Nathanael, please clarify: on whose behalf are you speaking, exactly? I don't see eye to eye with the Paizo mods on every single issue, but negligence is one thing I won't accuse them of.
I'm not sure what you're asking. I flagged a post where the poster used a homophobic/gay slur; a word which I personally and others I know find to be incredibly offensive and a moderator commented the thread but let the slur stand.
Not sure what else there is to say, or on whose behalf I need to be speaking to be offended by hate language and to find it frustrating that its tolerated here?
Wel, I have yet to see it tolerated here. Please link to this thread the post you felt necessary to flag.
Wel, I have yet to see it tolerated here. Please link to this thread the post you felt necessary to flag.
I too wish to see the offending post. I am surprised.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qoa2?Pathfinder-Classes-Full-BAB-Tier-4#23
I'm sorry, I read maybe twelve and a half posts down that thread from your link, and I still can't find it.
Its in the first post on that link at the bottom. "is for slurs". Its a pretty offensive way to say something.
Ok I see the post, but I don't believe it was used in such a manner that it required deleting. I believe it was in response to it would have been uncalled for, but as this it's the internet tome is hard to get from toneless text.
Ok I see the post, but I don't believe it was used in such a manner that it required deleting. I believe it was in response to it would have been uncalled for, but as this it's the internet tome is hard to get from toneless text.
Well if I said "that's for n-words" in that exact context would it be worth deleting? Because that's effectively the exact same thing?
I think that's the point-- the entire nerd/gaming community can be pretty tone deaf on this whole subject and using gender identification terms derisively regardless of the possible "tone" shouldn't really be acceptable.
I dunno, it's been my experience that jokes lighten the mood and rarely threadjack things. Oh well.
Oh god what if my post is about to be deleted and this version of my identity will go with it I don't want to di
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I dunno, it's been my experience that jokes lighten the mood and rarely threadjack things. Oh well.
Oh god what if my post is about to be deleted and this version of my identity will go with it I don't want to di
If your "jokes" are in the vein of trying to paint one side as unreasonable, stupid or plain "wrong for all to see", those jokes can (and often should) be taken as trolling.
Guys, I really don't want to antagonize anyone here, but in the last few days, I think Nathanael is just being contrary for the heck of it. First the psionics thread, then the wild shape thread and now this.
If this post is not okay, I'm okay with its deletion, btw.
Guys, I really don't want to antagonize anyone here, but in the last few days, I think Nathanael is just being contrary for the heck of it. First the psionics thread, then the wild shape thread and now this.
If this post is not okay, I'm okay with its deletion, btw.
I don't do anything "just for the heck of it".
I express my opinions in discussions asking for opinions about things (for instance a thread where an OP asked if psionics was OP/would you use or where the OP asked about wild shape.)
It's not my fault that if my opinion is different from the general consensus of these boards this immediate reaction is for multiple people to simply reply "lol you're stupid, you must be smoking crack, ect"
And the fact that I find a particular word starting with Q to be incredibly offensive isn't simply being contrary either. Slurs and hate speech of any kind should not be tolerated in any context, whether referring to someones gender identification, race, ethnicity, or religion.
If you honestly believe otherwise than that, I think you're the one who is being contrary for the heck of it.
Also, having to defend why I find a slur to be offensive and being told I don't actually feel that way is pretty frustrating beyond everything else.
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Context - queer as it may have been - of the word in question in that posting does not suggest that it was meant as an insult (others were, though).
It does have an alternative meaning.
Nathanael: After reading the post in question, it seems to me that the poster is saying "there are many valid reason for <this argument>" and then they immediately follow it up with purposefully invalid and childish ones to prove their point.
In essence, they are mocking the mentality that would say "this is for <insert slur of choice here>" as being an invalid argument.
Also, there are a number of QUILTBAG members of these boards who use the word "queer" as clinical self-descriptor to communicate how they identify. Indeed, I have a few friends where I live who do the same (i.e. it's not a phenomenon relegated to these boards). As Fabius points out, it's the context that's key.
In the LGBT thread, it's come up quite often that queer is a prefered term.
Regardless saying something is "for queers" as the equivalent of "bad" is definitely using it in a derogatory manner.
Agreed. And in the context of the post NL linked to, I read it pretty clearly as the poster mocking the sort of mentality that would stoop to such an argument.
In otherwords, while such an example may have been in bad taste, it was for an illustrative point — they were not themselves being derogatory. Rather, they were making fun of people who use such derogatory terms in support of their arguments.
I guess the take-away is that you can't always anticipate how other people may misinterpret you over a medium lacking both body-language and vocal intonation...
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I find these boards typically to be incredibly rude, hostile, full of people who demean others, littered with offensive slurs (This or that is "for queer" which was allowed to stand even after a moderator looked at the thread).
I've greatly cut back my actual money expenditure on this game since I started coming to the boards; its a pretty hostile environment to be perfectly honest.
Ya know...I have never really understood why someone would let the attitudes of anonymous posters on the internet determine how much money they spend on a game. If you had to play with them in real life, sure.
Personally I try not to spend much time in certain types of threads, as anything to do with Monk/rogue/fighter/martial-caster disparity is going to eventually generate a substantial amount of hostility.
On the other hand, if this is in regards to the Psionics thread, I should point out that you were about as equally hostile in posts as the people you were responding too. In a thread with a lot of Psionics fans, typing this:
I am saying don't use psionics. That guy at the end of the table with the gleam in his eye has it there for a reason, and it is not because its a balanced system, its because he has found something he wants to exploit.
Insulting those who like Psionics as munchkins only interested in the breaking the system is a great way to tick off all the other posters. JUST SAYING.
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I find these boards typically to be incredibly rude, hostile, full of people who demean others, littered with offensive slurs (This or that is "for queer" which was allowed to stand even after a moderator looked at the thread).
I've greatly cut back my actual money expenditure on this game since I started coming to the boards; its a pretty hostile environment to be perfectly honest.
In the future, if you think we've missed something or you spot a mistake, please let us know by emailing webmaster@paizo.com.
In the LGBT thread, it's come up quite often that queer is a prefered term.Most of the fellows at my gaming table are homosexual, and they frequently use the 'q-word' as a self-identifier.
Derogatory terms, when used by those the terms are supposed to insult, take on a different context. It is one thing if gay men called each other queer, f++, queen, and address each other as she or her, but if someone else does it, it can easily become (and is often intended to be) a slur.
I dunno, it's been my experience that jokes lighten the mood and rarely threadjack things. Oh well.
Oh god what if my post is about to be deleted and this version of my identity will go with it I don't want to di
LOL I'm with you, KC -- but then again my (obvious joke) post was also deleted.
Silly.
In the LGBT thread, it's come up quite often that queer is a prefered term.Most of the fellows at my gaming table are homosexual, and they frequently use the 'q-word' as a self-identifier.Derogatory terms, when used by those the terms are supposed to insult, take on a different context. It is one thing if gay men called each other queer, f+@, queen, and address each other as she or her, but if someone else does it, it can easily become (and is often intended to be) a slur.
BUT! One must also take into consideration the feelings of the LISTENER, eh? I mean, if one of my Cajun cousins called me a "Coonass", and I took offense at the term, shouldn't I have my feelings on the matter taken into consideration? regardless of what most, many, or some other Cajuns might think of the term as used by Cajuns to refer to other Cajuns?
In the LGBT thread, it's come up quite often that queer is a prefered term.It's also come up, perhaps less often, that people find it offensive.
Regardless saying something is "for queers" as the equivalent of "bad" is definitely using it in a derogatory manner.
ONE POINT FOR RAVENCLAW!!!
If your "jokes" are in the vein of trying to paint one side as unreasonable, stupid or plain "wrong for all to see", those jokes can (and often should) be taken as trolling.I dunno, it's been my experience that jokes lighten the mood and rarely threadjack things. Oh well.
Oh god what if my post is about to be deleted and this version of my identity will go with it I don't want to di
Don't worry, I was just making a joke about double posting. I really don't lean either way on this issue and would rather not get into it. :P
Insulting those who like Psionics as munchkins only interested in the breaking the system is a great way to tick off all the other posters. JUST SAYING.
Psionics lovers are not a recognized minority group entitled to preferential treatment when it comes to caring about their feelings.
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Guys, I really don't want to antagonize anyone here, but in the last few days, I think Nathanael is just being contrary for the heck of it. First the psionics thread, then the wild shape thread and now this.
If this post is not okay, I'm okay with its deletion, btw.
I'm OK with this post of yours, but I'm also OK with your being OK with its deletion. If that's OK with everyone.
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Guys, stop being so inflammatory. Leave the poor psionics lovers alone and go back to talking about less contentious topics, like social justice and bigotry.
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http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qoa2?Pathfinder-Classes-Full-BAB-Tier-4#23
To clarify, this is actually a reference to something. It's a memetic statement/slogan (admittedly from a long time ago) used initially the Super Smash Bros. community in an attempt to prevent an "official" tier list from being formed.
It was not an attempt to insult any person or group, I just found it funny that the argument was essentially the same argument being made ("I find this class fun, even if you think it is underpowered. We don't need a tier list for this game.") which was commonly summed up for a while as "tiers are for queers" (before the "tires don exits" thing came up, which would be the second bit I referenced.).
Neither, obviously, spread as far as I thought they did (it's a well known reference among most video game communities, but I often forget this is not one of those), so the joke kinda falls flat. Especially since some people found it offensive.
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Guys, I really don't want to antagonize anyone here, but in the last few days, I think Nathanael is just being contrary for the heck of it. First the psionics thread, then the wild shape thread and now this.
If this post is not okay, I'm okay with its deletion, btw.
He's been attacked pretty savagely by the usual bunch of Pathfinder "haters", so I have sympathy.
Knowing Rynjin's posting history, I am pretty sure he didn't mean it in a derogatory fashion or as a slur. Mind you, tempers got pretty heated in that thread.
In the LGBT thread, it's come up quite often that queer is a prefered term.Most of the fellows at my gaming table are homosexual, and they frequently use the 'q-word' as a self-identifier.
Yes, and some of my Black friends call each other by the "n-word", and such things are OK if you're part of that group and say it in a jocular manner. Not to be used by outsiders, however.
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I find these boards typically to be incredibly rude, hostile, full of people who demean others, littered with offensive slurs (This or that is "for queer" which was allowed to stand even after a moderator looked at the thread).
I've greatly cut back my actual money expenditure on this game since I started coming to the boards; its a pretty hostile environment to be perfectly honest.
Ya know...I have never really understood why someone would let the attitudes of anonymous posters on the internet determine how much money they spend on a game. If you had to play with them in real life, sure.
Personally I try not to spend much time in certain types of threads, as anything to do with Monk/rogue/fighter/martial-caster disparity is going to eventually generate a substantial amount of hostility.
MMCJawa has the whole of it here. There are many nice people on the boards, and there are many not-so-nice. Allowing them to influence you beyond their posts is, as some might say, letting them win by upsetting you.
The cold fact is that there are going to be some posters that get away with murder and don't get called down for it for one reason or another. There are also posts that may look derogatory but are not. As always, your mileage may vary on where the line is, and your line and the mods may not add up. Something I consider a personal insult may not even move the needle for the mod looking at it, and a post that Random Joe puts up that one would think wouldn't insult anyone is treated as a heinous crime. It's the way of the Internet.
Paizo both is and isn't the boards. A lot of the people here -- even ones I disagree with -- help make Pathfinder a better game. Your money is yours to spend however you want; that said, letting someone insulting you on the boards dictate supporting or not supporting your hobby seems counter-productive.
Guys, I really don't want to antagonize anyone here, but in the last few days, I think Nathanael is just being contrary for the heck of it. First the psionics thread, then the wild shape thread and now this.
If this post is not okay, I'm okay with its deletion, btw.
He's been attacked pretty savagely by the usual bunch of Pathfinder "haters", so I have sympathy.
Knowing Rynjin's posting history, I am pretty sure he didn't mean it in a derogatory fashion or as a slur. Mind you, tempers got pretty heated in that thread.
Well, I feel kind of bad about this. I should have send a PM instead, if anything.
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In the LGBT thread, it's come up quite often that queer is a prefered term.Most of the fellows at my gaming table are homosexual, and they frequently use the 'q-word' as a self-identifier.Derogatory terms, when used by those the terms are supposed to insult, take on a different context. It is one thing if gay men called each other queer, f~~, queen, and address each other as she or her, but if someone else does it, it can easily become (and is often intended to be) a slur.
And that should NOT be tolerated. You don't want to hear it from others you don't use it like that either. If you do you are ASKING to get called that and should, be it a gay, or racial or religious minority.
Guys, stop being so inflammatory. Leave the poor psionics lovers alone and go back to talking about less contentious topics, like social justice and bigotry.
HA! HA! HA!
I like you, Kobold Cleaver!
In the LGBT thread, it's come up quite often that queer is a prefered term.Most of the fellows at my gaming table are homosexual, and they frequently use the 'q-word' as a self-identifier.
Some do, but there's a lot of different identities beyond just gay and straight, it's not a simple light switch question.
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The cold fact is that there are going to be some posters that get away with murder and don't get called down for it for one reason or another.
I for one think we must put a stop to the rash of murders that has been happening here.
In the LGBT thread, it's come up quite often that queer is a prefered term.It's also come up, perhaps less often, that people find it offensive.
Regardless saying something is "for queers" as the equivalent of "bad" is definitely using it in a derogatory manner.
Oh, hadn't seen the deleted post, just reiterating what had been said.
I use queer. It's what most queers I know have asked to be referred to as. Non-queers who seem to love their PC-ness get bent out of shape by it, but that doesn't bother me.
I think it is different from words that are laced with hatred and bigotry. N-word and f-- being two of them. Those words are pretty much an insult, regardless of their context. Similar to girls who call each other B-words or soldiers who call each other horrific things (which is still unacceptable in polite company), using these words in a non-hostile manner runs all sorts of risks. These terms are inherently offensive.
Words really only have meaning because we all accept that they do. My students and I have very different interpretations of the words 'trifling' and 'rachet' for instance. However, on some level, I consider being offended at 'gay' or 'queer' more subjective than at 'f--'. I'm not sure why.
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I use queer. It's what most queers I know have asked to be referred to as. Non-queers who seem to love their PC-ness get bent out of shape by it, but that doesn't bother me.
I think it is different from words that are laced with hatred and bigotry. N-word and f-- being two of them. Those words are pretty much an insult, regardless of their context. Similar to girls who call each other B-words or soldiers who call each other horrific things (which is still unacceptable in polite company), using these words in a non-hostile manner runs all sorts of risks. These terms are inherently offensive.
Words really only have meaning because we all accept that they do. My students and I have very different interpretations of the words 'trifling' and 'rachet' for instance. However, on some level, I consider being offended at 'gay' or 'queer' more subjective than at 'f--'. I'm not sure why.
As a self-identifying queer, I do suggest you be careful calling all LGBT people you meet "queer". While I use it to describe myself, the word is weighted with a lot of history and baggage and shouldn't be thrown around carelessly.
Dismissing some people's offense to that word as a ploy of political correctness is short-sided at best.
Oh, hadn't seen the deleted post, just reiterating what had been said.
In the LGBT thread, it's come up quite often that queer is a prefered term.
It's also come up, perhaps less often, that people find it offensive.
Regardless saying something is "for queers" as the equivalent of "bad" is definitely using it in a derogatory manner.
The post Nathanael Love is complaining about is still there I believe. The poster was making fun of a certain argument which involved the use of the term in question (among others). I believe Nathanael understood this (?) but was objecting to the use of a term which could be offensive to some (even if it was not intended to offend the "target" group). The poster of the comment indicated as much and the discussion has centered around various labels and whether they are offensive or the degree to which they are (and to whom they are). The layers of explanation / posts and the necessity of dancing around the terms as well as everyone's attempts to not offend other posters makes that difficult to determine if you weren't following along.
Oddly enough, the sensitivity to others in the ensuing confusion above is encouraging. As for the original point (about the lack of moderation for that post) it would be a difficult decision. If you read it (as moderators apparently did) and understood it the way it was intended you would probably let it stand. Which, unfortunately, might offend people who did not read it that way or who were predisposed to be offended or who were worried that it would offend others.
As for me, occasional decisions aside, I find the moderation here well done. It's light enough to let discussions occur and reasonably deft at the elimination of unnecessary and unpleasant posts. On the whole I think the community here is a good one as well. There are some threads that get "heated" but that's the subject matter more than the posters.
All imho of course.
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Not going to be long winded about this, just going to say that these boards are very gay/queer/whatever-other-term-is-used. I really doubt the moderators are letting it stand because they're not sensitive. Quite the contrary I find sometimes they can be too sensitive in that way. Nevertheless, honestly to accuse them of insensitivity on that particular point to me is just laughable.
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Not going to be long winded about this, just going to say that these boards are very gay/queer/whatever-other-term-is-used.
Paizo runs a very safe and inclusive company with many LGBT employees, and that inclusiveness extends to their messageboards. Because of that, folks like us are more open about being here than most other places, and I for one am very happy about that.
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Every now and then I got to comic book message boards, or, shudder, political message boards, or boards relating to various onlines games I'm playing, and, because I'm always looking for low-carb diet options that aren't boring, recipe boards.
Other than the recipe boards, which are gloriously free of such things, this message board seems to be one of the best on the internet (and the only one related to 'fannish' stuff) for *lack* of flames and vitriol and overt 'ism' and general dick-ishness.
On an internet where DC, Marvel, WotC, White Wolf, Sony, Blizzard, etc. are constantly changing (or flat out abandoning) their own message boards, and the noise-to-signal ratio is like 90%/10%, I've pretty much always found the Paizo boards to be a restful oasis in a swirling maelstrom of crap.
I've seen moderator freakouts on messageboards ranging from Steve Jackson Games to White Wolf to EverQuest, where the moderator went on banning sprees *because someone on the forums proved them wrong about something.* (In the WW case, it was because he'd just banned a bunch of people for breaking posting guidelines *that he forgot to actually ever write in the actual posting guidelines,* and when this was pointed out to him, he started a fantastic rant about people having no honor! And the less said about Abashi and 'Alchemy is working as intended,' the better.)
I've seen tiny hints of humans behaving badly here, like someone at Paizo *repeatedly* encouraging posters to take pot-shots at ravingdork for his 'Paizo needs to get its house in order' thread, which itself seemed to be a reaction to a 'posse' of groupie posters rushing from thread to thread harshly criticizing people and quoting authority on those who wanted to play Pathfinder, but didn't necessarily want to use all of the *setting-specific assumptions of Golarion* (making it at least as much the fault of the posters who dragged their 'authority' into it, using his words to bully anyone who disagreed with them). But that's long past, and I've noticed that RD no longer seems to be an open target for un-moderated abuse.
This has been, and remains, one of, if not *the* friendliest online gaming communities I've been lucky enough to have been a part of, despite there occasionally being some human behavior that is less than robot-like in its perfection, 'cause, humans, not robots, and stuff.
I actually kind of prefer a little bit of human feeling, in company employees. I much rather have Sean Reynolds show up and say something un-diplomatic, than know that the employees won't post here at all, for fear of something they wrote being taken wrong, or used to 'gotcha' someone later, or turning into Flame War MMMDCCLXXVIII.
There are a few Paizo employees that seem to have been completely burned by posters *freaking out* that they had an opinion on something like a TV show or comic book (as if, by taking a position at Paizo, they are no longer allowed to express an opinion on anything in popular culture, ever again, and that expressing a snarky opinion on a *TV show* is exactly the same thing as insulting everyone who ever watched it), and have just walked away, and I feel that the community is poorer for that.
The boards do have the usual internet community issues, where being a fan of X seems to draw the ire of fans of Y, as if one can't *possibly* like both 4E *and* PF, or watch both Agents of SHIELD *and* Arrow, or character X fans getting into Sharks vs. Jets interpretive dance-offs with fans of character Y, because if you like Captain America/Kyle Rayner-John Stewart/Rogue/Dean, you have to hate, hate, HATE Iron Man/Hal Jordan/the Scarlet Witch/Sam.
But that's just Bickerson intertube tribalism, and, thanks to advances in computing is pretty much guaranteed to outlive the human race.
A hundred thousands years from now, aliens sifting through the rubble of our civilization will be wondering why it was so terribly important to us whether Bella ended up with whatshisname 1 or whatshisname 2.
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I wouldn't be too certain that digital media will outlive humanity.
The ultimate problem is that digital media itself tends to be prone to physical degradation; the data may be perfectly fine, but the CD can degrade to the point that it cannot be used and the data might as well not exist at all. And earlier forms of digital media had the problem even worse; there are already entire decades of digital media in certain circles which are simply lost. If what I suspect is accurate, then the 20th and 21st centuries will be grand mysteries to those who follow; heroes such as Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr and Ghandi will simply be lost to time. All because of the paperless momentum.
The conflicts on here are the same way. Long term? No one will remember this. So, why treat it as so important?
Just my two cents.
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I use queer. It's what most queers I know have asked to be referred to as. Non-queers who seem to love their PC-ness get bent out of shape by it, but that doesn't bother me.
Words really only have meaning because we all accept that they do. My students and I have very different interpretations of the words 'trifling' and 'rachet' for instance. However, on some level, I consider being offended at 'gay' or 'queer' more subjective than at 'f--'. I'm not sure why.As a self-identifying queer, I do suggest you be careful calling all LGBT people you meet "queer". While I use it to describe myself, the word is weighted with a lot of history and baggage and shouldn't be thrown around carelessly.
Dismissing some people's offense to that word as a ploy of political correctness is short-sided at best.
And you are the first queer among many to express concern. It does further my point though. Sometimes, entire communities are divided over what they want to be called. Some black people took offensive to African-American. Some white people take offense to white. According to a few surveys, nearly half of Native Americans don't care about the term 'redskin'. (And are equally torn about Native American and American Indian.)
But that all breaks down into personal feeling territory. Aka, subjective. I wouldn't find it any more suitable to call a queer queer who said they hate that word than to call a white guy whitie who said that hate that word, or a student student who said they hate that word despite having no intention of offense. But that's at a personal level.
Some people get really uptight about labels, either in particular or in general. That's fine, that's their right. I try to conduct myself in a manner of respect with all people, but I'm not going to trip over my words in fear that someone might die of political incorrectness. Offense given in ignorance or innocence should be an opportunity to learn from each other. One person's honor is another person's disrespect.
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He's been attacked pretty savagely by the usual bunch of Pathfinder "haters", so I have sympathy.No, people are disagreeing with his views because they are often poorly expressed and badly supported by any sort of reasonable argument. Much like your own.
Also calling people who disagree with you haters says far more about you than anyone else.
That's not really true-- some people are disagreeing with my views and expressing their reasons for doing so, which is I believe the point of discussion boards.
But quoting my post and stating "lol how dumb" isn't a strong argument against my points, its just an attack and there have been several posters who repeatedly call me stupid, awful, ect, completely ignoring the discussion and just insulting me which is pretty frustrating.
I don't mind people who disagree with my points, but I do not like simply being called bad for making them.
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I wouldn't be too certain that digital media will outlive humanity.
The ultimate problem is that digital media itself tends to be prone to physical degradation; the data may be perfectly fine, but the CD can degrade to the point that it cannot be used and the data might as well not exist at all. And earlier forms of digital media had the problem even worse; there are already entire decades of digital media in certain circles which are simply lost. If what I suspect is accurate, then the 20th and 21st centuries will be grand mysteries to those who follow; heroes such as Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr and Ghandi will simply be lost to time. All because of the paperless momentum.
The conflicts on here are the same way. Long term? No one will remember this. So, why treat it as so important?
Just my two cents.
The 19th and 20th century paper records (the time period since acid paper became common) are as or more decay-vulnerable as digital record-keeping, in any case. It's not just digital media, though methods of manufacturing high quality archival paper, more akin to that used before the 19th century, have more recently been developed that help the situation.
Some excerpts:
At present the situation is alarming, as 19th and 20th century files and especially book collections are practically crumbling away.
It was concluded that 90% of book collections from the studied period needed deacidifying and 100% of archival materials.
In the summing-up of the research it was concluded that the paper documents from the 19th and 20th centuries in Polish archives were highly acidified and in great part they need deacidifying.
As a piece of trivia, the yellowing, cracked edges, etc. of paper is more often a byproduct of modern paper manufacturing methods, and not necessarily shared by Renaissance or earlier era papers except in cases of bad preservation or active damage (e.g. by fire).
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RE: usage of "queer" and whether it is or is not derogatory- that's the problem with the heckler's veto, different people have different values and different standards, and it would be unfair to hold everyone to the strictest possible standards because of the one person who purports to hold them. It shouldn't be possible to shut down a reasonable discussion just on the basis of concern trolling.
I don't envy Paizo moderators for having to wade through a sea of posts trying to find a reasonable compromise for what's unnecessarily rude and what isn't.