Hoping to make a parallel to the Augment Summoning feat for the Transmutation school. Looking for thoughts on balance.
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You can expertly translate your magical might into brawn.
Prerequisites: Spell Focus (transmutation)
Benefit: While under the effects of a spell or extract of the polymorph subschool, you can use your caster level instead of your base attack bonus when making natural attacks that rely on your new form.
Normal: You use your normal base attack bonus when polymorphed for all attack forms.
Looking at the prerequisite and realizing you could take it theoretically at level 1, I would suggest putting another one on there of caster level 5 or 7 if for no other reason than to actually gain a significant bonus when you use it. Augment summoning's bonus is static and immediate so taking it early can be a huge boon. That's not true with this one.
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This could be broken on a monstrous physique magus. Maybe not, but is check it.
Maybe make it 3/4 BaB with an Improved version that grants full?
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Lets try and avoid the return of CoDzilla if at all possible. Full bab for a spell alone is 8th level and removes spellcasting (transformation). Making a feat that does that for all polymorph spells is very dangerous. I dont think it would produce a true codzila but it certainly gives druids an unnecessary combat boost.
As I read it, it would do little for druids. They're going to be using wild shape which is neither a spell or an extract. (It's a supernatural ability).
Most of the polymorph spells aren't even on their list; the few that are have all the usual limitations like 1 minute per level.
Orfamay Quest has the right of it. It's meant to give Arcane (and I suppose divine) shapeshifters a leg up on the Druidzillas out there as well as to allow the Transmutation school to (sort of) compete against Conjuration.
And yes, there is a similar mythic option, which doesn't bother me in the slightest since (1) this is a great feat for non-mythic games and (2) there is already plenty of precedent for mythic options outright invalidating some non-mythic options.
It is pretty much broken, a lot more dedication than a single feat should be in place, 9th lvl spells and full BAB without slowing down a bit, the feat requirement doesn't even slow down a GOD wizard.
Warshifter
prerquisites: arcane strike, spell focus transmutation, ability to cast a polymorph spell of 3rd level or higher as an arane spell.
Any polymorph spell you cast and are affected by grants you a +1 enhancement bonus on all your natural attacks and the ability to ignore DR magic.
Note: A transmuter can take this feat as a bonus feat at 5th lvl or higher.
Improved Warshifter
prerequisites : arcane strike, spell focus transmutation, warshifter, ability to cast a polymorph spell of 4th lvl or higher as an arcane spell.
Any polymorph spell you cast and are affected by gives you a +1 enhancement bonus on natural attacks per 4 caster levels and the ability to ignore DR as a weapon with the same enhancement bonus.
Note: A transmuter can take this feat as a bonus feat at 10th lvl or higher. If used with an amulet of mighty fists or similar item only the highest enhancement bonus applies but other enhancements work normally.
- This at least requires some thought on whether or not you should take it, the benefit is saving on an amulet of mighty fists but it is not something you couldn't take without at great expense, of course it doesn't take an item slot regardless, so the benefit remains.
Versatile Shifter
prerequisites:
Able to cast a spell with the polymorph sub school that grants you a natural weapon attack or the ability to wildshape, weapon focus with a natural weapon.
Benefit: Any benefit a feat applies to a specific natural weapon applies to all of your natural weapons as long as all requirements (other than feats you already possess that benefit from this feat) are met.
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Come to think of it you could just tie Warshifter in with arcane strike, give it a +1 circumstance (?) bonus to hit for every +1 of damage that you would deal with arcane strike.
Warshifter
prerequisites:
Arcane strike, spell focus transmutation, ability to cast a polymorph spell of 3rd lvl or higher as an arcane spell.
Benefit:
you gain a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls when using arcane strike, this bonus increases at the same rate as Arcane strike.
This benefit only applies to natural attacks made when under the effect of a polymorph spell cast by yourself.
At first I considered adding harsher prerequisites, such as CL 10th perhaps, but I'm hesitant to do so since its meant to compete with another very powerful (some would say "must have") feat, Augment Summoning.
Interesting feats, Remco, just don't do enough if you ask me. If a wizard still can't hit after polymorphing and taking the feats,they clearly aren't doing their job.
I like the idea of boosting to hit when polymorphed. But full bab is not a good idea. Try to make a combat focused arcane caster with this feat.
I am pretty sure he will be better than lots of melee dudes.
This feat will make every caster in to a melee monster.
I think some bonus to to hit and Dam is a good idea but not CR to BAB.
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At first I considered adding harsher prerequisites, such as CL 10th perhaps, but I'm hesitant to do so since its meant to compete with another very powerful (some would say "must have") feat, Augment Summoning.
Interesting feats, Remco, just don't do enough if you ask me. If a wizard still can't hit after polymorphing and taking the feats,they clearly aren't doing their job.
I just think taking a feat to ignore the wizards lack of BAB is the wrong way to go. Next we take a feat to ignore the fighter's lack of 6th or 9th level spell casting ?
I think there should be an option for wizards to make a shifting type 'warrior' but it better cost him a considerable amount of his resources/feats. It is already deemed the most powerful class in the game, I don't see a point in giving it freebies.
Let's say you take the Arcane strike option and get a similar boost to hit, at 15th lvl you are at +4/+4 for arane strike, assuming you invest in physical scores and an amulet of mighty fists. You will be about 8 BAB + 3 WT compared to a fighter behind -4 for this feat, 7 behind on a fighter. But you do have 8th lvl spells, the fighter does not, a transformation spell gets you up to speed, a quickened spell and you are ready to stand side by side with the warriors.
Lets not make it too easy, it is part of the challenge.
Eldritch knight is an acceptable way to do the things you want to do at the cost of 2 levels of casting, don't forget the fighter gives up 20 levels of casting.
Why is temporary full BAB not a good idea? People polymorph for natural attacks and other abilities. I suppose you *could* wield a weapon but for high level polymorphing you're probably taking several incorrect size penalties as you'll likely be 2-3x larger than what the weapon was created for.
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Why is temporary full BAB not a good idea?
More to the point, why is it a good idea?
Wizards aren't overpowering enough -- we need to give them the ability to render front-line combatants as well as skill monkeys useless?
The game is rife with temporary bonuses. This would just be another.
Now, why not?
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The game is rife with temporary bonuses. This would just be another.
Now, why not?
Because it is a good thing that full casters are not the greatest melee Fighters in the game.
Full BAB does not guarantee success in melee. You know all those feats that fighters get, rage powers for barbarians, smite evil for paladins, etc, etc? Those are what make those classes what they are. Full BAB is simply a starting point.
O rly? Well, while the wizard is trying to single handedly win encounters by buffing himself, combat is likely going to happen around him. Nothing beats DR like a pallys smite, btw. I'd also like to see the full retinue of rage powers and feats for barbarians and fighters, respectively, compiled into a buff list. Care to create it?
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The game is rife with temporary bonuses. This would just be another.
Now, why not?
Because it adds complexity, detracts from playability, and makes the game less fun for everyone except the person playing a wizard (which includes the GM). If there's no reason to add another temporary bonus, why bother?
Why let any non spellcasting class train up UMD? It adds complexity, detracts from playability and makes the game less fun for everyone except the person playing the fighter.
If you switch the classes, you'll see that never made much sense. I fail to see how it adds complexity and detracts from playability. It provides another option to a build. That adds to playability. It is no more complex than many other feats. The crafting feats and leadership come immediately to mind of those inherently more complex. Many spells are vastly more involved. The grappling mechanics alone are vastly more convoluted than this feat. Equalize those others often difficult and murky rules before picking apart BAB = caster level.
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Why let any non spellcasting class train up UMD? It adds complexity, detracts from playability and makes the game less fun for everyone except the person playing the fighter.
Well, from the fact that you've not actually presented a single benefit from the feat, and instead are resorting to argument by caricature, I consider my claim that there's no good reason to allow this feat to be demonstrated.
Awesome. Given that bar of logic, as you focused so narrowly on my response as to miss the points I made AFTER that quote and ignore them entirely, my stance is, in fact, valid. Thanks!
Awesome. Given that bar of logic, as you focused so narrowly on my response as to miss the points I made AFTER that quote and ignore them entirely, my stance is, in fact, valid. Thanks!
You made points? I beg to differ with you.
Differ on.
Because it adds complexity, detracts from playability, and makes the game less fun for everyone except the person playing a wizard (which includes the GM). If there's no reason to add another temporary bonus, why bother?
I think you are WAY overstating this. This is in no way more complex than a monk getting full base attack bonus when he flurries. In fact, it's probably less complex.
Hoping to make a parallel to the Augment Summoning feat for the Transmutation school. Looking for thoughts on balance.
You can expertly translate your magical might into brawn.
Prerequisites: Spell Focus (transmutation)
Benefit: While under the effects of a spell or extract of the polymorph subschool, you can use your caster level instead of your base attack bonus when making natural attacks that rely on your new form.
Normal: You use your normal base attack bonus when polymorphed for all attack forms.
A couple of things I noticed looking over Ravingdork's presented option. Firstly it specifies that the effective BAB is only relevant on natural attacks which I think he meant Natural Weapons.
That means that the effective BAB doesn't grant extra iterative attacks and turning into a giant would offer no better bonuses to hit unless they were using a natural slam attack or similar. The effective BAB bump could allow them to get better returns on Power Attack however.
That's a hugely limiting factor. Further, it doesn't do much for their AC, HP, and if they're investing in combat feats then they're going to be less impressive. This seems more of a stylistic choice than not, since natural attacks aren't particularly effective without a lot of specialization.
Yes, natural weapons only.
Yes, natural weapons only.
Honestly, that doesn't sound like a bad thing. Most of the forms you're going to take with polymorph subschool spells aren't going to allow you to cast, and even for druids who take this, it's barely as much of a benefit (a whole +5 over 20 levels). This might make my brothers dragon-sorcerer from 3.5 more viable in Pathfinder (his sorcerer used polymorphing spells to mimic being a dragon and it was fun).
There are many classes that can fulfill multiple roles. I have no innate problem with a spellcaster being to do some melee and stuff if they're either A) not doing it all at the same time, or B) not outdoing martials at it.
The problem with 3.5 was that you could do everything at the same time and be the most badass dude/dudette at it ever. Tank physical stats, ignore feats, cast a spell, be better than all the martials while throwing around spells.
This will not do that, but it might mean you can land some attacks.
I'm thinking, worst case scenario, someone really power games their caster level to get their BAB much higher than a fighter of equal level.
Even then though, their damage output will be mediocre in comparison.
Compare that to the conjurer who can summon a small army of augmented huge-sized smiters or an animator who can create a 40-HD golem with BAB 40.
I'm thinking, worst case scenario, someone really power games their caster level to get their BAB much higher than a fighter of equal level.
Even then though, their damage output will be mediocre in comparison.
Compare that to the conjurer who can summon a small army of augmented huge-sized smiters or an animator who can create a 40-HD golem with BAB 40.
I would find it easier to argue giving fighters access to 6th level wizard spells, since their DCs would still suck and they'd have a hard time casting in armor, besides wizards get 7th, 8th and 9th level spells.. there is simply no comparison.. right ?
By all means brew what you want in your games, I know I do, but I see no point to step on the martials toes just because the mighty transmuter feels sidelined by awe-inspiring conjurer.
If you want to be a better fighter invest in EK levels or cast a few buff spells, standard, quicken, contingency and familiar action should have you ready in a round.
EDIT: I have doubt about their perceived mediocrity anyway, with some basic options and feats I come down to this using a full BAB wizard vs a greatsword fighter. The wizard is moe focused on combat than a typical wizard but not more than the fighter:
fighter deals +31/+26/+21 (17-20)2d6+34
wizard deals +27/+27/+27/+27/+25/+25, 2D8+33/ 2D6+25/ 2D6+25/ 2D6+25/ 1D8+17/ 1D8+17
In addition the wizard will have better defenses, fancy abilities and spells up to 8th lvl. It is close to the fighter in combat ability but probably better. Using 1 round to prepare ofcourse, just casting form of the dragon III in this case, not counting any swift or familiar actions.
One thing it'd make casters really good at is wrestling. Considering Polymorph school gets you increased size and a number of good grappler abilities (later levels can get grab/rake/constrict although not at once I think) on top of the STR bonus. Would also make the white hair witch pretty amazing at it (assuming the forms you polymorph into has hair I suppose her abilities should work?).
Something important to note is that as written this does almost nil for combat maneuvers. Save for your natural attacks using your CL to hit instead of BAB you're not actually changing your base attack bonus, so your CMB and CMD are not made any better by this as written.
I'm thinking, worst case scenario, someone really power games their caster level to get their BAB much higher than a fighter of equal level.
Even then though, their damage output will be mediocre in comparison.
Compare that to the conjurer who can summon a small army of augmented huge-sized smiters or an animator who can create a 40-HD golem with BAB 40.
You would need to build a caster much differently to be an ideal shapeshifter, I think, which is a good thing. It's in fact the most important thing. If you wanted to make melee combat as a monster more viable, you would see your wizard or sorcerer type with a far different point buy, and feats like this, arcane strike, and a much different magic item selection. If you're not going whole-hog then you're not going to get much out of it other than wasting some feats.
I would find it easier to argue giving fighters access to 6th level wizard spells, since their DCs would still suck and they'd have a hard time casting in armor, besides wizards get 7th, 8th and 9th level spells.. there is simply no comparison.. right ?
You would have it easier to argue that giving fighters access to spells because fighters suck. They need spells, but they don't have them. We'd be better off trying to decide if this allows the caster to make to out perform or nullify the appeal of Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers, Bards, or Magi. The short answer is "no".
If you want to be a better fighter invest in EK levels or cast a few buff spells, standard, quicken, contingency and familiar action should have you ready in a round.
Again, the largest complaint here is that EK doesn't really do much for a transmutation caster and is largely superfluous for the sort of flavor and gameplay style this feat is catering to, which is the arcane shapeshifter. Eldritch Knights has little to offer that makes this a good idea.
Eldritch Knights get a real BAB and bonus feats (a real BAB is important for qualifying for good feats other than just Power Attack), their bonus feats are fighter oriented and mostly pointless for shapeshifitng. Their capstone ability is useless for the sort of thing this feat would be used for because wizards and sorcerers cannot cast spells in a form that would make use of this feat, except perhaps Form of the Dragon.
In essence, you are going to create an arcanist (wizard or sorcerer) that is awesome at nothing he wants to do with his concept and great at everything else. Likewise there is nothing in the wizard schools that really make this an ideal path to take a wizard and scarcely anything on the sorcerer bloodlines that makes it very attractive either, beyond just wanting to have some fun with it.
I do appreciate that it might be better on sorcerers since sorcerer bloodlines seem to love giving things that would be great for everyone except sorcerers, like claw natural attacks, which is also not a bad thing.
EDIT: I have doubt about their perceived mediocrity anyway, with some basic options and feats I come down to this using a full BAB wizard vs a greatsword fighter. The wizard is moe focused on combat than a typical wizard but not more than the fighter:
fighter deals +31/+26/+21 (17-20)2d6+34
wizard deals +27/+27/+27/+27/+25/+25, 2D8+33/ 2D6+25/ 2D6+25/ 2D6+25/ 1D8+17/ 1D8+17
In addition the wizard will have better defenses, fancy abilities and spells up to 8th lvl. It is close to the fighter in combat ability but probably better. Using 1 round to prepare ofcourse, just casting form of the dragon III in this case, not counting any swift or familiar actions.
Can you give a quick breakdown of your material?
Can you give a quick breakdown of your material?EDIT: I have doubt about their perceived mediocrity anyway, with some basic options and feats I come down to this using a full BAB wizard vs a greatsword fighter. The wizard is moe focused on combat than a typical wizard but not more than the fighter:
fighter deals +31/+26/+21 (17-20)2d6+34
wizard deals +27/+27/+27/+27/+25/+25, 2D8+33/ 2D6+25/ 2D6+25/ 2D6+25/ 1D8+17/ 1D8+17
In addition the wizard will have better defenses, fancy abilities and spells up to 8th lvl. It is close to the fighter in combat ability but probably better. Using 1 round to prepare ofcourse, just casting form of the dragon III in this case, not counting any swift or familiar actions.
sure, I might have made a minor mistake here or there but:
fighter strength 26, spec, gr spec, wf, gr wf, improved crit.
gloves of dueling, gr sword +5.
+15 BAB, WT+5, WF/GWF +2, GSW+5, str +8 = +35 base
2d6+26
with PA = +31/+26/+21 2d6+38 (I was a little off there)
wizard strength 26/36 in dragonshape, arcane strike, augment polymorph, PA and multi-attack
+15 BAB, Amulet+5, str +13, size -2 = +31 base
2d8+28 (bite +31 - amulet+5, strength+19, AS +4)
2d6+22 (clawx2 +31, amulet+5, strength+13, AS +4)
2d6+22 (tail +31, amulet+5, strength+13, AS +4)
1d8+15 (wingsx2 +29, amulet+5, strength+6, AS+4) -2 AB (multi-attack)
with PA:
+27/+27/+27/+27/+25/+25
2d8+40, bite (kinda wondering whether they actually get powerful bite)
2d6+30, claws x2
2d6+30, tail
1d8+19, wings x2
roughly this...
*if they dont get powerful bite they do a bit less damage on the bite, +22 without PA and +30 with.
* also should probably tak the amulet down to +4 since it is more expensive than a normal weapon enhancement.
As an example a sorcerer taking the form of a Calikang. Kind of a sorcerer version, of Ravindroks Kang Makhai character how would he do look with full BaB in his huge 6 armed form?
As opposed to Ashiel i dont think that natural attaking needs alot of feat investment to be great. Just get power attack and you are on your way.
At level 8 a sorcerer with a shapechange focus(abherrent line pehaps) would be looking at (with a starting str of 16) str 22 somthing like 6 times +12 to hit and 1d6+13 damage with a + 2 str belt and a AoMF +1, with spells like Mage armor, shield, and mirror image he will even be ok defensively also. ad on spells like heroism, displacement and false life.
I know that you will not have unlimitet buff rounds but this guy is ok with just the long time buffs and monstrous physique.
Hmm now i want to play this guy:(
I agree that it is a great idea to do somthing for the shapechanger wizard compared to the summoner. But this feat is stepping on some one elses toes.
Edit: for spells
Edit: i really like the idea so please talk me in to believing in this.
2d8+40, bite (kinda wondering whether they actually get powerful bite)
2d6+30, claws x2
2d6+30, tail
1d8+19, wings x2roughly this...
*if they dont get powerful bite they do a bit less damage on the bite, +22 without PA and +30 with.
* also should probably tak the amulet down to +4 since it is more expensive than a normal weapon enhancement.
They do not get powerful bite and cannot take multitattack. They do not meet the prerequisites, unless they already have the prerequisites for multiattack pre-casting of the spell. You might be able to make an argument that they can take multiattack if they can remain in a form with 3+ natural attacks for 24+ hours (on the argument that it works for ability scores) but that seems unlikely given the durations of these spells.
I still don't understand why we're comparing this to a fighter, given that Fighters suck. If you want to compare classes to the fighter, we might as well remove everything except Rogues and Monks.
There's also a funny thing that at the levels this is practical to try, dispel magic and greater dispel magic are party favors. As a general rule, there's a certain risk vs reward thing going on here. Form of the dragon III is likely the first spell that is going to be checked on a dispel each time, and going from a melee-only dude with suitable martial capability to a 1/2 BAB guy with no combat efficiency on a random mook's dispel is kind of a worrisome prospect.
There's also kind of this thing where your still kind of a squishy with a low CMB/CMD. You're definitely going to want to take Defensive Combat Training (no question). A great Constitution is probably something you're going to want to push hard too since you're down roughly 30 base HP alone (assuming 15th level, or 40 base HP if 20th).
Like, you can definitely build a decent martial-alternative, but you're going to be investing a lot into it from a specialization standpoint. You're looking at slanting your point buy into it, feats into it, and all your wealth into it (because without a maxed amulet of mighty fists, DR is going to destroy you, and you are going to need to load up up on all the +AC items you can get a hold of, and you can't pierce epic DR unless you're using mythic rules).
This is also one of those builds that is going to come into its own late game, since it's much harder to make spells like alter self, beast shape, or polymorph really stand out as being amazingly awesome, and form of the dragon is fairly meh until you get form of the dragon II & III for the size increases. Lunge is also a feat you're probably going to need ('cause reach is a big deal).
I'm going to go run some numbers and weigh some risk / reward stuff, and I'll post my thoughts when I return.
There's also a funny thing that at the levels this is practical to try, dispel magic and greater dispel magic are party favors. As a general rule, there's a certain risk vs reward thing going on here. Form of the dragon III is likely the first spell that is going to be checked on a dispel each time, and going from a melee-only dude with suitable martial capability to a 1/2 BAB guy with no combat efficiency on a random mook's dispel is kind of a worrisome prospect.
Hehe this is a great picture. But spells can ruin lots of folk in unpleasant ways.
I agree it will be unfortunate when it happens. But it is also unpleasant to have all kinds of other spells dispelled on you.I undestand the figthers already suck argument. but it shows that we are arguing two different things. Remco and I are saying that this feat will make the Polymorphling too good a melee combatant. But to you that is not a problem?
It dosent matter if Remco or i show that the Polymorphling is offensively on par with the melee classes. Because that is fine with you? Is that rigth?
There's also a funny thing that at the levels this is practical to try, dispel magic and greater dispel magic are party favors. As a general rule, there's a certain risk vs reward thing going on here. Form of the dragon III is likely the first spell that is going to be checked on a dispel each time, and going from a melee-only dude with suitable martial capability to a 1/2 BAB guy with no combat efficiency on a random mook's dispel is kind of a worrisome prospect.Hehe this is a great picture. But spells can ruin lots of folk in unpleasant ways.
I agree it will be unfortunate when it happens. But it is also unpleasant to have all kinds of other spells dispelled on you.
The catch is that it's kind of an eggs and baskets deal. If I'm playing a Barbarian, Paladin, or Ranger, then yes getting dispelled is somewhat of a drag, but I'm still a Barbarian, Paladin, or Ranger. Dispelling does diddly to the fact I have a real BAB, lots of un-dispellable class features making me a scary monster, and so forth. Even a lot of your buffs and/or power comes from magic items, and dispelling all your magic items is a huge pain in the butt for even a legion of minions with dispel magic, and often a waste since they automatically turn back on in about 2 rounds.
Whereas if you're polymorph specializing, you're banking everything on a single spell. That's kind of a thing. See, let's say that you've taken Arcane Strike, this feat, and you've made your own +5 Amulet of Mighty fists (because you need it to be +5 'cause DR will utterly destroy your offense without it). So then you're a badass dragon!
Except at 11th+ level, dispel magic isn't just a thing. It's a common thing. It was a thing back at pre-5th level (a 5th level NPC mage is CR 4, so yeah). Now it's a party favor, and frequently possessed as an at-will by outsiders or with high caster levels on adept mooks, whichever suits your fancy.
Now imagine that in almost any given encounter, a random dispel magic says "you aren't a warrior anymore". That's not even counting the fact that by the time form of the dragon III comes online, you're looking at mage's disjunction as a thing, and mage's disjunction just turns it off automatically with no check (whereas martials get saving throws to resist their items turning off).
A big part of understanding how balanced something is also comes with knowing how to play the game at the level it's really meaningful at. Now meanwhile...
At 3rd level, you have alter self. Not a bad feat if you want to turn into a lizardfolk and bite/claw/claw some folks, but it's not going to make you a good martial. At 5th level, you can get beast shape I which again, is nice but not outclassing martials. It's the ability to turn off your spellcasting for 5 minutes and replace it with bite/claw/claw, +2 Str, and +2 natural armor (except you're not wearing armor so... >_>). This continues for a while with beast shape II at 7th level & III at 9th being more useful due to giving you bigger forms (though the size thing comes with its own problems 'cause squeezing is a thing and -4 to attacks and AC because you don't fit correctly is not very fun).
It's not really until you get to really high levels that it's going to be attractive. The polymorph rules state that you can't cast spells sans forms that can, such as dragons. So form of the dragon I is the first time you're not turning off your "I'm a wizard/sorcerer" to be a second rate martial, but the first form of the dragon at 11th level is weak physically (it's medium size only so you don't get really impressive stat buffs, and it doesn't have lots of natural attacks yet, just 1 bite / 2 claws / 2 wing secondary attacks (secondary attacks are at -5 with 1/2 str and suffer greatly diminished power attack returns, so most of your damage here is going to come from Arcane Strike + Amulet).
I undestand the figthers already suck argument. but it shows that we are arguing two different things. Remco and I are saying that this feat will make the Polymorphling too good a melee combatant. But to you that is not a problem? It dosent matter if Remco or i show that the Polymorphling is offensively on par with the melee classes. Because that is fine with you? Is that rigth?
So far I'm not convinced that it's on part with melee classes. Barbarian, Ranger, or Paladin all fight better IMHO at the level that is really going to look good and they don't turn into a little 1/2 BAB man with no weapons and an overly expensive amulet randomly in combat, and they tend to be much sturdier. Further, there's the fact that literally the only thing that these forms do is melee (because when was the last time you saw a giant bear whip out a longbow?), which is in itself a hugely limiting thing (since even without specializing in archery, any martial can pull out a bow to deal with most flying enemies and do just fine).
I just don't think anyone is looking at the real picture.
Lets ignore the beast shape spells and focus on the pllymorph spells that will allow you to keep Spell casting.
Alter self.
Monsterous physique.
Form of the dragon
And the giant forms
You dont need to specialize in dragon forms.
I think alter self will be fine in Many encounters if you at the same time remember to get the proper items and stats. At low levels 3 attacks is not bad and you will be hitting just as well as the others.
My level 8 example is not unrealistic in any way and he will keep scaling just fine.
I undestand the dispel problem, and also he will also have a unimpressive fortitude save.
Any way if the dispel thing is such a big deal, then the Polymorphling is not an option no matter how good a feat we make for him.
2d8+40, bite (kinda wondering whether they actually get powerful bite)
2d6+30, claws x2
2d6+30, tail
1d8+19, wings x2roughly this...
*if they dont get powerful bite they do a bit less damage on the bite, +22 without PA and +30 with.
* also should probably tak the amulet down to +4 since it is more expensive than a normal weapon enhancement.They do not get powerful bite and cannot take multitattack. They do not meet the prerequisites, unless they already have the prerequisites for multiattack pre-casting of the spell. You might be able to make an argument that they can take multiattack if they can remain in a form with 3+ natural attacks for 24+ hours (on the argument that it works for ability scores) but that seems unlikely given the durations of these spells.
I still don't understand why we're comparing this to a fighter, given that Fighters suck. If you want to compare classes to the fighter, we might as well remove everything except Rogues and Monks.
Ok, so some players might get multi-attak but most won't. It is not very important either way. I wasn't sure on powerful bite so I included without in the stats too.
Fighter's suck a fairly good deal, but they do not suck at fighting (even though they might not be the absolute best at it) and that is what I am comparing the wizard to right now.
I didn't exactly go overboard with the provided stats and feats for the fighter or wizard but I think the picture is fairly accurate.
CMD is not that terrible +7 base, +13 strength, a bonus to dex of +2 presumably, +2 size (?) and the usual deflection and doge bonuses and such.
fighter's CMD is +15, +2 dex, +8 strength ? maybe 1 or 2 points better, if the wizard takes the feat it's CMD will be 6 or 7 better.
The wizard's CMB will be fairly good as long as it is using natural attacks and gets a huge strength and size bonus, again about equal to the fighter.
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[Subtitles] RUUUUUN!!!! ITS CODZILLIA! [/subtitles]
Lets ignore the beast shape spells and focus on the pllymorph spells that will allow you to keep Spell casting.
Okay, I'll go through all of them with you. :)
Alter self.
Your AC sucks. You're still an arcane caster with no armor proficiencies. That's kind of a problem. You might have 3 attacks (1d6/1d4/1d4) with the right form, but you're kind of a joke unless you can get the attacks off (and have invested strongly in Strength). The cost of doing all of this? Heavy point buy sacrifices and lots of spell slots (we're talking mage armor, shield every fight, enlarge person if you want to get reach) and what's still sad is you're only getting maybe 1-3 combats out of it per day (at 3rd level, 2nd level spells are your highest level spells, and it only lasts 1 min / level).
This is also the first place where I point out the major flaw with the "I can fight and cast spells". You can't do that very effectively. You are either fighting, or you are casting spells. If you are casting spells, your feats and point buy is wasted. If you are fighting, you're not a wizard anymore.
Monsterous physique.
This is beast shape I but you can cast spells. Again, same issues. +2 Str / +2 Natural armor, at 5th level. Your AC is still pretty bad more than likely and you're sacrificing 3rd level spells for 5 minutes of buff.
Form of the dragon
This is the real worrisome one. This is really the only one that anyone should reasonably care about because it could actually get pretty strong since it gives nice Strength, Constitution, and Natural armor bonuses, and some nice natural attack routines (5 natural attacks or 6 with the better versions). Unfortunately, you're medium sized and at 11th level, and you must rely on full-attacking. At this level your AC might not be terrible (since at this point you have probably amassed deflection, dexterity, armor, and if you ate the 50% increase, natural armor bonuses all contributing to your AC), but it's not going to be stellar either (because you're trying the make up the difference between armor + enhancement bonus with natural armor + bracers of armor).
The reason I focused heavily on form of the dragon II and III spells is because those are the only ones I see that are actually going to make a wizard rival a Fighter in melee (but I still have my doubts when it comes to Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers, or Clerics). This is solely due to the fact you get a ton of natural attacks and a very big bonus to Strength checks, and assuming that you've been speccing like a Fighter instead of a Wizard, you can get an extra +5 points of Strength modifier over the Fighter.
However, as noted before, I find this unimpressive because you're still limited to melee only, you're limited to full-attack or bust, you can't use any of the really good feats like Dazing Assault (unless you stunted your spellcasting by multiclassing which messes up your effective BAB derived from the feat since you are using your BAB or your CL, not both, so if you drop in CL to pick up feats like Dazing Assault sooner, your hit chances will actually go down), and suffers from the eggs + basket problem.
And the giant forms
Like form of the dragon, this comes late and the best form you can take is trolls. You're still pretty much just natural weapons since trying to swing around a big weapon is pointless (the feat only improves your to-hit chances with natural weapons, it doesn't help you with manufactured weapons, unarmed strikes, hitting with spells, qualifying for feats, CMB, or setting feat save DCs for feats like Dazing Assault).
The result is we're still getting a 2nd rate martial and a 2nd rate caster. I'm okay with that. That's called a cler-- actually, no, that's called a bard. Clerics built to be martials are going to crush your face (+14 net Str-gain as a non-action for 1 round 20 rounds per day, mama mia!).
You dont need to specialize in dragon forms.
I think alter self will be fine in Many encounters if you at the same time remember to get the proper items and stats. At low levels 3 attacks is not bad and you will be hitting just as well as the others.
There is more to fighting than DPR against an immobile combat dummy. Not to try to start some great MMO discussion, but it's like playing WoW and saying "look how awesome I am attacking this combat dummy" versus "Oh my god, why am I getting destroyed in PvP!?". In a real game enemies are going to...
1. Hit back (this is huge deal at low levels).
2. Won't always stand still for you (your BAB sucks so casting defensively is a thing, withdrawing is a thing too, acrobatics is a thing, or just flying around is a thing, so you get to enjoy all the worst parts of being a martial except you can't use a bow effectively).
3. Deal with issues like being unable to change your weapons to deal with damage reductions. An amulet of mighty fists with a +3 enhancement bonus is a big deal and you'll need to craft it yourself (it's above the purchase limits in the core rulebook) unless your GM has some other means for you to attain it.
My level 8 example is not unrealistic in any way and he will keep scaling just fine.
I undestand the dispel problem, and also he will also have a unimpressive fortitude save.Any way if the dispel thing is such a big deal, then the Polymorphling is not an option no matter how good a feat we make for him.
I haven't actually seen your level 8 example. Maybe I'm missing it somewhere, but let's try this. You show me that it's overpowered. I'm not asking for a full build or anything, just show me the 15 PB that you would use, what sort of equipment you would use, and an overview of your strategy / basic gearset at the levels these spells become available.
As to the dispel thing, I didn't say it was impossible, I said it's a big risk vs reward thing. My brother played a sorcerer in 3.5 who spent most of his combats from 4th level spells and beyond as a dragon. This was in 3.5 where you got the same ability scores as the creature, their natural armor bonuses, the works, and could still cast spells. He still couldn't out fight the party barbarian in 3.5, even with his ability scores skyrocketing because a large red dragon had 25 Strength pre-buffs. >_>
My biggest thing is, the wizard (or sorcerer) would be way more effective just being a wizard or sorcerer, but they want these spells to be fun, and if you're a transmutator, your whole shtick revolves around buffing and transforming into stuff. I don't believe that you can simply be good at it by casting a spell and having this feat. Further, I believe that the amount of investment in it means you are weakening yourself as a wizard and playing more like a cleric or druid than not.
Can you show me how?
Ok, so some players might get multi-attak but most won't. It is not very important either way. I wasn't sure on powerful bite so I included without in the stats too.
They also don't get the 1.5 Strength or Power Attack on their bite damage like real dragons do. :P
Fighter's suck a fairly good deal, but they do not suck at fighting (even though they might not be the absolute best at it) and that is what I am comparing the wizard to right now.
Eh, they're pretty sucky at fighting too. They are below every other martial in core, save maybe the Barbarian (at ranged attacks) in terms of combat utility, adaptability, and most of the time offense (Paladins and Rangers can get huge bonuses to hit, and Barbarians are pretty solid toe to toe since the inclusion of adaptive bows and furious weapons).
My question is basically, why? Why are we comparing them to Fighters? If we absolutely must compare them to fighters, can't we at least compare them to fighters that make use of things like Dazing Assault and Stunning Assault? Or a fighter using a Reach weapon and Catch Off Guard? Or compare the fact that the fighter can conveniently murder something from 110+ ft. away?
I don't get what this obsession is with fighters. Let's compare them to a barbarian, a paladin, or a ranger. Something. Heck, I'll take a cleric to compare them to (clerics are the kings of buff->faceroll), since that's more like what we're describing (buff -> smash faces). Fighters are not very good. They have never been very good.
I didn't exactly go overboard with the provided stats and feats for the fighter or wizard but I think the picture is fairly accurate.
See, that's why it's not really accurate. In the example of the mage, we've invested no less than 3 feats into something that is only going to serve us when we are not acting like a mage (spell focus [transmutation], augment polymorph, arcane strike). I'd say that the spell focus would count, but we're going to have to tilt our ability scores around in an unfriendly way, so it might help to make up some of our casting disparity between ourselves and other wizards. We've also thrown in between 64,000 to 100,000 gp worth of amulet into the mix.
We haven't even looked at the stuff that the Fighter could be doing, and I don't even think Fighters are good. Yet even I know the value of things like Dazing Assault at 11th level, or Point Blank Master, or even goofy builds like unarmed fighters using Dazing Assault + Cockatrice Strike to petrify enemies with their attacks. :\
Lets ignore the beast shape spells and focus on the pllymorph spells that will allow you to keep Spell casting.Okay, I'll go through all of them with you. :)
Alter self.Your AC sucks. You're still an arcane caster with no armor proficiencies. That's kind of a problem. You might have 3 attacks (1d6/1d4/1d4) with the right form, but you're kind of a joke unless you can get the attacks off (and have invested strongly in Strength). The cost of doing all of this? Heavy point buy sacrifices and lots of spell slots (we're talking mage armor, shield every fight, enlarge person if you want to get reach) and what's still sad is you're only getting maybe 1-3 combats out of it per day (at 3rd level, 2nd level spells are your highest level spells, and it only lasts 1 min / level).
This is also the first place where I point out the major flaw with the "I can fight and cast spells". You can't do that very effectively. You are either fighting, or you are casting spells. If you are casting spells, your feats and point buy is wasted. If you are fighting, you're not a wizard anymore.
Monsterous physique.This is beast shape I but you can cast spells. Again, same issues. +2 Str / +2 Natural armor, at 5th level. Your AC is still pretty bad more than likely and you're sacrificing 3rd level spells for 5 minutes of buff.
Form of the dragonThis is the real worrisome one. This is really the only one that anyone should reasonably care about because it could actually get pretty strong since it gives nice Strength, Constitution, and Natural armor bonuses, and some nice natural attack routines (5 natural attacks or 6 with the better versions). Unfortunately, you're medium sized and at 11th level, and you must rely on full-attacking. At this level your AC might not be terrible (since at this point you have probably amassed deflection, dexterity, armor, and if you ate the 50% increase, natural armor bonuses all contributing...
My exampel was hastly written a bit up thread it was only
"At level 8 a sorcerer with a shapechange focus(abherrent line pehaps) would be looking at (with a starting str of 16) str 22 somthing like 6 times +12 to hit and 1d6+13 damage with a + 2 str belt and a AoMF +1, with spells like Mage armor, shield, and mirror image he will even be ok defensively also. ad on spells like heroism, displacement and false life.I know that you will not have unlimitet buff rounds but this guy is ok with just the long time buffs and monstrous physique.
Hmm now i want to play this guy:("
I was takling about using the Calikang as a form.
In a 15 point game he will have 16 in str and cha because of versatile human, and he will have 12 in con and 13 in dex. Like every body else in a 15 point game he will feel the pain of being MAD.
spell focus at 1 agumentet polymorf at 3 and power attack at 5 at 7 he gets toughness and improved initiative.
He will be offensively weak against moving enemies but not more than a TWF Ranger.
Give him +1 equipment and +2 on str and con and he will be fine and well within WBL. With spells like Mage armor, mirror image and false life he will survive melee combat just fine.
Yes he will be unimpressive in fortitude save and against the different kind of DR. But he will still have a few spells to annoy baddies that wont be impressed with his melee abilities.
If we absolutely must compare them to fighters, can't we at least compare them to fighters that make use of things like Dazing Assault and Stunning Assault? Or a fighter using a Reach weapon and Catch Off Guard?
Is a Reach weapon and Catch Off Guard? a good combo?
For me you can compare the Polymorphling to any class that solve its problems in melee.
yes Dazing assult will kill this guy just like it kills all onortodox melee guys. And just like Dazing spell kills them at range.
But it seems that, just like with the dispel argument, what you are shooting down is the concept. This guy will be worthless in your game even with the new feat. Or am i reading you wrong?