Would it upset you as a player?


Advice

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You are playing a Switch hitter: you fire an arrow, drop your bow and quickdraws you greatsword and engages the enemy.
A round later, an enemy picks up the bow, and uses it/sunder it, runs away with it. How would you feel about this, as a player?

Asmo


I'd have no problem with it at all. It's a chance you have to take if you relinquish a weapon in a hostile situation. I don't expect a GM to treat my gear with any more respect than any other in game object, and I won't burst into tears and cry foul because the game isn't letting me win.

I prefer games where these kind of things can happen. It makes for better, more intelligent role play I find.


I do not see a solid case argument to sunder it, the other things I am completely fine with. It's risk of dropping it on the ground instead of putting it away proper I guess.

EDIT: That said I lost a +1 longbow like that once as a result of a dragon breath that engulfed the area.. not intentionally I am sure but yea, part of the deal.


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As long as it makes sense for the enemy to do so, I think it is fine. If every time I dropped my bow, all NPCs made a B-line for it, then I would think the GM is trying to penalize me instead of playing the NPCs as they should be played.


I'd feel it'd make more sense for them to pick it up and use it against you *shrug*


I would cry a little, but it is a ok move. I would not be angry with the GM, making the baddies do things like this is part of the deal.


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It depends a lot on the situation.

1) The enemy uses it: Cool, let's do this.
2) The enemy sunders it: Erm, okay. So he wastes time to weaken us in the long run, instead of doing something to make him survive? Why is that again? If he expect to survive, wouldn't he keep the bow? It might make sense, but only in very rare circumstances.
3) The enemy runs away with it: Could be cool, BUT: Do they tend to run away? What are their purpose of attacking in the first place? If they want to run to save their own lives, why didn't he before the bow was on the ground? Again, I can only see a few circumstances where it makes sense for the NPC to do so.

In any case, as a GM, I would use it as a distraction, or secondary goal, in an encounter, not as a way to remove loot from a player.
So someway taking the lamb with his bow might be cool, if he notices, and has a real opportunity to catch the culprit. This might be a hard choice between helping his allies, and stopping someone getting away with his bow.
If he doesn't get the opportunity to do something about it, the GM might just make the bow magically vanish. Not cool, not fun, just punishment.


Those are three very different things:
- He picks it up and uses it: Had he arrows with him or did you drop those, too? If he got the arrows from nowhere I'd cry foul. Else I'd just kill him in melee.
- He sunders it: Was there any reason for him to do that? Now that you don't use the bow anymore I see little reason. But if he has any cause to do it, so be it.
- He picks it up and runs away: You can at least make an AoO when he runs away. Then you can run after him, getting into melee range once more (unless he's faster). Each round you can make another AoO when he starts running.


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It sounds OK as long as the NPC's actions follow some kind of logic. For example, if a bandit who is attacking the party realises he's in over his head and decides to steal the bow and run away, he is acting fairly rationally. If instead he decides to run up and sunder the bow even though it means he'll definitely be hacked apart with a greatsword on the next round, that's dumb.


yep, this is a fine devious tactic for an enemy to use, not so sure about the sunder as well unless it was to break you're morale (ha ha look at me I have your'e weapon puny human, and oh look I broke it, so sorry ha ha ha ha), if it was that reason it appears to have worked.

I guess the GM could have had the mooks keep the weapon or use it against you though.

Regardless, yes its a fine evil tactic.

Liberty's Edge

I would wonder why the enemy picks the bow, which I am obviously not using and thus is no threat to him, rather than attack and kill me or my friends (ie, very obvious threats to him).

If my bow is very precious to me, I would disengage from my current opponent and attack the thief.

If he sunders my bow, I would check with the GM the rationale behind it and how I can get my bow or my gold back. If I do not feel it satisfactory (Punishment or Metagame on the GM part for instance), I just might leave the gaming group.


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As a player? What is the pint of being fine or not with it? It happened - as soon as you enter into the game world the rules and experiences happen. Spending an iota of time deciding whether or not it was fair/verisimilitudinous/ok is time you could have spent wondering why you are playing the game in the first place. Move on, have fun, let your character decide how to feel about it.

As a character - I'd be annoyed, but also slightly self-admonishing. Don't drop your tools, or relinquish your weapons - they become fair game.

Here's a better question: As a character, how would you feel if your player made you drop your bow and quickdraw your greatsword and engage the enemy?

Silver Crusade

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Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Here's a better question: As a character, how would you feel if your player made you drop your bow and quickdraw your greatsword and engage the enemy?

Damn, I'd be having an existential crisis.


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I had the opposite situation happen: I had to relinquish a melee weapon (a whip) to start shooting. Then the raven familiar of the sorcerer we were fighting just flew by, grabbed my whip, and flew away. While the combat happened, my character just pelted the familiar while calling it obscene names so it'd drop my whip.

It was fun.


Asmo wrote:

You are playing a Switch hitter: you fire an arrow, drop your bow and quickdraws you greatsword and engages the enemy.

A round later, an enemy picks up the bow, and uses it/sunder it, runs away with it. How would you feel about this, as a player?

There is a great unspoken law of RPGs: Thou shalt not mess with the character's special stuff. It really upsets players when you do this.

That said, an enemy is NOT going to sunder a ver valuable weapon if he gets his hands on it. He will take it, use it, run away with it, but he won't break it. The only point in breaking a weapon is if the enemy has it in his hands and is trying to kill you with it.


As a player, I hate having to wait for hybrid class players pets to act, moving around and finally rolling to hit with animal companions and even familiars nearly always missing and then finally hitting for like 1d3 points of damage. Finally my turn comes and my raging power attack hits for 30 or so easily killing the enemy. So annoying having to wait for ineffective pets.


^not sure what that has to do with anything but....

Depending on how much the bow costs I would range from unconcerned to you just took 25% of my wbl now im f#++ed build wise.

Sczarni

From my point of view as a player, it would seem way more logical for a given enemy who used the bow to simply keep it and run away.

From my point of view as a GM, the NPC could have had another reason to sunder it at end. Perhaps there is some background story behind this act.

Malag


All it takes is one spell to have it repaired, so it's not a big deal.


Sorry for off topic last post. Not what bothers you as a player but would this...

Well yeah but I would accept it having taken the risk as others have said. Much worse has happened to my own characters for risking.

The Exchange

Odraude wrote:
I'd feel it'd make more sense for them to pick it up and use it against you *shrug*

Well, if the player was silly enough to also drop his quiver full of arrows and set it nicely next to the bow, he/she kind of has it coming, really. If he/she didn't, I don't know just how useful it's going to be to use the bow against the player :P

As for the issue itself - it's hard for me to imagine a scenario in which the opponent is being smart by taking it's time to sunder a weapon that's already dropped on the floor instead of, I don't know, facing that angry looking PC with a greatsword.

If in the situation it was a sound tactical choice (or the opponent was both stupid and had a reason to want to sunder the bow)then as a player I'd be cool with it. Otherwise it would feel like meta gaming from the GM, and that would upset me.


If it's on the ground it's really up for grabs but it really has to make sense why they're grabbing it.
The best way to make this scenario work is if the enemies had been taking lots of damaging shots from the bow and an angry enemy wants to get revenge. "This is what I think of your g%% d*@n bow!"


Asmo wrote:

You are playing a Switch hitter: you fire an arrow, drop your bow and quickdraws you greatsword and engages the enemy.

A round later, an enemy picks up the bow, and uses it/sunder it, runs away with it. How would you feel about this, as a player?

Asmo

Uhhhh....seems totally legit to me. I mean, these guys are trying to kill you. And you just left loot laying on the ground.

Though, he probably wouldn't sunder it. To do so would likely be based only in metagame to harm the character in the long run. Most NPCS would think of it as loot and pick it up with the expectation of survival or try to run away etc. Though, I can think of some situation where it might be valid and non-metagamey to sunder the bow it does seem unlikely. But picking it up to steal or use against you seems like a great idea.


Nope. Don't leave toys lying around for the enemy to play with /break.


Asmo wrote:
You are playing a Switch hitter...

Gosh, I expected your post to go a very different direction.

If there's a logical reason to break someone's bow ...

... you break someone's bow. End of discussion.


Asmo wrote:

You are playing a Switch hitter: you fire an arrow, drop your bow and quickdraws you greatsword and engages the enemy.

A round later, an enemy picks up the bow, and uses it/sunder it, runs away with it. How would you feel about this, as a player?

Asmo

I would expect an AoO on them for picking up the bow (you have to crouch to do that) but not for sundering it. Although I'm sure the rules don't have AoOs for picking up objects.

I had a PC whose horse was stolen because he left it unattended. I can't honestly complain about that.

Grand Lodge

There are a few situations where the enemy might sunder it, but those are somewhat uncommon:

-You are attacked by bandits, and they realize they will need to flee after a round or two. One of them sunders the bow to remove the possibility of a ranged assault as they flee, and opts to sunder instead of carrying a bow that might slow him/her down. Alternatively, the bandits may simply steal a valuable bow and run away. Their lives are valuable to them, but if they can at least make it so that the raid on your party wasn't completely worthless, they will likely do so if they think they can escape with their lives.

-Fey. They do weird things for odd reasons. If one of them wants to be "tricky" and breaks your bow just to mess with you, that's a possibility.

-A wizard uses a spell to sunder the unattended weapon (no saving throw for unattended objects, usually), then moves or teleports further back in order to stay out of melee while removing your ability to make ranged attacks.

To answer your question: As a player, I would think the enemy is within its boundaries trying to take advantage of the situation. One of the reasons that dropping something takes no action while sheathing something does is because dropping an item leaves that item vulnerable. I agree that if most enemies are suddenly trying to steal/sunder your bow over attacking you it would be annoying, and would obviously be due to a metagaming GM, but there are many reasons an enemy would want to steal your weapon, and a few reasons they may even want to sunder it.


Some wicked lady out there has my +2 fey bane rapier as a trophy. She picked it up and ran.


It wouldn't upset me. In fact, if the one grabbing the bow can get to a place where the player has to provoke multiple AoOs from his friends to get to you, he doesn't even need to shoot it to mess you up.

Heck, I've had a fumble cause me to drop my sword with a THF Samurai, and a goblin kicked it into the ocean (Skulls and Shackles). It's a good thing I had a swim speed (Gillman), or I would have lost that +2 adamantine nodachi forever. It was totally fair, and my character was effectively taken out of the fight for several rounds.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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Another possible reason why an enemy might sunder the weapon is if they are playing the long game. Maybe this is a BBEG (or a minion acting under the orders of the BBEG) who has been studying the PCs and knows their tactics involve use of ranged weapons. He might be trying to cripple them for a later confrontation.

As a player, this would be pretty annoying. But those kinds of things really make you *hate* the villain, which makes it all the sweeter when you finally take him down!


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Tamago wrote:

Another possible reason why an enemy might sunder the weapon is if they are playing the long game. Maybe this is a BBEG (or a minion acting under the orders of the BBEG) who has been studying the PCs and knows their tactics involve use of ranged weapons. He might be trying to cripple them for a later confrontation.

As a player, this would be pretty annoying. But those kinds of things really make you *hate* the villain, which makes it all the sweeter when you finally take him down!

But in this situation, it's still probably better for the BBEG to take rather than sunder the weapon. Sundering it leaves pieces behind that can be repaired. Taking it and getting away means the PC has to replace it completely.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Bill Dunn wrote:
Tamago wrote:

Another possible reason why an enemy might sunder the weapon is if they are playing the long game. Maybe this is a BBEG (or a minion acting under the orders of the BBEG) who has been studying the PCs and knows their tactics involve use of ranged weapons. He might be trying to cripple them for a later confrontation.

As a player, this would be pretty annoying. But those kinds of things really make you *hate* the villain, which makes it all the sweeter when you finally take him down!

But in this situation, it's still probably better for the BBEG to take rather than sunder the weapon. Sundering it leaves pieces behind that can be repaired. Taking it and getting away means the PC has to replace it completely.

Agreed. Unless the BBEG is trying to go for more psychological pain ("I can break your stuff!") rather than strictly focusing on weakening the PC.


Couldnt you tie a rope, or get it chained to you, so then you can drop it, but still have some control. My cat folk always has his weapons anchored to his tail just in case...


Dabbler wrote:
Asmo wrote:

You are playing a Switch hitter: you fire an arrow, drop your bow and quickdraws you greatsword and engages the enemy.

A round later, an enemy picks up the bow, and uses it/sunder it, runs away with it. How would you feel about this, as a player?
There is a great unspoken law of RPGs: Thou shalt not mess with the character's special stuff.

No. No, there is not. Why do people keep saying this? Sunder is in the rule book for a reason. If it makes sense for the enemy to sunder instead of throwing himself against a plate wall or impaling himself on the wizard's wand of ice storm, the NPC should do it. If the GM feels bad about it, they're free to correct the WBL imbalance later.

In this instance, though, sundering makes no sense when the NPC is more likely to do something that actually helps him survive. Breaking a dropped bow during active combat would be suicidally spiteful. Most characters, smart or stupid, would not do this. Now, a badass villain might beat the PC into submission, then pick up the bow and break it in half just to rub it in. That might actually make sense.

Stealing it and running might make sense if the NPC knows that he won't get away so long as the switch hitter is armed with a bow.


I would be annoyed, yes, but I wouldn't consider it a huge deal.

On the other hand, this is one reason why I don't play switch-hitters.

Shadow Lodge

simon hacker wrote:


Regardless, yes its a fine evil tactic.

how does this have anything to do with evil... at all?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Asmo wrote:

You are playing a Switch hitter: you fire an arrow, drop your bow and quickdraws you greatsword and engages the enemy.

A round later, an enemy picks up the bow, and uses it/sunder it, runs away with it. How would you feel about this, as a player?

Asmo

As long as the DM doesn't cheat to make the maneuver succeed, no player should have any issue with this. That means following all of the rules applicable, including incurring AOO's tracking movement, etc.


If you drop your weapon like a hooligan then it's fair game. I took a player out of a combat once when they dropped their +1 eleven curve blade to use their bow. One of the goblins the were fighting ran over, picked it up, and ran off. The player decided that the party was doing ok by themselves and chased the goblin down.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Plus, if it is a magic weapon, you basically just dropped a GIANT pile of gold on the ground and left it. More gold than the typical mook will see in a lifetime. I'd be hard pressed to give a reason why a mook wouldn't pick it up and run for the hills.

Shadow Lodge

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LazarX wrote:
Asmo wrote:

You are playing a Switch hitter: you fire an arrow, drop your bow and quickdraws you greatsword and engages the enemy.

A round later, an enemy picks up the bow, and uses it/sunder it, runs away with it. How would you feel about this, as a player?

Asmo

As long as the DM doesn't cheat to make the maneuver succeed, no player should have any issue with this. That means following all of the rules applicable, including incurring AOO's tracking movement, etc.

a kamakazi charge to sunder the bow is a dick gm thing to do. and i would be pissed as a player. but a legit, snatch and grab i would not be mad at all... i would hunt that f@%$er down and gut him in the worst way.


TheSideKick wrote:
simon hacker wrote:


Regardless, yes its a fine evil tactic.

how does this have anything to do with evil... at all?

You are correct, absolutley nothing. :)

I just meant that if I was the GM I would only have sundered the bow if the NPC was a twisted meglomaniac with no morals and just wanted to show how powerful and evil he really was.

Otherwise I would have done what most people have said keep it and use it.


Asmo wrote:

You are playing a Switch hitter: you fire an arrow, drop your bow and quickdraws you greatsword and engages the enemy.

A round later, an enemy picks up the bow, and uses it/sunder it, runs away with it. How would you feel about this, as a player?

Asmo

How would you feel as a GM, if a player did this to one of his enemies?

Hopefully, you'd be indifferent. Its a common sense tactic and its not as if the player is picking on you, he/she is just playing smart.

Goes both ways.


It depends on the outcome. If the guy broke it and then died on my sword instead of defending himself, I might cry unreasonable. If he picked it up, withdrew, and started shooting me with it from a distance, I would think that the monster was being very clever in getting field upgrades.


Bill Dunn wrote:

But in this situation, it's still probably better for the BBEG to take rather than sunder the weapon. Sundering it leaves pieces behind that can be repaired. Taking it and getting away means the PC has to replace it completely.

Unless he figures he can't escape. I could steal it, but if you pursue me you get it back anyway and all it cost you was a foot chase. If it's broken, you've lost ranged ability and have to expend a resource (spell, or gold and time) to get it fixed.


Story Archer wrote:
How would you feel as a GM, if a player did this to one of his enemies?

I don't think that's a reliable test of fairness. If a PC ninja sneaks into an enemy camp and murders everyone in their sleep due to a bad perception check by a sentry, that's just a bit of fun; they're only NPCs. If the roles are reversed and a single bad dice roll leads to an inescapable TPK, I think the players could reasonably complain.


Story Archer wrote:
Asmo wrote:

You are playing a Switch hitter: you fire an arrow, drop your bow and quickdraws you greatsword and engages the enemy.

A round later, an enemy picks up the bow, and uses it/sunder it, runs away with it. How would you feel about this, as a player?

Asmo

How would you feel as a GM, if a player did this to one of his enemies?

Hopefully, you'd be indifferent. Its a common sense tactic and its not as if the player is picking on you, he/she is just playing smart.

Goes both ways.

There's really no relationship here. It's intended that the PCs will take valuables from the opposition. The GM's monsters/NPCs don't occupy the same role as the PCs do.


I'd like to point out that there is at least two magic items, though one is slightly pricey, that solve this problem. Glove of storing, free action to safely stow your bow in a nice "little" place, you then quick draw the greatsword as normal and swing away. the other option is Gauntlets of the weaponmaster, pricey at 110k but possible, lets you store up to 10 weapons that allow you to pull one out or swap between active weapons as a swift action and have the added benefit of letting you pop greater heroism on your self 3x/day.

Just pointing out that there are alternatives to dropping your bow before going into melee.

Asta
PSY


No I would not be upset.


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Zhayne wrote:
Story Archer wrote:
Asmo wrote:

You are playing a Switch hitter: you fire an arrow, drop your bow and quickdraws you greatsword and engages the enemy.

A round later, an enemy picks up the bow, and uses it/sunder it, runs away with it. How would you feel about this, as a player?

Asmo

How would you feel as a GM, if a player did this to one of his enemies?

Hopefully, you'd be indifferent. Its a common sense tactic and its not as if the player is picking on you, he/she is just playing smart.

Goes both ways.

There's really no relationship here. It's intended that the PCs will take valuables from the opposition. The GM's monsters/NPCs don't occupy the same role as the PCs do.

LOL - so the PC's can steal things from their foes but their foes can't steal things from them?

What video game are you playing?


I still think it all depends on intent. Having 6 guys spamming sunder on your bow while the rest of the party tears them apart is the GM trying to break your stuff.

Having one guy break your bow and run away whistling, and having flying archers show up a round later and hit your group hard is good tactics and merits respect.

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