My character is becoming problematic


Advice

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So I'm playing a high level sorcerer in Carrion crown, and I've run into a bit of a problem, I'm too effective.

I'm a fireball sorcerer lvl 15 with one point of metamagic adjust and the following feats (omitting some due to irrelevance): Intensify spell, empower spell, selective spell, piercing spell, elemental spell: acid, quicken spell.

I just leveled to 15 and keep in mind that asside from the metamagic adjust and the metamagic, and a high casting stat I'm not really optimized. I'm not the right race, I'm not a synergistic bloodline (like orc or something). I just took the feats and a point of metamagic adjust. (Well, maybe I'm optimal-ish, but I'm not min-maxed)

However If I nova something at this level that's 44d6 with 2 dc 22 saves for half. (one normal fireball, one quickened) against something with a poor reflex that's just about death, even if not I just could do it again the next round and then that is death.

Also I'm hard to kill, mirror image (easily quickened in a pinch), protection from energy communal, stoneskin communal, and 173 hp (AC 11 but who cares?)

I'm hard to fool with see invisibility, and true seeing, and I'll probably pick up a scroll of spell knowledge dark vision.

Anyways I can nova all day being a full sorcerer with a high casting stat, and I don't want to ruin everyone's fun (including the GM's) by one rounding all the hard bosses, I mean I can easily out damage the gunslinger, and he's a gunslinger. At the same time I don't want to just sit on my thumbs just casting a few buffs like haste when needed, it doesn't make that much sense for a character who can make a difference not to do it, just so his allies can have a hard fight.

Any solutions that don't involve remaking my character weaker? A rp solution would be great. My character is a bit irrational, think gnome-ish though not a gnome. Also he is a diabolist with a wand wielding imp (so far not much of an issue, but I've only bought him a wand of magic missile lvl 5, a scorching ray wand may make him more of an issue which may be comming).

Thanks in advance.


Maybe get caught in one of your fireballs, develop a fear of fire/acid/whatever, that manifests as an x% spell fail chance. Or, how's your relationship to your imp? Could he be the vader to your palpatine at just the wrong time?

Edit: you could be cursed to cast like a rod of wonder...that might be fun.

Sovereign Court

If you want an RP solution, it would be nice to have more information about your character, party, and campaign. Other than that... I would try shaking it up and using blasts other than Fireball. Pick up, say, Dragon Breath, and have fun blasting people with that. Try to figure out new ways to use your spells other than simply blast, blast, blast.

Honestly, though, if you've been dominating encounters, particularly boss monsters, your GM should have taken steps to counter you. There are plenty of ways to grant resistance/immunity to fire and/or acid, or get you to waste your blasts on illusions... Heck, since you don't have heighten spell, your Fireball is useless against anyone with a Globe of Lesser Invulnerability. He could also dispel your protections and grapple you, or nail you with a Feeblemind or Dominate Person. And you know what happens when the blaster gets Dominated...

Sovereign Court

What part of the AP are you? Level 15 should be very close to the end. If you are not near the end then the GM has either leveled you too quickly or has given side quests. This sounds more like a GM issue to me. I have a sorcerer in my carrrion crown game with all your same abilities and I nearly kill him every session.


There's absolutely nothing with choosing to hold back. If you've been such a badass, then you don't throw your full potential behind it because 'he's not worth that much effort' to incinerate. If your character is cautious, then you're 'holding back in case of an emergency'.


Quote:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with choosing to hold back.

I think that's what you meant.

Scarab Sages

High level casters are going to make the martials look bad. Period. Just like at level 3 the martials are going to make the casters look bad. Its how things are in Pathfinder/3.x. Otherwise you are playing 4e.

That said, your DM really should be taking steps to neutralize your fireball nova. The before-mentioned lesser globe is just one way.


Hogeyhead wrote:
, and 173 hp (AC 11 but who cares?)

Just curious, are you including the stoneskin HP's in this number?

With a D6 hit die you would have to roll a 6 almost every level and have at least a +6 con bonus to get that many hit point at level 15 as a sorc.

Your averaging 11.5 HP a level.

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you're a 15th level blaster sorc... enjoy it. there are all kinds of ways you can get shut down (SR, globe of invulnerability, fire immunity or resistance, evasion, plus there's always the chance that an enemy will get on you and try to use readied attacks to interrupt your spells) so take advantage of every opportunity when you're not. if it really does become problematic your GM will use those obstacles (and if the issue is that he's too inexperienced to think of it, just show him this post)


@Renard globe of lesser invulnerability wouldn't work on my fireballs for the same reason that a lesser metamagic rod wouldn't work, the meta magics make the effective level higher, even if it's not heighten. Also while you are right there are counters to it, he is running an AP, so I understand why he wouldn't want to redo every encounter to deal with me. Also the vulnerability issue is one I've thought of and countered. Illusion? True seeing. Grapple? Flying constantly, mirror image, dimension door. Dominate? Will save +15 with a reroll in the pocket. I'll admit dominate is a valid concern, but I would get a reroll to attack my friends, at +17, so it is not likely to really stick.

Our party composition is a true neutral druid focusing on killing things in melee in wildshape, he really just prepares buffs each morning, and rarely uses his spells otherwise. A selfish gunslinger obsessed with gold, and an ugly god wizard. I'm the healer (samsaran with healing spells since our cleric left the group)

@Pan we are near the end, how do you kill the sorcerer? I'm well defended as I've stated, with 173 hp to boot.

@Zhayne I suppose this is probably the best solution. I'd just like there to be more of a reason than just holding back, If that is what I'm left with I will though.


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Hogeyhead wrote:
@Renard globe of lesser invulnerability wouldn't work on my fireballs for the same reason that a lesser metamagic rod wouldn't work, the meta magics make the effective level higher, even if it's not heighten.

As far as I know this is not correct. The only way to raise the EFFECTIVE level of a spell with Metamagic is to use Heighten Spell.

Run the way your intimating there would be no purple for Heighten Spell.


Gilfalas wrote:
Hogeyhead wrote:
, and 173 hp (AC 11 but who cares?)

Just curious, are you including the stoneskin HP's in this number?

With a D6 hit die you would have to roll a 6 almost every level and have at least a +6 con bonus to get that many hit point at level 15 as a sorc.

Your averaging 11.5 HP a level.

No I'm not including stoneskin, I've rolled well, have a con score of 22 (12, 4 inherent from bloodline, 6 from item) and all favored class bonuses into hp. that means dice roll +7 each level, in other words I've rolled 4.5 on average. This number also does not include false life which I cast religiously.


Gilfalas wrote:
Hogeyhead wrote:
@Renard globe of lesser invulnerability wouldn't work on my fireballs for the same reason that a lesser metamagic rod wouldn't work, the meta magics make the effective level higher, even if it's not heighten.

As far as I know this is not correct. The only way to raise the EFFECTIVE level of a spell with Metamagic is to use Heighten Spell.

Run the way your intimating there would be no purple for Heighten Spell.

The purpose of heighten spell is not to bypass globe of invulnerability, it is to increase spell DC.

Scarab Sages

Hogeyhead wrote:
Gilfalas wrote:
Hogeyhead wrote:
@Renard globe of lesser invulnerability wouldn't work on my fireballs for the same reason that a lesser metamagic rod wouldn't work, the meta magics make the effective level higher, even if it's not heighten.

As far as I know this is not correct. The only way to raise the EFFECTIVE level of a spell with Metamagic is to use Heighten Spell.

Run the way your intimating there would be no purple for Heighten Spell.

The purpose of heighten spell is not to bypass globe of invulnerability, it is to increase spell DC.

Not quite. It increases the DC by actually increasing it's spell level. Any other metamagic feat does not increase the spell level of the base spell. While your metamagic spells require a higher level slot, it is still a third level spell because it hasn't been heightened. A lesser globe of invulnerability will stop a quickened fireball just the same as a normal one, even though you blew a seventh level spell slot to cast it quickened.


nate lange wrote:
you're a 15th level blaster sorc... enjoy it. there are all kinds of ways you can get shut down (SR, globe of invulnerability, fire immunity or resistance, evasion, plus there's always the chance that an enemy will get on you and try to use readied attacks to interrupt your spells) so take advantage of every opportunity when you're not. if it really does become problematic you GM will use those obstacles (and if the issue is that he's too inexperienced to think of it, just show him this post)

SR peircing spell works quite well

Globe of invulnerability, well I think a metamagic'd up fireball bypasses that anyway, if not greater dispel is a spell I know.

Immunity to fire, is it also Immune to Acid? If not I don't care.

Evasion If someone actually does that to me I would just use a quickened Ill omen (samsaran)

Readied action - mirror image

What else do you have?


Imbicatus wrote:
Hogeyhead wrote:
Gilfalas wrote:
Hogeyhead wrote:
@Renard globe of lesser invulnerability wouldn't work on my fireballs for the same reason that a lesser metamagic rod wouldn't work, the meta magics make the effective level higher, even if it's not heighten.

As far as I know this is not correct. The only way to raise the EFFECTIVE level of a spell with Metamagic is to use Heighten Spell.

Run the way your intimating there would be no purple for Heighten Spell.

The purpose of heighten spell is not to bypass globe of invulnerability, it is to increase spell DC.
Not quite. It increases the DC by actually increasing it's spell level. Any other metamagic feat does not increase the spell level of the base spell. While your metamagic spells require a higher level slot, it is still a third level spell because it hasn't been heightened. A lesser globe of invulnerability will stop a quickened fireball just the same as a normal one, even though you blew a seventh level spell slot to cast it quickened.

Then why do I need higher than lesser metamagic rods to adjust my spells? You can't have it both ways. Either I bypass, and I get the rod at high cost, or I don't bypass and I get the rod at low cost.

Scarab Sages

Heighten Spell (Metamagic)

You can cast spells as if they were a higher level.

Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Emphasis mine.

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Hogeyhead wrote:
Gilfalas wrote:
Hogeyhead wrote:
@Renard globe of lesser invulnerability wouldn't work on my fireballs for the same reason that a lesser metamagic rod wouldn't work, the meta magics make the effective level higher, even if it's not heighten.

As far as I know this is not correct. The only way to raise the EFFECTIVE level of a spell with Metamagic is to use Heighten Spell.

Run the way your intimating there would be no purple for Heighten Spell.

The purpose of heighten spell is not to bypass globe of invulnerability, it is to increase spell DC.
Piercing Spell wrote:
All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

And I'm assuming you're using metamagic rods for your example of 44d6 from 2 fireballs in a turn? Otherwise you're not a high enough level for a quickened empowered fireball. If so, then you're looking at limited charges, so if you can do that "all day," then it sounds like your GM isn't making your days long enough.


Gilfalas wrote:
Hogeyhead wrote:
@Renard globe of lesser invulnerability wouldn't work on my fireballs for the same reason that a lesser metamagic rod wouldn't work, the meta magics make the effective level higher, even if it's not heighten.

As far as I know this is not correct. The only way to raise the EFFECTIVE level of a spell with Metamagic is to use Heighten Spell.

Run the way your intimating there would be no purple for Heighten Spell.

Yeah I thought meta-magic'd spells use higher slots but same effective spell level. Heighten is the exception.

EDIT: lots of ninjas around.


We had a player years ago in 2nd edition D&D that spammed fireballs all the time to the point of annoyance to the GM and all the players.

The GM had a very creative solution.

One day the player launched yet another fireball and standing in the fireballs aftermath was a fire elemental. The elemental moved toward the caster and spoke on behalf of the elemental lords that reside in the plane of fire. He stated something on the line of "your powers are granted by the lord of fire, abuse it at your own peril." With a strong implication that they would be repercussions should he continue to draw from his lords powers.

The player RP'd it well and gave a gift of a fire ruby to take back to his lords. From that point on the player would often sacrifice fire themed items and gems to the lords for the gift of flame.

I think it was a fun way of telling the player to cool it.

-MD


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Your save DC with fireballs is 22? Your Cha score is 28? Unless youve got some sweet magic items youdd need "Spell focus" & "Spell focus greater" for that, and they are pretty revelant to an optimised blaster.

If not then remember that metamagic doesnt increase the save DC of your spells. A maximised empowered fireball (Level 7 spell with your adjustment) will still have a save dc of 13+cha. This is why Heighten spell exists.

Also, metamagic discount effects apply only once to each spell, i say this becuse I dont understand how you cast 2 fireballs for 44d6 damage each round. (With the feats you mentioned the max damage i think would be 90 (maximised empowered fireball) + quickened intensified fireball 15d6, and thats still only the equivalent of 41d6 damage).

If i am entirely wrong (and it is likely I am) I am sorry for picking appart your post, Im working with what information I have here :)

If the character is just that good, then theres very little to be said other then find ways to help your teammates get the kills rather then yourself. Heres some recomendations:
Telekinetic charge: Throw your teammates at your opponents.
Ally teleportation spells from Players handbook 2, 3.5, if they are allowed.
Use your quicken spell feat to cast support or debuff spells rather then attack spells. A swift action Dimentional anchor is to be feared, and your allies will love you when you cast Invisibility Greater, Fly or Haste as a swift action.

If thats not enough ask your DM to up the difficulty for you personally, rouges popping into fights when you least expect it is sure to get your attention.

Still not good enough? Perhaps upping the difficulty in your "favor" can get you killed, and the poor sorcerer decides he likes it better in heaven than on earth.

Barring all that, who exactly are you using your balls of fire to blow up? Perhaps you could reach the conclusion that youre a psycho pyromaniac and need help.


Grimmy is correct. this got clarified in a faq IIRC.

Heighten allows a spell to have a higher DC and ability to punch through immunities and lesser globes of invulnerability like a higher level spell.

Also I believe that you cannot toss heighten on for free with spell perfection.

But all that aside, a 15th level caster is powerful. The APs were designed for a 15 point buy as well, so if you "rolled well," you have a serious advantage. If you want to nerf your guy down a bit, look up the faqs on how heighten and metamagic feats and rods all play together, and then rebuild your character's stats with a 15 point buy. After that, you can't help it if you're still eclipsing your party.

Dark Archive

A Quickened Fireball (for example) still works with a lesser metamagic rod even though you're using a 7th level slot you're casting a 3rd level spell and the rods work off spell level specifically, not casting slot used to memorise/cast. Also, do remember that for a Sorcerer using metamagic turns most spells into Full Round actions or more (with the obvious exception of Quicken), you're probably well aware but it does bear repeating I think.

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Suthainn wrote:
A Quickened Fireball (for example) still works with a lesser metamagic rod even though you're using a 7th level slot you're casting a 3rd level spell and the rods work off spell level specifically, not casting slot used to memorise/cast. Also, do remember that for a Sorcerer using metamagic turns most spells into Full Round actions or more (with the obvious exception of Quicken), you're probably well aware but it does bear repeating I think.

Nope, not according to the FAQ.

FAQ wrote:

Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?

The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.

For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.

In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.


Hogeyhead wrote:

Multiquote omitted.

Then why do I need higher than lesser metamagic rods to adjust my spells? You can't have it both ways. Either I bypass, and I get the rod at high cost, or I don't bypass and I get the rod at low cost.

Because you DO get your lesser metamagic rod silly :)

Example optimised fireball of a 15th level sorcerer:
Your Cha score is 24, for a bonus of +7.
Spell focus and Greater spell focus for save DC +2.
Metamagic discount -1.
Maximised +2.
Intensified +1.
Empowered +2.
Quickened (Metamagic rod) +0.
Total spell level: 7.
Save DC: 22.
Cast action: Swift.
Damage: 135.

2/Round = 270 damage.

Edit: Well damn, Ninja'd AND corrected! Well the above formula still stand true if you spend a medium rod on it :P

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

@OP- everything you described (in your response to my post) costs resources (feats spent, higher level spell slots used, actions used, whole extra spells)... i was by no means saying your guy was ineffective- you asked how to tone him down and i'm just pointing out ways that you GM can/should be doing that (since that should really be on him, not you). every time you have to cast a quickened ill omen you're not casting a quickened fireball that round (just cut your damage in half that round...); every time you have to cast greater dispel magic you're not casting a metamagicked up fireball (plus you probably wasted an action and spell finding out it was there in the first place).

part of the problem could also be the number of encounters per day (and their duration)... if you're only fighting like 4-8 rounds in a given day its easy to throw around tons of quickened spells and whatnot all the time but if you get into 3 or 4 encounters that last 4 or 5 rounds each you'll run out of high level spell slots pretty quickly (at least, the way it sounds like you throw spells around you would). if none of the other players are blowing through resources each day you could talk to the GM about increasing encounter duration/frequency as a means of letting others be challenged more (and it could be a new challenge for you to work on your resource management).

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Hogeyhead wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Hogeyhead wrote:
Gilfalas wrote:
Hogeyhead wrote:
@Renard globe of lesser invulnerability wouldn't work on my fireballs for the same reason that a lesser metamagic rod wouldn't work, the meta magics make the effective level higher, even if it's not heighten.

As far as I know this is not correct. The only way to raise the EFFECTIVE level of a spell with Metamagic is to use Heighten Spell.

Run the way your intimating there would be no purple for Heighten Spell.

The purpose of heighten spell is not to bypass globe of invulnerability, it is to increase spell DC.
Not quite. It increases the DC by actually increasing it's spell level. Any other metamagic feat does not increase the spell level of the base spell. While your metamagic spells require a higher level slot, it is still a third level spell because it hasn't been heightened. A lesser globe of invulnerability will stop a quickened fireball just the same as a normal one, even though you blew a seventh level spell slot to cast it quickened.
Then why do I need higher than lesser metamagic rods to adjust my spells? You can't have it both ways. Either I bypass, and I get the rod at high cost, or I don't bypass and I get the rod at low cost.

According to the FAQ on metamagic, a spell counts as higher or the original level based on what is worse for the caster. So it counts as third level when trying (and failing) to bypass a lesser globe of invulnerability, but counts as higher when using metamagic rods.


nate lange wrote:
Quote text omitted.

This is very important!

When the players are in control of their adventuring day and time it all to often becomes a 15 minute adventuring day, with excessive resting used to keep up spell alotments.

Dark Archive

Interesting, the more you know! Thanks for pointing out the FAQ RainyDayNinja, I hadn't seen that. So you get the worst of both worlds now, the spell counts as the base level without metamagic enhancements (bar Heighten) and yet you need the higher level Rods to cast it using them.

Seems like that should actually go a long way towards balancing your character Hogeyhead.


Hmm, about the globes of invulnerability and metamagic rods, well I guess house rules just give me the worst of both worlds. But you guys are right raw fireball does not pierce a globe without heighten. However keep in mind in that case I would just spam greater dispel magic and quickened dispel magic till all buffs were gone. (Which I really can do)

As to people wondering how I do 44d6 without metamagic rods? Well first I do not use maximize in any way, nor do I use rods in any way. I use one point of metamagic adjust, and spell perfection. This makes a intensified empowered fireball a third level spell, and an intensified empowered quickened fireball a fifth level spell. I did say in the opening post that I had spell perfection.

Yes I have 28 cha 18 lvl 1 +3 level up +1 inherent in story, +6 enhance =28

I think I will talk to my gm about redoing my char with standard 15 point buy, but I don't think this will change much. Still it's probably an appropriate gesture.

Edit: Ninja'd by people explaining that worst of both worlds is RAW not a house rule.


nate lange wrote:
if you get into 3 or 4 encounters that last 4 or 5 rounds each you'll run out of high level spell slots pretty quickly (at least, the way it sounds like you throw spells around you would).

How many battles are going to last four or five rounds if you can wipe out enemies in one to two rounds on your own?

I'd suggest casting Haste or a defensive buff or something to reduce the enemy's movements on the first round of combat instead of always going with the fireballs.


Suthainn wrote:

Interesting, the more you know! Thanks for pointing out the FAQ RainyDayNinja, I hadn't seen that. So you get the worst of both worlds now, the spell counts as the base level without metamagic enhancements (bar Heighten) and yet you need the higher level Rods to cast it using them.

Seems like that should actually go a long way towards balancing your character Hogeyhead.

Yeah that should make a big difference. Play for a few sessions with your new understanding of metamagic, and see if the problem gets better.


Hogeyhead wrote:

@Renard globe of lesser invulnerability wouldn't work on my fireballs for the same reason that a lesser metamagic rod wouldn't work, the meta magics make the effective level higher, even if it's not heighten. Also while you are right there are counters to it, he is running an AP, so I understand why he wouldn't want to redo every encounter to deal with me. Also the vulnerability issue is one I've thought of and countered. Illusion? True seeing. Grapple? Flying constantly, mirror image, dimension door. Dominate? Will save +15 with a reroll in the pocket. I'll admit dominate is a valid concern, but I would get a reroll to attack my friends, at +17, so it is not likely to really stick.

Our party composition is a true neutral druid focusing on killing things in melee in wildshape, he really just prepares buffs each morning, and rarely uses his spells otherwise. A selfish gunslinger obsessed with gold, and an ugly god wizard. I'm the healer (samsaran with healing spells since our cleric left the group)

@Pan we are near the end, how do you kill the sorcerer? I'm well defended as I've stated, with 173 hp to boot.

@Zhayne I suppose this is probably the best solution. I'd just like there to be more of a reason than just holding back, If that is what I'm left with I will though.

If you are spamming dispel magic then you are not using fireballs so that will make the fight longer. It also takes away resources. Your GM needs to adjust the AP also. You may not see yourself as optimized but you actually are, and AP's don't do well against optimized characters.


My Gm just refused to let me reduce my character's point buy to 15, so I guess I'll just act less optimally.


wraithstrike wrote:
Hogeyhead wrote:

@Renard globe of lesser invulnerability wouldn't work on my fireballs for the same reason that a lesser metamagic rod wouldn't work, the meta magics make the effective level higher, even if it's not heighten. Also while you are right there are counters to it, he is running an AP, so I understand why he wouldn't want to redo every encounter to deal with me. Also the vulnerability issue is one I've thought of and countered. Illusion? True seeing. Grapple? Flying constantly, mirror image, dimension door. Dominate? Will save +15 with a reroll in the pocket. I'll admit dominate is a valid concern, but I would get a reroll to attack my friends, at +17, so it is not likely to really stick.

Our party composition is a true neutral druid focusing on killing things in melee in wildshape, he really just prepares buffs each morning, and rarely uses his spells otherwise. A selfish gunslinger obsessed with gold, and an ugly god wizard. I'm the healer (samsaran with healing spells since our cleric left the group)

@Pan we are near the end, how do you kill the sorcerer? I'm well defended as I've stated, with 173 hp to boot.

@Zhayne I suppose this is probably the best solution. I'd just like there to be more of a reason than just holding back, If that is what I'm left with I will though.

If you are spamming dispel magic then you are not using fireballs so that will make the fight longer. It also takes away resources. Your GM needs to adjust the AP also. You may not see yourself as optimized but you actually are, and AP's don't do well against optimized characters.

Yeah, I guess you are right, I suppose he is optimal. It just was not really intentional


... for example I have a build similar to yours that is currently running amok through Jade Regent.

If you look at that AP, there is a whole module devoted to going through icy areas overland, so all the encounters are a fireball sorcerer with a range advantage and full spells against fire vunerable creatures. The rest of the party makes popcorn.

Liberty's Edge

have you interred book 6? think you may find, you will have problems


It may just be that level of play is ridiculous. When my master summoner reaches 15 he'll have summon good monster at summon monster VIII and dimensional savant so he flanks with himself when he dervishes. I'm looking forward to it. I just advise enjoying the show. :)


I don't see why you should have to hold back. It's his job to challenge you.

But if the main problem are these fireballs I have a side note. I've never played in a game where fireballing the enemy was a viable option every fight.

That's a big, loud explosion. Need to fight quietly? Fireball is out. Close quarters like a small room in a dungeon? You're going to toast yourself and your friends. In a city? Collateral damage. Wide open field of battle? Ok now we're talking but the enemies might be spread out, now you are using an AoE to do single target damage, kind of wasteful.

Don't these things come up in your games? Fireballs are awesome but in our games they are the wrong spell for at least half the fights I would say.


Grimmy wrote:

I don't see why you should have to hold back. It's his job to challenge you.

But if the main problem are these fireballs I have a side note. I've never played in a game where fireballing the enemy was a viable option every fight.

That's a big, loud explosion. Need to fight quietly? Fireballs out. Close quarters like a small room in a dungeon? You're going to toast yourself and your friends. In a city? Collateral damage. Wide open field of battle? Ok now we're talking but the enemies might be spread out, now you are using an AoE to do single target damage, kind of wasteful.

Don't these things come up in your games? Fireballs are awesome but in our games they are the wrong spell for at least half the fights I would say.

The fun part about being a sorcerer is having 40 other spells to use if fireball isn't a good choice at the moment.


I see a few things.
Sounds like you were accidentally misinterpreting a few rules in your benefit. Not an accusation, those specific ones are fairly common.

A lot of the things you were saying you could do (greater dispel, true seeing, etc...) still take time and knowledge. Why would you have cast true seeing before you know there is an illusion. Why would you cast greater dispelling before you know he has a globe of invulnerability. Why would you cast an acid ball until you cast a fire ball and see that it doesn't work. Even then, how do you know which element to switch to. So you will use a spell or 2 finding out that you need the counter. Then cast the counter. Then you can start to take effect.

If the other PC's can't have some effect in 3 rounds that is at least partially their problem.

It also sounds like maybe the GM is giving you too much information too easily. How do you know it is a lesser globe of invulnerability and not just high SR? How do you know the guy has a ring of fire resistance? Etc...

I haven't yet gotten as far in Carrion Crown as you have, but we have encountered quite a few creatures that have really high SR and/or are immune to many types of magic. We are also finding we often have quite a few difficult fights in a single day. So my oracle has to be very careful not to blow through all his high level spells too quickly. A couple of times we have gotten to the boss fights and I have virtually no spells left to contribute. Sounds like you are planning to blow through every fight with 3-4 of you highest level spells at the start of every fight. That should not be sustainable.

You also commented something like the GM doesn't want to change the AP. I also used to want to run like that. Unfortunately it just isn't really very feasible. PF is a huge system and the AP's have to be designed around some lowest-common-denominator-average-party capabilities. So things just plain have to be adjusted.

In game it also just makes sense. The bad guys are intelligent and powerful. You have been stomping on their underlings and catching up to them for weeks. Why would they not adjust their strategies to counter the obvious threat closing in on them?


jjaamm wrote:
have you interred book 6? think you may find, you will have problems

Super looking forward to it. Our GM got burned out so that campaign is on hold for a while and I took over GMing with something different. Like the OP, I have put some thought into having backups and versatility, so I definitely want to see how it all works when the fire-immunes start showing up in droves.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

What exactly is Metamagic Adjust and where can it be found?


Look at the trait Magical Lineage. I think it's that.


Thanks guys you've been helpful

@Grimmy there are a few problems with your objections. First it is not a big loud explosion, a fireball has no concussive element, it is just expanding fire and makes no more noise than a normal fire that size. You are more likely to be heard casting than to be given away by a fireball. I could be mistaken on this but I'm pretty sure I'm not.

Close quarters? Selective spell.

Wide open feild? You got me there, of course there will be a lot of problems for enemies not having each other's support against our group, that's bassically suicide really. I'd just put up a wall of force and we would deal with one half while the other half tries to deal with the obstacle. Then I'd dismiss the wall, two easy fights. But you are right I may not use fireball in that situation.


nate lange wrote:
you're a 15th level blaster sorc... enjoy it. there are all kinds of ways you can get shut down (SR, globe of invulnerability, fire immunity or resistance, evasion, plus there's always the chance that an enemy will get on you and try to use readied attacks to interrupt your spells) so take advantage of every opportunity when you're not. if it really does become problematic your GM will use those obstacles (and if the issue is that he's too inexperienced to think of it, just show him this post)

Pretty much this.

I am also playing this AP right now with a sorcerer (as well). IMO it is not necessarily your fault that you are too effective. I don't know how your GM has modified (if he did at all) the enemy strategies, concerning, battles mostly, but what the game suggests is, well, bad.

As Nate stated, it really comes down to your GM "controlling" you and your power by certain counter spells and enemy tactics.

You can break a campaign, especially one that is a bit centered around a specific theme like this one, by picking key-spells,

Spoiler:
i picked command undead for example and later i stopped overusing it because it was way too effective
, but that is not the case with your char.

Also, aren't you a bit late for this? I think the game ends at 16 level or something?


Well, I'm not trying to "get you" I was just wondering why those kinds of things don't come up because they do in all the games I've played.

Liberty's Edge

Of course the DM could just have an enemy grapple, grab, trip, etc. Because with an 11 AC you probably have no defensive stats, so your CMD is around 18ish? At that level everything should be a worry.


Grimmy wrote:

I don't see why you should have to hold back. It's his job to challenge you.

But it's his job to find a harmonious balance with the rest of the players. And if he feels he's outclassing them, it's his job to adjust to them not them to him.


How experienced is your GM? Some of this sounds like maybe the GM hasn't been doing this for too long. There are a lot of in-game perfectly legitimate strategies for making a casters life very difficult.

But if you GM has never/rarely run games for high level casters, he may not know to use them. Things like black tentacles, ice storm, summoned air elementals, etc... can make casting difficult.

You might gently suggest the possibility that he could come here for some ideas on how to adjust his bad guy tactics.

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