may still be a good idea—mdash;if you have a really exceptional enchanted weapon, repair is probably simpler and cheaper than commissioning a new one—mdash;but it's very similar to just using the damaged item as a component toward making a new copy of that item. Either way, the crafters continue to have work.

We're currently deciding on how many deaths is reasonable before an item is totally destroyed (without any repair), but it will likely be in the single or low double-digits. Decay should provide much more work for crafters of major gear. Additionally, it may create an interesting secondary market for damaged gear sold at a reduced cost, so more frugal players can get access to powerful items for a specific task.

This shows they are aware of the problem of lower level crafting becoming useless, and I'm sure this is only part of the solution to that problem.

Goblin Squad Member

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leperkhaun wrote:

I have a question to add.

As you progress in gathering/crafting will there be a point where the common materials are not used expect for emergency gear and to give people something to do while they wait to craft the "good gear". for example in wow you have copper, that once you level past copper you dont ever use, as a result its a stepping stone that once you have stepped pasat it you never go back to it. I would love to see a system where there is a constant demand for common materials because you can make useful items with them, not because you need to craft 100 copper pants to get your badge to upgrade your skill.

We've had this discussion right after a crafting oriented blog and a bunch of people including me and GW share your aversion to obsolete crafting materials. Forgive my lack of sourcing it was many months ago but here's a summary of the most recent information I'm aware of:

Devs came right out and said they hate the idea of a material becoming "copper" and implied they want to avoid forcing you to craft 100 pants to level up; the alternates were TBD.

We can't do materials exactly like EVE because some stuff is just made of iron and others of wood or leather and trying to force copper into the recipe is unrealistic. Instead there are Quality Levels (QL) of a material like iron. Loosely translated, low QL iron(QL 1-100) makes teir 1 gear and consumables and is what you find near NPC settlements and other highly taxed resource areas. Mid grade iron is QL 101-200 for tier 2 gear and found in less used ie more dangerous areas. High end iron QL 201-300 is a requirement to make tier 3 gear and scarce to come by found deep in monster hexes and whatnot.

The amount of training you have determines the maximum quality of goods you can extract or craft. If you're only good enough that QL 120 is the cap to your abilities, and you smelt QL 240 iron ore, QL 120 iron bars come out because that's all you personally are good enough to make. If that node could be QL 180 ore, you only get QL 120 ore from it. So yes to get a QL 300 tier 3 sword requires a long chain of max ability gatherers, refiners, and craftsmen.

They have a goal to keep all levels of a material relevant for some useful in game product (ie tritanium to bistot) so craftsmen of all skill levels can have a market. Tweaking the spawn rates of materials to achieve that end is on the table.

Crafting gear is going to require minimum QL mats for each tier, and there was talk that if the QL exceeded minimum by a certain amount that product could get more bonuses of some sort. This tier 2 longsword with so and so keywords requires a minimum QL 120 steel, but if you made it with QL 180 steel you get that with a little higher stats or extra keyword, TBD but some sort of benefit over the base because of the higher quality material. The meaning of the difficulty involved with the QL 300 sword gains a whole new facet.

No word if threading bonus quality gear is equal, greater, or possibly less costly threading the minimum product. Likely TBD.

(Has any of that been updated from my version?)

Goblin Squad Member

Just so everyone knows, there was a post / thread roll back at least partially from yesterday.

Andius had asked "What would alignment shifts and reputation gains / losses look like involving crafting, gathering and trade?" (This is paraphrased from memory).

First I would like to place the process into its complete sequence as I see it. Some of these steps could be via the same party.

1. Harvesting
2. Transport
3. Refining (Consumer of Raw Materials)
4. Transport
5. Crafting (Consumer of Refined Materials)
6. Transport
7. Merchant (Consumer of Crafted Items placed on Consignment)
8. Transport
9. End Product Consumer

Alignment:

At every one of these stages, accept for #9, there could be a contract involved. We have been led to believe that fulfilling contracts is one way that we might be able to shift our alignment towards Lawful. Obviously, the failure to fulfil a contract would shift towards Chaotic. Any individual along this sequence needs to be sure he/she can fulfil the contract in the time period required. The Employer may decide to still accept the goods, but you would still take a lessened shift to alignment.

The Good vs. Evil access could be tied to the materials or goods being handled. Harvesting herbs might be innocuous by itself, but when combined by the crafter into a deadly poison, they pass on their evil intent to the crafter. That evil intent and shift will then continue down the sequence to include the End Product Consumer. The same system would hold true for "Good" aligned products (ie Healing Salves).

Reputation:

Reputation is a bit trickier, but I will first discuss a possible negative reputation system first.

"All that Glitters is not Gold"..

Taking short cuts or swapping out or omitting resources and producing a shoddy item that is not readily apparent to be shoddy.

We have been told that resources, refining and crafting will all have a QL of 1-300. The items crafted will take on the QL of the lowest QL used in the process (BTW, this does not make sense to me, it should be the average).

What if the Harvester, Refiner or Crafter is short an component or two, or has lesser QL materials and wants to blend them in without making the item readily appear as lesser QL than advertised. This could be done, but there is a chance of it being detected.

Detection:

So, you have this QL 285 sword but you notice that it degrades faster than the sword that you replaced with it (a QL 270 sword). You bring it to a crafter that you know and trust, and have him/her analyze it. They have a chance to detect it is shoddy, but they won't know at what stage it was made shoddy.

You don't want to outright accuse the crafter of wrongdoing, so you bring it to a refiner you know. She tells you the refined materials used were of the proper QL 285, but not enough of them or they had been replaced with lesser materials.

The Crafter is to blame for the shoddy item and takes a Reputation hit.

It is a more difficult to tie a merchant to this process, but if it were somehow detectable that the merchant frequently deals with the shoddy crafter, he may lose reputation to a lesser degree.

Reputation Gains:

Since dedicated harvesters, refiners, crafters and merchants do what they do so frequently, and are expected to perform their tasks at their best ability, reputation gain is not attached to the expected or ordinary.

In the Contract System, is where reputation gain can be had. Reputation up to a certain limit (transaction and daily) can be exchanged in lieu of coin payment (charity).

Merchants selling on market:

A merchant selling items at cost or at least below market average for that particular item, could receive a reputation gain with a certain maximum limit per transaction and per day. Again, exchanging coin for reputation as a form of charity.

How does GW avoid Gaming the System:

Although players may not know all of the affiliations a player has to characters, and characters have to other characters, GW must know.

Any transaction or interaction along the above sequence between "associated" parties of the same player are Alignment or Reputation Neutral, except for passing off shoddy goods. As a matter of fact, passing off shoddy goods to a company or settlement member should carry much higher penalties.

There you have my 2 cents...

Goblin Squad Member

honestly I dont think that should happen. However I think that IF you wanted alignment to be part of the crafting system it should be ONLY related to what is crafted, not harvesting.

So take three crafters and they each make a sword. Crafter 1 puts the bleed keyword on it, alignment not affected. Crafter 2 puts the unholy keyword on it, his alignment shifts towards evil. Crafter 3 puts the holy keyword on it and his alignment shifts more towards good. In addition in order to create those items you could require that the crafter already be of that alignment. So if you want to make a holy avenger you better be at near max LG alignments. This could be for other things also, like poison, creating that could shift towards evil.

I dont agree that healing items are automatically good aligned as in the game healing spells are not aligned along the good/evil axis they are conjurations with the healing subtype.

I also do not like the idea of passing shoddy goods. I can see its place in the game (pre war you set up a settlement with all shoddy good by bribing the merchants) but I dont think its worth it. The end result is that it will lower the amount of trade as settlements will just craft their own gear so they dont end up with subpar gear.

Goblin Squad Member

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I don't understand why Reputation needs any association with crafting (aside from maybe frequent contract breaking)

Goblin Squad Member

Lifedragn wrote:

I don't understand why Reputation needs any association with crafting (aside from maybe frequent contract breaking)

Agree with this. The only thing I can think of is gaining reputation for fulfilling a contract and losing rep for breaking a contract. Then you also have the Lawful and Chaos angle too.

Goblin Squad Member

Lifedragn wrote:

I don't understand why Reputation needs any association with crafting (aside from maybe frequent contract breaking)

Andius had asked the question, so it was replied to. For those that missed it, He posted it yesterday but it got wiped with the rollback.

However, I would like to add that Reputation loss should not only be connected to one aspect of the game (PvP). Not unless the only way to gain reputation is exclusive through PvP as well.

Goblin Squad Member

My question was about alignment, not reputation. I agree that reputation loss for crafting/gathering/trading type actions makes no sense unless those actions are toxic. I can't think of any such toxic action that the game will be able to automatically pick up atm.


Andius wrote:
My question was about alignment, not reputation. I agree that reputation loss for crafting/gathering/trading type actions makes no sense unless those actions are toxic. I can't think of any such toxic action that the game will be able to automatically pick up atm.

Not saying it is a good idea but if you are gathering in a foreign settlements area that has forbidden foreigners to do so that could be a source of alignment and or rep hit. I would think a chaos hit might be in order from breaking the law and the offended settlement may well think less of you for stealing their ore

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Steelwing wrote:
Andius wrote:
My question was about alignment, not reputation. I agree that reputation loss for crafting/gathering/trading type actions makes no sense unless those actions are toxic. I can't think of any such toxic action that the game will be able to automatically pick up atm.
Not saying it is a good idea but if you are gathering in a foreign settlements area that has forbidden foreigners to do so that could be a source of alignment and or rep hit. I would think a chaos hit might be in order from breaking the law and the offended settlement may well think less of you for stealing their ore

I could see it definitely being Chaotic/Criminal.

Goblin Squad Member

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I'd prefer not to derail this topic with a reputation debate but wouldn't like to see reputation hits applied to any behavior which is always legitimate and seldomly toxic. Alignment hits make sense in a lot of places where reputation does not.


Andius wrote:
I'd prefer not to derail this topic with a reputation debate but wouldn't like to see reputation hits applied to any behavior which is always legitimate and seldomly toxic. Alignment hits make sense in a lot of places where reputation does not.

I was merely suggesting something that might get rep/alignment hits on the craft side....not particularly sold on it was just throwing it out as a possibility if you really wanted something

Goblin Squad Member

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Lifedragn wrote:

I don't understand why Reputation needs any association with crafting (aside from maybe frequent contract breaking)

I could see certain keywords having an alignment to them. Perhaps crafting an "Assassin's Shiv [of Vampirism], [of Necrotic Undying], [of Evil], [of Chaos]", should give a few alignment hits when crafted.

Goblin Squad Member

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KitNyx wrote:
Lifedragn wrote:

I don't understand why Reputation needs any association with crafting (aside from maybe frequent contract breaking)

I could see certain keywords having an alignment to them. Perhaps crafting an "Assassin's Shiv [of Vampirism], [of Necrotic Undying], [of Evil], [of Chaos]", should give a few alignment hits when crafted.

Right but only effecting chaos/evil alignment. Not reputation. Reputation should only pertain to potentially toxic behaviors.

Goblin Squad Member

Lifedragn wrote:

I don't understand why Reputation needs any association with crafting (aside from maybe frequent contract breaking)

In what way could you break a crafting contract?

Would a crafter even take a contract that he / she could not easily fulfil?

They might only take contracts that they already have the requested items on hand. This way they would grind both Lawful and Reputation gains.

I think that my idea for crafting shoddy items is workable. Many of us have probably heard stories of contractors or subcontractors that have taken short cuts or used lesser materials and produced shoddy work. Often times you never even know it, until someone else comes in to repair it, and they point out the short cuts.

There is nothing in my suggestion that forces the crafter to make that choice. But, if they do make that choice it apparently was a good trade off at the time.

Lets try to discard the use of the word "toxic" for a moment and use the term "unethical". Wouldn't an unethical act be deserving of a reputation loss, even if it is based on Crafting, Gathering or Trading?

Goblin Squad Member

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@Bludd, so far I don't think GW has put in a system whereby if you use the system you lose reputation. This, I believe, is because they actually want you to use the systems they design, so that the only reputation-negative actions involve ignoring their systems and just attacking people.

What would be the crafting equivalent of ignoring the system and just attacking people? I don't know, which is why so far I haven't proposed any crafting-centric reputation-negative actions.

For merchant types, drastic undercutting in local auction houses might incur reputation hits (I'm talking massive losses in order to price your goods at that level); this seems to me like ignoring the systems in place to quickly make a little coin at the expense of people trying to make a profit through trading. Such a system would need to be carefully designed to avoid punishing people who are legitimately able to price their good much lower than the competition though.

Goblin Squad Member

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No. Wars, SADs, assasinations, raiding etc. will allow for plenty of behavior that is unethical. The difference is it it creating meaningful content that makes it worthwhile to include, or is it doing more damage than any content it creates us worth... in other words is it toxic? If it is not toxic then it doesn't deserve a rep hit, if it is toxic then why would we create a special mechanic just to see it put into the game?

Your mechanic is interesting in that it would really create a good purpose for appraisal type skills. But I could see it delolving into a situation where only people with high appraise would buy items from unknown traders.

Basically a "Nobody does X" situation.

Goblin Squad Member

It is not a bad opener Bluddwolf, but almost seems to be in the realm of "purposely scamming" and that is definitely not something they are very accepting of.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:


Your mechanic is interesting in that it would really create a good purpose for appraisal type skills. But I could see it devolving into a situation where only people with high appraise would buy items from unknown traders.

Basically a "Nobody does X" situation.

Is the systems GW (especially Ryan) putting in place give us any indication that we should be buying from unknown traders and on top of that, trusting them at the same time?

Local markets and NBSI policies for monopolizing gathering in settlement controlled hexes is going to make it more than likely that most of the items for sale in your local market, were locally made.

A settlement's own crafters would look upon a foreign merchant, entering their settlement, with "Murderous Intent".

If I were a crafter or a trader, I would consider hiring an Assassin to take care of such an interloper in "MY" market place.

I think some of you maybe underestimating the lengths and depths that crafters and traders will go to protect their turf. Settlements would be fools not to butcher gatherers in their settlement controlled hexes, that are not their own citizens, renters or allies.

Goblin Squad Member

So Bludd, where would your system fit into this picture of crafters with clearly defined turf? I think passing off lower quality good to your own people as higher end stuff would be a poor choice.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Shane Gifford wrote:
So Bludd, where would your system fit into this picture of crafters with clearly defined turf? I think passing off lower quality good to your own people as higher end stuff would be a poor choice.

It would be indeed, and I even said that it should incur a greater penalty if they got caught. The unscrupulous crafters would do two things:

1. They would first assume they won't get caught. This is human nature in the unethical mind.

2. They would sell their shoddy items to foreigners passing through.

I could also imagine a crafter taking on this risk as a matter of roleplaying. This character might not be the player's main or DT, but an alt and one not very highly trained to begin with.

Goblin Squad Member

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Seems like it would be very niche indeed; I don't see many instances where someone would do this for an appreciable amount of time instead of just taking as much as they can from company/settlement banks and running. If they are setting out to scam their settlement members or their allies I would assume they'd go with something quick and dirty instead of exposing themselves for a very long period of time.

I would think such a system wouldn't be used by many people at all without the knowledge of their settlement; it's not that making the poor-quality items in itself is a terrible thing, but the willingness to lie to your settlement members or allies means that you aren't likely to be kept around when you're found out (or, when the allies find out, you aren't likely to have business for very long as word spreads). If use of the skill became suddenly widespread that just means each major group has a training tax to pay in getting a master appraiser.

Continuing my attempt at a PvP metaphor, this mostly seems to be analogous to robbing blues while in disguise, imo. A traitorous action which, though it doesn't harm the settlement significantly on its own, would definitely get you kicked out once you're found out. I don't think GW are in favor of mechanics whose most likely use is in deceiving allies.

Goblin Squad Member

honestly i dont think you should have to appraise anything. i understand that in TT its different, but for an MMO I dont think it adds anything. You should immediately be able to tell what each item does and its stats.

undercutting other merchants should not be meet with rep hits. thats playing the market. The other merchants have several avenues to deal with such a person.

They could get together, but all the undercutting goods at low price and resell at a higher price if there are auction houses. If there are not and that undercutting merchant making deals with your buyers then you punish that merchant. You tip off some bandits that XX merchant has a weekly delivery of such and such goods to this and that settlement. You hire some low rep CE folks to teach that buy a lesson. Make sure the goods he promises cannot get to the buyer and you ruin his ACTUAL reputation. Hire an assassin to kill the guy a couple of time. If you are bigger undercut him and drive him out of the market.

The only reason a merchant doing merchant things should take rep hits (or gains really) would be through a contract system. Crafter x gets a contract to craft (not buy and provide but actually craft) 5 platemails, he gains rep if he does it he loses rep if he doesnt. A merchant has a contract to deliver 10 wands from settlement A to settlement C, if he makes it he gains rep if he doesnt he loses rep.

Goblin Squad Member

I have to agree, if the system allows for sub par goods to be produced the only person that can be responsible is the... Wait who? Chances are crafters will need refined materials that come from outside your hex, if that is not the case then your merchants will be looking to sell, or trade outside for goods they cannot get from crafters in your hex. If all that fails they will be looking to the settlement to make agreements that will allow the goods they have in excess to be sold to friendly settlement merchants. Sorry is swerved off target on that last bit but...

People keep saying merchants but the supply chain is pretty long.

The list earlyer:

Merchants
Crafters
Refiners
Harvesters

With Teamsters holding the links together.

All that in mind sub par goods from your own crafter's is not an impossibility. Who should be responsible for vetting every component? I would say the fault has to lay somewhere and if the sub par gear is possible that part of the chain needs to be replaced.

I would almost rather the was no such thing but it does add depth to the crafter side.

I guess it reaches a point that even if you cannot harvest a given material at home someone in you settlement should have the skills to be able to judge its quality raw, or refined.

I like it.

Goblin Squad Member

Hmmm, good points; if you can just buy his silly cheap goods and resell them for profit there should be no problem. I was just thinking about actions which could potentially greatly disrupt a merchant's playstyle in the same way a random attack could disrupt a PvEr or gatherer's playstyle. An action which should still be a viable and valid tactic (and thus merely result in a rep loss instead of being forbidden) but something that GW would likely want to steer people away from doing on an everyday basis.

My impression is that a thriving market of carefully calculated profits seems like a better setup than a titanic merchant who just massively undercuts everybody else out of business, which is why I suggested rep hits for a merchant who throws his weight around a little too much (just like a Pvper who throws his weight around too much and attacks targets outside the systems). It's just the basic idea of course, and would need to be adjusted; still, i'm all ears for other ideas. :)

Goblin Squad Member

One other thought crafter or merchants placing buy order should be able to set a quality range if not a minimum. They should not have to take anything that was delivered by chance.

Prices should be determined by the market as well as quality.

Goblin Squad Member

in my opinion if a titanic merchant can control such a large part of the market i would say thats fair play by them and its up to the players to find a way to break that hold.

Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite wrote:
It is not a bad opener Bluddwolf, but almost seems to be in the realm of "purposely scamming" and that is definitely not something they are very accepting of.

Of course it is purposeful scamming, that is why it runs the risk of reputation loss. PFO is set in the River Kingdoms, which is not a place of Songbirds and Lollipops.

River Kingdoms Guide" wrote:
With its dozens of tributary rivers dividing the region into countless small territories, it became a natural place for outcasts,rebels, and petty tyrants to stake claims and declare themselves rulers of whatever land they could grab and hold.

Of the Deities Unique to River Kingdoms:

Gyronna = CE; Hanspur = CN

The Major Towns:

1 x LG
0 x NG
0 x CG
3 x LN
4 x TN
7 x CN
0 x LE
1 x NE
0 x CE

The Authority Figures:

1 x LG
6 x NG
1 x CG
9 x LN
17 x TN
5 x CN
3 x LE
6 x NE
3 x CE

Of the 16 towns, only 4 are lawful and might have strict laws vs. scamming.

Goblin Squad Member

leperkhaun wrote:
in my opinion if a titanic merchant can control such a large part of the market i would say thats fair play by them and its up to the players to find a way to break that hold.

I feel like the same could be said of someone who kills everybody willy nilly, if there weren't reputation consequences for that. Like you're saying if the developers allow someone to run around in T3 gear and kill newer players willy nilly then that should be considered fair play and it's up to the players to do something to stop him, not the reputation system (not saying you believe any of this, but this is merely trying to draw parallels between the merchant system and PvP for a guide on what should take rep hits).

But I feel that just like in PvP, if the well established players use bully tactics to force everybody away it should have repercussions. Maybe it's merely my inexperience with the different methods of attacking each other in the market which prevents me from seeing something else which would be a more appropriate stand-in for wanton PvP'ing.

Goblin Squad Member

I dont really agree. a merchant isnt who gets a large market share could just be really good at the game. i think a better way to look at it would be seeing a settlement with the highest DI and able to give their people the top training and T3 gear, where your settlement cannot do that then yell that its unfair because they have something you dont.

You have an option at this point. You can join a group powerful enough to face off those guys, start your own group and grow powerful enough to face those guys, join those guys, or stay by yourself.

Honestly i think that in this game forcing people to rely on other people is a feature and its something people need to learn.

I also think that there is a difference between someone going to NPC settlements to kill noobs for the lulz and someone who was worked hard to establish themselves in the game.

Want to merchant? learn how to do it. Dont expect other people to treat you nice when you come walking in trying to take a cut of their profit. Just because someone else has what you dont doesnt mean the game is unfair, it means that you now have a goal.

Goblin Squad Member

I agree with the sentiment. However, the topic was rep-negative actions a merchant or crafter could use; it seems you'd rather that crafters and merchants not have rep-negative actions, so that they stay max rep for their entire character life? I personally see a space here where we can come up with ways to make your rep score just as meaningful for a merchant or crafter as it is for a PvPer, but I'm at a loss for specific ways to do that. I do see now that my first attempt at such a mechanic, whereby players are punished for excessive undercutting, might be more trouble than it's worth.

Goblin Squad Member

@pax

Thats exactly it. I honestly dont see how a merchant playing the market could possibly be a negative rep action. As a result it should not be for the reasons in my above post.

in general Yes if a merchant is doing merchant things there is no reason why his rep wouldnt be max. To me giving a merchant negative rep for playing the market will is like giving large high DI settlements negative rep for being a large high DI settlement.

However things where people could negatively rep a merchant where I think it would be acceptable would be: changing an agreed upon price (this is not the same as asking 2x market value for an item, thats fine, this is agreeing to see an item for 100 gold, then when he shows up with the items he goes...im changing that to 200 gold), no delivering goods as promised, not delivering the correct goods (say T2 equipment instead of T3).

I also fully expect the gathering/crafting/settlement roles to get and maintain high rep unless there are some really weird things going on. the reason is that there are some functions where it simply does not make sense to involve rep.

Telling merchants that "go be a merchant but dont be good at it otherwise the whiners will neg rep you out of your settlement" is a bad thing.

At the same time I dont really think rep should be passive, but thats a different post.

Goblin Squad Member

All players will gain Reputation with being logged on and not performing actions that cost reputation. Those that do not engage in much "PVP" will likely pile it up. Some of those that DO engage in "PVP" will also pile it up.

Non combat PVP players can lose rep through failed contracts? I believe that is right. The most convenient way to exchange bulk goods, from one bank vault to another, should be through contracts, including having to move them. Perhaps the penalty for failing contracts should be "medium" and the gain for completing should be very small or non existent.

Harvesters, teamsters, guards, traveling merchants will all need some reputation pool for Death Curses and, IMO, assassination contracts. There could also be ways for GM applied penalties for any provable "shady play' that falls within those spheres.

Now why should crafters, merchants, harvesters, etc... have more potential for losing reputation then those that engage in PVP that is covered as "sanctioned"?

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Andius wrote:

I'm fully expecting TBD to be the answer received for most of these question. I would imagine a lot of them will hinge largely on crowd-forging. That's fine, I'm just trying to dig up any info that is present to help in our discussions.

As a player, please do not answer any of these questions unless you include a linked citation of a developer statement or blog. However, feel free to ask your own.

Crafting

• What crafting skills are you anticipating being in at the start of EE?

TBD. We should be getting some implementation done on crafting soon, which will give me more visibility about what's realistic for EE.

Quote:
• What crafting skills are you anticipating being in at the start of OE?
    At the risk of spoiling something that would make a good blog post (so I'll just give you the names and let you speculate what they do exactly :) ):
  • Alchemist
  • Armorsmith
  • Artificer
  • Bowyer
  • Cook
  • Enchanter
  • Engineer
  • Iconographer
  • Jeweler
  • Leatherworker
  • Tailor
  • Weaponsmith

Also, Architect, Carpenter, and Stonemason are involved in settlement building, but have a different system than the craft skills for making usable items.

Those lists tend to fluctuate periodically as we realize we need a new item type (e.g., a few got added or changed around when we made Implements), so that list may change some by the next time you see it.

Quote:
• Will all crafting be tied to structures such as woodworking shops or smithies?

Yes. You'll hopefully be able to see your current crafting queue progress from anywhere (so you know when to go home and pick it up or start a new batch), but it's directly associated with a building to start and finish.

Quote:
• How much production capacity do you think an average settlement is likely to have relative to the demand it's members have for crafted goods?

TBD.

Quote:
• How will crafting facilities available in NPC settlements differ from those found in player settlements?

TBD. They will probably be fine for Tier 1 stuff, but are likely to be limited in what higher Tier things can be crafted there, and be slower than settlement facilities even for stuff you can do there.

Quote:

Gathering

• What resources are you anticipating being in at the start of EE?

TBD based on what craft skills are implemented by then.

Quote:
• What resources are you anticipating being in at the start of OE?

Our main classifications of material types are:

  • Ore
  • Log
  • Chemical
  • Leather
  • Cloth
  • Essence
  • Gem

I'll save the variations of each of those for a blog post ;) .

Quote:
• How scarce will the most common materials be?

TBD. Right now, the crafting system is set up at a fairly low granularity. For example, you only need a few pieces of ore to make a weapon. So you're liable to get resources fairly slowly, but you don't need many of them to make something. Actual frequency will be tweaked based on whatever feels like the right speed for new crafted goods entering the economy based on the player population.

Quote:
• What are the most scare resources we are likely to see in the EE and OE?

Based on our current frequency weighting, in order of most to least common:

  • Chemical
  • Essence
  • Log
  • Ore
  • Leather
  • Cloth
  • Gem

Of course, that's not super helpful until you know how many of each you need to make things :) . Chemicals are the most common because they're intended primarily for consumables, which we expect people to make far more of than permanent goods. Essences are second most common because they're basically the special magical sauce that you need to put into pretty much anything that's magical.

Quote:
• How much control will settlements have over who can legally harvest what resources in their territory?

TBD.

Quote:
• How will resources found around NPC settlements differ from those found around player settlements?

They will likely be Tier 1 for the most part, while non-NPC hexes can also have Tier 2. (Tier 3 generally only comes from monster hexes.)

Quote:

Trade

• What kind of items will there be in EE and OE that traders will be likely to need to move long distances. (For instance localized resources)

All components are region-based. For example, ores don't spawn at all as harvest nodes in plains hexes (though metal scraps may drop from creatures you can fight in them). So it's possible that every component in the game may need to move long distances. Our goal is to try to prevent any settlement from being totally self-sufficient with just what it can get from its nearby environment.

Quote:
• How long would it take a trader to pass from one corner of the map to the other?

TBD based on final adjustments of normal speed, fast travel, and caravans. Potentially hours, particularly for large loads.

Quote:
• Other than backpacks and bags of holding will there be mules, carts, wagons etc. If so how soon do you anticipate them being implemented?

Yes. As early as possible; addition of the various stages of caravan (from mules up to full on wagon trains) will likely be a crowdforged prioritization in EE (and into OE if there are stages that remain). The caravan system is pretty important for trade, so it's just a question of whether there are systems that are more important to get in early in EE.

Quote:
• Will player settlements be able to tax the exchange of goods at their markets?

Yes. You can charge a market fee per transaction (TBD whether it's flat or a percentage), and we expect market competition between settlements based on how big of a cut they take.

Quote:
• Will NPC settlements have markets? If so how will they differ from markets in player settlements?

Yes, but one of the reasons why the markets in NPC towns won't necessarily become the default trade hubs is that we expect to set their market fees fairly high, to give settlement markets a competitive advantage. They may also be more strongly limited on how many things you can list at once and what kinds of things you can list, but that's all TBD.

Goblin Squad Member

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@ Stephen Cheney

Thanks so much Stephen! That all looks pretty cool. That is an intriguing skills list.

"Iconographer" <---Excellent!

Goblin Squad Member

Iconographer

woot!

Goblinworks Game Designer

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leperkhaun wrote:
As you progress in gathering/crafting will there be a point where the common materials are not used expect for emergency gear and to give people something to do while they wait to craft the "good gear".

We expect to be more similar to EVE in that lower Tier stuff is required as part of the recipe for higher-Tier goods. This is typically in the refining stage; for example, an Adamantine Ingot (Tier 3 metal) still requires a bunch of the components used to make Tier 1 and Tier 2 ingots.

Unlike EVE, we didn't have the luxury of making up a bunch of words for metals and making items that players have no real-world reference for, so I worry about weighing the consistency of the system against peoples' simulation concerns. For example, it's hard to justify requiring a handful of Onyxes and Jets (tier 1 and 2 gems) to add to a Black Opal (tier 3 gem) to make a Jewel, if we're going for some degree of realism in the recipes. I expect the crafting system to potentially shift a good deal during EE as players give feedback over whether they prize recipes that are more realistic (and, thus, intuitive), or whether they're happier to have recipes that are less realistic but more mathematically consistent.

Fortunately, we do have magic to fall back on to patch some of the mathematical consistency (e.g., since it's not good simulation to use lower-tier gemstones to make higher-tier ones, we use lower tier gems as a component in higher-tier refined essences, assuming you're powdering them and using them as magical reagents).

Vwoom wrote:
Any thoughts on how "Craft magic arms and armor", or "wondrous items" will integrate into mundane crafting? I am sure there are many differing approaches as the TT rule are not exactly set in stone. This fairly low on the hit list I am sure, but in this context it cannot hurt to ask.

Crafting is all based on the skills, there aren't any feats required to craft magic like in tabletop (though there might be Expert feats that give you a bonus to crafting certain things while they're slotted). The Enchanter skill is used to add enchantments to gear, Artificer and Iconographer produce almost entirely things that could be considered magic items in tabletop, and even the more mundane crafted items are a little magical by Tier 3, even before they're Enchanted.

Proxima Sin wrote:
(Has any of that been updated from my version?)

Yes. Quality Level is now something the refiner chooses (or, more accurately, the refiner chooses how many upgrades to put into a refined component, and that determines its final QL). We moved to Quality being a system that works mostly in the background: higher Quality changes what color the name of an item is (for rarity display purposes) and refining something at higher Quality takes longer.

But you'll ultimately see something like "Jewel +2" and the fact that it's Quality is 253 really only matters in how hard it was to refine it at +2 instead of +0 or +1, and that its name will be colored Orange (instead of Blue or Red).

Even low Tier items can have a pretty high Quality rating if they're refined at a high +, but higher Quality will be much more common on higher Tier items.

I probably should just write another crafting blog sometime soon once I'm sure there aren't going to be any surprises in implementing the systems :) .

Andius wrote:
(rolled back question about alignment of some kind?)

Most crafting shouldn't have any effect on alignment. There may be certain factional recipes that are theoretically aligned, but you'll probably have to already be that faction's alignment to still be a member and be able to craft them, so there's no specific need for an alignment shift.

The exception is using slave labor in your harvesting kits (and possibly in your crafting facility? TBD), which makes you Heinous and thus take an Evil shift.

Theoretically there might also be a law in a particular settlement against something you might do in gathering or crafting, in which case you'd get Criminal and thus a Chaotic shift. But the limits of what you can do with laws on that front is TBD.

-----

Alright, I was trying to skim the digressions and didn't notice any more questions for me, but I may have missed something. So please repeat your question if I didn't get to you :) .

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks a lot for answering these. I'm sure we'll have enough info for a few new topics after we've had a chance to digest all this.

Goblin Squad Member

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Stephen Cheney wrote:
I expect the crafting system to potentially shift a good deal during EE as players give feedback over whether they prize recipes that are more realistic (and, thus, intuitive), or whether they're happier to have recipes that are less realistic but more mathematically consistent.

Count me in the mathematically consistent camp.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm sure we will end up with the mathematically consistent route and have magic or some other mechanic to explain why that happens.

CEO, Goblinworks

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The economy of this game has been one of my primary focuses from the day Paizo greenlit the project. We've been spending most of our time on the combat systems because they require the longest runway and have the biggest balancing challenges but once we are really comfortable with combat I believe we'll actually be spending more time on economic matters than fighting matters.

Goblin Squad Member

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I am also for the mathematically consistent camp. As much as I would like something closer to TT, the fact of the matter is that to me its more important to have solid mechanics that work in an MMO rather than adhering strictly to the source material.

For things like gems, Perhaps you can use an opal OR you can take 100 somethingelses refine those with magic and get a refined magic gem that would act like an opal?

For alignment I would like to see some things like good/evil/law/chaotic aligned gear require the crafter to have that alignment.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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I prefer mathematically consistent as well, even if that means that higher-level gem settings all need several lesser gemstones in the setting.

Also of note is that some minerals (e.g. hematite, malachite) are both semiprecious gemstones and metal ores. I could see many semiprecious gems being used in the production of exotic alloys, because magic.

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