Simple (hopefully)... do shields count as weapons, for the purposes of things like the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype abilities, the Break Guard feet, and so on and so forth?
The CRB has all the info you need, a shield can be enhanced as both defensive (AC boost/Shield abilities) and/or offensive (ToHit/Damage/Weapon abilities), each "side" needs to be done seperately.
From the Armor Special Abilities section of the PRD:
Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a shield bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description).
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
As with armor, special abilities built into the shield add to the market value in the form of additions to the bonus of the shield, although they do not improve AC. A shield cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A shield with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
Yeah, I know they can be enchanted as weapons, just checking if it counts as a weapon in your off hand for feats and class abilities that require/use a weapon in your off hand.
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Where's Blackbloodtroll when you need him (her?)?
Yes, light shields are light martial weapons, and heavy shields are one-handed martial weapons. (See: PRD, Core Rulebook, Equipment, Table: Weapons)
You can perform a shield bash with heavy and light shields.
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield. See “shield, light” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
BBT will come up with his 'Shields are weapons' and he is right because it is RAW. I personally dont like the idea of a two shield wielder or a shield as a main weapon.
Me either.
I'm just toying with the idea of a sword & board fighter with Break Guard, Disarming Strike, and Bashing Finish, maybe the Two Weapon Warrior archetype and the Two Weapon Rend feat, see how it all shakes out.
Thanks for the confirmation, folks.
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A shield is very much a weapon.
It is a valid choice for the Weapon Focus feat, it is in one of the Fighter weapon groups, and can be enchanted as a weapon.
It is listed, in the weapons section of the CRB, as a martial weapon.
It is even historically been used as a weapon.
If you are uncomfortable with one using a shield as a main weapon, then tell Captain America.
Maybe the don't want to encroach on the Captain's territory. Not quite as dangerous as trying to get Adamantine claws, but still a risk.
And you can two hand your heavy shield, good for power attacking...
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I never caught onto this before, if using a heavy shield than you need your other weapon to be light or suffer to massive penalties for unbalanced weapons? Eye opener.
until you get Shield Master. The massive TWF penalties for each shield get negated in that case.
The other thing to remember though is that you should apply the Armor check penalty twice (once for each shield) to the applicable skill checks.
This came up in one of our games recently. My paladin was charmed and told throw his weapons across the room.
My paladin has never actually ATTACKED with shield, therefore in HIS mind it was NOT a weapon. He was allowed to hold on to that.
It was decided that if it is USED as a weapon, it would COUNT as a weapon. I would imagine the same should be figured here. If you want to use TWF with it, go for it. If your not actually attacking with it.. you aren't going to get hit with the penalties for using two weapons.
It was decided that if it is USED as a weapon, it would COUNT as a weapon. I would imagine the same should be figured here. If you want to use TWF with it, go for it. If your not actually attacking with it.. you aren't going to get hit with the penalties for using two weapons.
That's how it works for all weapons. If I have a sword in one hand and a mace in the other, but I only attack with the sword, I don't suffer any TWF penalties. Heck, if my BaB is +6, I could use my first iterative to attack with the sword, then use my second iterative to attack with the mace and still not suffer TWF penalties. TWF only applies when you use a second weapon to gain an EXTRA attack above and beyond your normal iteratives.
Sorry for the necro, but rather than make a new post, I figured I'd tack an edge case question on here.
The Supernaturalist Druid archetype from Occult Origins grants the Druid access to Medium powers. If the Druid takes a taboo from the list associated with the Animal spirit, they get more free Spirit Surges.
Taboos: Choose one: you must not speak (except with animals and plants); you must not wield manufactured weapons; you must not eat anything you did not kill or harvest yourself.I particular, I'm curious is a shield counts as a manufactured weapon for this ability. I've no intention of actually using it as a weapon, but am simply interested in the AC boost. I imagine the answer is either "expect table variation" or "it's a weapon and would violate the taboo" but I'm interested in getting opinions.
I would actually say you don't break the taboo, the shield is categorized as Armor. The write up states you can use it to make a shield bash and when used in such a way is considered a martial bludgeoning weapon. Until then, it is Armor.
Mazludeh has Favored Weapon: Heavy Shield.
Wow. Distant Shores has all kinds of hidden interesting things.
Taboos: Choose one: (...) you must not wield manufactured weapons (...)I particular, I'm curious is a shield counts as a manufactured weapon for this ability. I've no intention of actually using it as a weapon, but am simply interested in the AC boost.
Well, it's about wielding a weapon, not about carrying it in your hands. One possible interpretation would be 'Don't use it as a weapon and you are fine'. That would even be true for goblin dogslicers or lumberjack axes - fellow druids might be unhappy about them, though.
That says to me, you can't attack with any manufactured weapons.
Wielding a weapon is a little more far reaching than that, total defense, aid another (you are rolling vs an AC but not actually attacking), etc. But yeah, you are pretty much unable to use it.
Defending weapons need to be wielded to give their bonus. And wielded for them means having made an attack with. So there's that for saying that having a weapon in hand isn't wielding.
So to add on to this discussion in the form of a question. Since a shield can be enchanted as a weapon could you just add Defender to it and then run the enhancement up to max and thus end up spending less money?
So to add on to this discussion in the form of a question. Since a shield can be enchanted as a weapon could you just add Defender to it and then run the enhancement up to max and thus end up spending less money?
This should probably be another post altogether.
The armor and weapon Enhancement bonuses are separate. If you max the AC bonus it does nothing for the Defending weapon property, and vice versa. You wouldn't be able to save any money and worse, you would typically lose the AC bonus from the shield because you need to attack with a shield bash to get Defending to function.
Defending weapons need to be wielded to give their bonus. And wielded for them means having made an attack with. So there's that for saying that having a weapon in hand isn't wielding.
This is because the defending property is USE ACTIVATED. You must wield AND make an attack with your defending weapon for that property to activate.
So to add on to this discussion in the form of a question. Since a shield can be enchanted as a weapon could you just add Defender to it and then run the enhancement up to max and thus end up spending less money?This should probably be another post altogether.
The armor and weapon Enhancement bonuses are separate. If you max the AC bonus it does nothing for the Defending weapon property, and vice versa. You wouldn't be able to save any money and worse, you would typically lose the AC bonus from the shield because you need to attack with a shield bash to get Defending to function.
I agree that this should probably be split. Can a moderator do that per chance?
I also understand what you are saying and agree with it now that I look at it. I am also willing to bet that Defending would not stack with any magical bonuses to defense added as part of the shield.
Oh, the defender property will stack.
You just need to get a firm ruling that 'wielding' a shield means using it defensively, or wieilding it as a defender means it MUST be used to attack with (which is also logical).
So, yeah, Uber Shields can get a very high AC bonus to you. You do, however, need to spend a LOT of money to get there.
==Aelryinth
Oh, the defender property will stack.
You just need to get a firm ruling that 'wielding' a shield means using it defensively, or wieilding it as a defender means it MUST be used to attack with (which is also logical).
So, yeah, Uber Shields can get a very high AC bonus to you. You do, however, need to spend a LOT of money to get there.
==Aelryinth
Defending isn't a shield property. It is a weapon property. That is why you need to add a +1 "weapon" bonus to get access to it. Wielding a shield for armor isn't the same as wielding a shield for damage.
And your "Armor" bonuses do nothing for using your "Armor Enhancement" to attack with. Barring special rules, your +10(5/5) magical shield gets none of the magical bonuses to hit or damage on an attack. Maybe +1 from masterwork.
Well let's see. Shield master let's you use your shield ac bonus to attack and damage. No issue there.
You can use a shield to attack and still protect yourself. That's what shield bash is for, and improved shield bash feat.
Skylancer you need to brush up a touch on shield builds I think. Many of your issues are fixed by feats.
I don't need to brush up on anything, those are exceptions to the NORMAL rules, which is why I use words like "typically" and such.
Comprehension of the English language is helpful. Please attempt to use it.
Especially as the post I was replying to originally was specifically trying to double dip the Defending property by not enhancing the weapon bonus.
Even with the list of abilities I'm well aware exist, It wouldn't work so said points are completely useless and had no reason to be brought up.
You can't sack your Armor Enhancement for your weapons Defending property to save money.
I suppose I should thank you for giving us your 2 cents about a conversation you apparently haven't been following very well. Thanks for your time...
So to add on to this discussion in the form of a question. Since a shield can be enchanted as a weapon could you just add Defender to it and then run the enhancement up to max and thus end up spending less money?This should probably be another post altogether.
The armor and weapon Enhancement bonuses are separate. If you max the AC bonus it does nothing for the Defending weapon property, and vice versa. You wouldn't be able to save any money and worse, you would typically lose the AC bonus from the shield because you need to attack with a shield bash to get Defending to function.
My comprehension is just fine. It's yours that needs fine tuning. He's clearly talking about weapon enhancements not ac ones. And "normal " rules include feats to help. If we can talk about enhancements we can talk about feats.
Politeness is helpful too, please attempt to use that.
Like telling someone to brush up on rules that aren't helpful to the situation at hand?
I obviously answered the real question the poster had, then you put your 2 cents in. Who was being impolite? I didn't tell you what to go do now did I?
I was stating you had some issues that wouldn't work and pointed out some fixes and where to look. That's not impolite. That's literally the opposite. You took it as rude, but I assure you I was earnest in my attempts to help.
In order to save money, the poster was assuming you could tap into whichever Enhancement bonus so the didn't need to spend as much gold.
It doesn't work that way. End of story. Armor is separate from weapon enhancement, not interchangeable.
If they didn't increase Armor Enhancement they can't use the bonus to attack with. If they didn't increase the Weapon Enhancement they can't sack it for Defending.
They can't save money this way. So there were no "issues" for you to "fix" despite how you may see it.
It wasn't a question of "how do I do this" it was of "if I do this I can save money" but they couldn't. The rules just don't allow for it. It wasn't a build question or about feats. It was about magical shields and adding weapon enhancements and how they interact. I stayed on topic, you told me to brush up on the rules which weren't relevant. Thanks.
alright you two get a room.
now back on topic, yes a shield can be used as a weapon and there is a trait that will allow you to treat it as a light weapon to lessen the twf penalties it is called Shield Trained from Inner Sea Gods
alright you two get a room.
now back on topic, yes a shield can be used as a weapon and there is a trait that will allow you to treat it as a light weapon to lessen the twf penalties it is called Shield Trained from Inner Sea Gods
It's a religion trait for worshipers of Gorum.
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It's a religion trait for worshipers of Gorum.alright you two get a room.
now back on topic, yes a shield can be used as a weapon and there is a trait that will allow you to treat it as a light weapon to lessen the twf penalties it is called Shield Trained from Inner Sea Gods
ALL HAIL OUR LORD IN IRON!!!