Succubus disguised to look like Iomedae...


Advice


So one of my players in sword of valor accepted the succubus profane gift as he was told she could help him fight evil. Note he did not sense motive or tried to detect any falsifications. He now believes Iomedae has granted him power to fight evil. How should I handle this? I did tell him the power seed or whatever you want to call it feels darker than he expected after having a vision of Iomedae in the first AP of WotR.


IMO:

You should have secretly rolled for the player. But Succubi are at bardic levels for bluff (and if I advanced them, would give them levels of inquisitor(infiltrator)), so I don't know if he even stood a chance.

Having said that... she may pull her gift at any moment, usually at a dramatic moment. Don't metagame. She needs to somehow find out when the best time to sabotage her recipient is...


From Profane Gift:
"As long as the profane gift persists, the succubus can communicate telepathically with the target across any distance (and may use her suggestion spell-like ability through it)."

Sounds like the perfect time to start telling the player he needs to make questionably moral choices through telepathic communication and suggestion. That's what succubi do after all. Power through coercion.


I actually had the paladin roll a sense motive but she rolled bad and didn't pick up on anything. Was thinking along the same line Karg. I didn't use OOC knowledge on him, was very careful to only use the visual and audible clues the PC's gave out while in the room with her.


The thing that sucks for him is he was wanting to take his first level in paladin next time we up. To make it worse he was going to choose Iomedae as his goddess. Should I have Konneshka(succubus) try to lead him down the anti-paladin path or would that not work(as in have to want the anti-paladin power and could not get it without being obvious).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

You could lead him down the path of antipaladin but usually I would find it more dramatic, if you keep sending him on quest trying to prove himself to Iomedae that he is worthy to become her paladin while advancing her agenda. Then discover at the appropriate that the quest he had been doing was a lie along and he branded his soul for eternity to the Abyss. That's something most people forget the demons unlike the devils don't have specific contracts when they claim your soul, you are essentially damned when you accept their gifts.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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What I would probably do is this:
He takes his level of Paladin and gains all the Paladin powers, because he has no clue that he's NOT a Paladin of Iomedae. At some point, though, Iomedae will probably take notice, and strip his powers from him. Especially if Konneshka is using her suggestion ability to manipulate him into less-than-good acts.

At the point where his powers are stripped from him, have it be an incredibly traumatic experience for him, and then have Konneshka show up looking like Iomedae's herald but a sort of "dark" version of her, and say that his goddess has willed that he must use a new form of power that will allow him to defeat more poweful enemies.

At that point, he can become an Antipaladin of the same level. Then if he ever gets out from under the succubus's heel, he can attempt redemption, etc.


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I'd probably have Iomedae send him some omens or dreams, nudging him toward the right path.


I do not know the AP, but i would suggest to handle this with pure roleplaying.

Start sending him morale questionable missions. Start with something small, but the more mission it should be clear that something is odd.

See if the paladin refuse to obbey an evil command even if he thinks it comes from Iomedae herself.


Nicos wrote:

I do not know the AP, but i would suggest to handle this with pure roleplaying.

Start sending him morale questionable missions. Start with something small, but the more mission it should be clear that something is odd.

See if the paladin refuse to obbey an evil command even if he thinks it comes from Iomedae herself.

Make sure he understands that this is an option, though.

Also, depending on your character interactions, you might help him by knowledge (religion) checks (the PC or someone else in the party/allied) explaining that he might be being "tested".

And if anyone just happens to have a detect evil effect running, they should be able to notice it on the paladin.

I'd say there are several options to learn the truth.

Also, the succubus has every method of manipulating him, but none that actually allow her to see what's going on with him. If she, say, slips up and commands him to do something nonsensical in the midst of a point in time where it simply doesn't apply...

And if the PC does fall, I'd recommend making it easy for them to regain their graces. They were deceived, and may potentially feel cheated out of power.

Regardless, make sure the player is generally on board with having his or her (it's a little vague) character... messed with... a bit.

Scarab Sages

I know most people don't roleplay training when multi-classing into a new class, but this is one instance where I would demand the player seek out a NPC paladin trainer. As part of the training process the NPC Paladin will cast detect evil, then there will some 'splainin to do.


The character in question is a male named Kaiser wants to be a paladin(currently a bard). There is a female paladin in the group named Birgette the one who tried a sense motive but failed. Hope that clears it up a little also thanks for the suggestions ya'll.


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Is the player aware of all this, or are they, like the character, in the dark (no pun intended)?

You're treading dangerous ground if the latter. A player may freak out when they find they've been trying to play a paragon of virtue only to be screwed out of their powers by a succubus-wielding DM. Some would feel their character had been ruined for having fallen in the first place. Hell, I've known players who'd scream, get up and walk, and/or punch the DM in the face.

Many would forget to detect evil when presented with an image of their goddess. It would be almost insulting.


Okay I think my first post was unclear, the PC in question is not yet a paladin only wants to be when he levels up, so he cannot fall right now. As for the detect evil part that Jaelithe mentioned, the party currently has a paladin of Iomedae that failed her sense motive and didn't use detect evil because she thought it would be insulting and I would have to agree with the Jaelithe and the player.


Isn't it a bit unusual for a god to personally visit someone who was contemplating becoming a 1st level Paladin?

Seems that alone would merit some suspicion.


Democratus, Wrath of the Righteous is a mythic adventure path. The PC likely has a few mythic tiers, making such an event slightly more plausible.


Already has visted them in a dream/vision.


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If the character is behaving in a lawful good manner, there's nothing wrong with him becoming a paladin... until he tries to call on the goddess he serves for the special powers of a paladin. Since Iomedae hasn't accepted his service, he won't get any result. Which should lead to questions and some good RP exploration of what's going on.

Simply accepting the gift in good faith doesn't disqualify him for paladinhood, by the way. And it certainly doesn't change his alignment to evil; it takes evil actions for that to happen.


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The next time the current paladin uses her Detect Evil she should notice his sudden dark aura. Use the telepathy thing liberally, having the succubus question his choices and showing him "alternate paths" (read; Dark Path) that he might want to consider. Succubus are subtle, but they are also demons, so she might get a little impatient and push things, perhaps giving herself away. Since she has managed to dupe a potential paladin into accepting her gift, she would likely be telepathically "riding" him almost exclusively to make sure he turns, or at least cause him maximum pain when he realizes his mistake.


RAW: Paladins don't need a divine sponsor, so he can still become a paladin...


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Joex The Pale wrote:
Succubus are subtle, but they are also demons, so she might get a little impatient and push things, perhaps giving herself away. Since she has managed to dupe a potential paladin into accepting her gift, she would likely be telepathically "riding" him almost exclusively to make sure he turns, or at least cause him maximum pain when he realizes his mistake.

Succubi ain't stupid, though, and with a paladin in close proximity, she needs to subtly move him along, and then bring him irrevocably into the fold in one fell swoop, so as to avoid Miss Goody-Two-Shoes intervening and ... hmmph ... 'redeeming' him.

She'll err on the side of caution until the moment comes.

Alternately, you could make her a young and inexperienced succubus, relying too much on her cleverness and allure and too little on circumspection. Perhaps she overplays her hand and gives your heroes a chance to say, "Ah ha!"?

Scarab Sages

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The player is going to be really screwed when the profane gift is finally removed either way. 2d6 CHA drain no save is going to cripple spellcasting and bardic music at least. If he has turned paladin too it will kill his ability to smite, lay on hands, and his bonus to saves.

Since drain is permanent until magically healed you will need to track down restoration spells, which ay be difficult depending on party makeup and level.


thotham wrote:
The character in question is a male named Kaiser wants to be a paladin(currently a bard). There is a female paladin in the group named Birgette the one who tried a sense motive but failed. Hope that clears it up a little also thanks for the suggestions ya'll.
thotham wrote:
Okay I think my first post was unclear, the PC in question is not yet a paladin only wants to be when he levels up, so he cannot fall right now. As for the detect evil part that Jaelithe mentioned, the party currently has a paladin of Iomedae that failed her sense motive and didn't use detect evil because she thought it would be insulting and I would have to agree with the Jaelithe and the player.

Those do help clear things up, thanks!

... also, I juuuuuuuuuuust realized that this was a Wrath of the Righteous spoiler thread, and I'm playing that game at some point in the future. Hm. WELP, too late now. (I originally found this along the side of the site, and didn't realize where it was from, not paying too much attention to the "WotR" at the beginning because I really didn't care. Oops.)

The point that I was trying to make, that Jaelith did already, is that the succubus managed to hoodwink the bard (and the paladin), but that doesn't really matter. The player should, at some point or another, have the ability to discover the treachery, and fix the problem.

Unless she's got some sort of scrying ability unusual to most succubi, she doesn't have the ability to see what's happening. She could thus use this "accidentally". This could be a point of discovery.

Unless she only ever uses her detect evil as a move action, the paladin might "scan" the bard. This could be a point of discovery.

I don't know the details about what's in that AP, but if there's ever another paladin, s/he may well scan the PCs, just to make sure it's them and that s/he can trust them. If she notices the evil eminating from the Kaiser the Bard, s/he might take the actual (current) paladin aside and let her know that she shouldn't trust that guy - which could be a point of discovery.

In all of these cases, the succubus' profane gift could be discovered and undone. And since the succubus can't necessarily see if something is happening, it might be undone without her realizing it. She can communicate telepathically, but I'd suggest allowing a bluff v. sense motive each time, rolled secretly, with bonuses if she's suggesting things that are out of character. You could also let a "random" (actually quite purposeful) item drop include, say, a couple of extra Phylacteries of Faithfulness (perhaps bound up in normal charisma-enhancing circlets) for the paladin and would-be paladin. (I wouldn't worry about strict WBL - just give them a free pass at the Phylacteries, unless your PCs are really munchkiny with money.) This could help resolve the situation, too, as he goes to "talk with his goddess"... and gets a warning...

Ultimately, however, make sure the player is okay with this kind of thing. They need to be on-board with it, if you're going to mess with their character.

Anyway, good luck and good gaming.

EDIT: and with that, I'm ducking out of the thread. :/

EDIT 2: but other people posted and I read it, so...
1) Play the succubus in a way that's most fun for the player. What might really be interesting is if the player actually somehow manages to sweet-talk the succubus into redemption...

2) the "evil aura" I'm mentioning comes from the Profane Gift, not the player. I was not meaning that he automatically turned evil - far from it, in fact, as he's acting in good faith. I thought the gift left an evil aura... I'll have to check.

3)

Imbicatus wrote:

The player is going to be really screwed when the profane gift is finally removed either way. 2d6 CHA drain no save is going to cripple spellcasting and bardic music at least. If he has turned paladin too it will kill his ability to smite, lay on hands, and his bonus to saves.

Since drain is permanent until magically healed you will need to track down restoration spells, which ay be difficult depending on party makeup and level.

I believe that if removed by spell, it doesn't damage the guy.

In fact, succubus...
(warning, picture of a not safe for work mini, there...)
... yeah, only the succubus purposefully removing it deals the damage.

So, a nice knowledge (planes) check to identify what that evil aura might be, and viola.

Although, I submit, that it does not say that an evil aura is produced, so that could cause problems with my above-mentioned scenarios, though it does add a profane bonus, thus indicating evil... so... *shrug*

An alternate might be Detect Magic or Arcane Sight, since it's an (Su).

Anyway, now I'm leaving.

Happy gaming!


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You could also employ artistic license/DM fiat and allow the paladin's detect evil to make some sort of distinction between 'truly evil' and 'evil hovering about him somewhat' or 'evil present within him but not truly a part of him ... yet.'

Whatever makes it more fun and fair for everyone.


The player of Kaiser is not totally aware of the exact details, and is a metagame master, so much it has led to the death of one of his past characters. So no he is not aware exactly. That being said the player is all RP and just loves the story side of all are games so that I am not afraid to do this to him. 100% sure he will not be upset. Also I like Jaelithe's idea of detect evil showing something is amiss.


darkwarriorkarg wrote:
RAW: Paladins don't need a divine sponsor, so he can still become a paladin...

Not in golarion.


Nicos wrote:
darkwarriorkarg wrote:
RAW: Paladins don't need a divine sponsor, so he can still become a paladin...
Not in golarion.

Actually, Clerics are the only ones that need a specific Divine Patron in Golarion, per James Jacobs.

EDIT:... I... I forgot I was going to leave this thread alooooooone.
*clicks on the X button to help me ignore it*
EDIT 2: Well, I will, once I have the option.

Shadow Lodge

Before I start.. you have to know your party and your player and know that what I'm going to suggest is going to be perceived as fun.

Make full use of the succubus tricks but in a subtle way, let her speak as teh voice of Iomedae, try to avoid forcing suggestions as much as possible and try to make the would be paladin fall into the antipaladin territory, possibly by giving him reasonable explainations on how he is doing what he's doing for the greater good.

Don't notify him about any alignment change, and when he choose to be a paladin don't tell him that you are secretly switching him into anti-paladin.

Secretly treat every power of the paladin that is not obvious as it's opposite anti-paladin version.

As the succubus, spin a story about the corrupting power of the abyss tampering with divine powers to justify the lay of hands and cruelties.

When detecting evil, he will actually detect good and sense "wrongness" in people who are good.

Of course, sooner or later he will realize something is not right, even without metagaming. That's when the succubus should try to use suggestion in a more aggressive way. When he manage to free himself from the profane gift (I assume they will at least try to) give them the chance to hunt down the succubus.
At that point make an offer and let the anti-paladin (if that's possible... the anti-paladin alone) make the choice.
Accept the succubus as his guide in the willing descent into darkness or stop her machinations and atone from his sins.
considering that he has been manipulated all along, true repentance should send him an atonement spell away from lawful-good paladinhood.

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