I Throw a Rock at it!


Advice

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Whisperknives wrote:
Just take Throw anything at low levels and replace Improved Critical with Improvised Weapon Mastery, problem solved and actually net better results.

Rough and Ready trait > Throw Anything. Now you just need a Profession where a rock is a tool of the trade...

Scarab Sages

Pupsocket wrote:
Whisperknives wrote:
Just take Throw anything at low levels and replace Improved Critical with Improvised Weapon Mastery, problem solved and actually net better results.
Rough and Ready trait > Throw Anything. Now you just need a Profession where a rock is a tool of the trade...

Profession(Sculptor), or if you are from a primitive society that uses stone arrow heads and other tools, Profession(Knapper)


Also, assuming that the ability comes with a -4 non-proficiency penalty by default is ridiculous.


would this mean that the dwarf racial trait that reduces the non-proficiency penalty allow you to become proficient at level 1? Because at level 1, you do not have a penalty at all.

Scarab Sages

Pupsocket wrote:
Also, assuming that the ability comes with a -4 non-proficiency penalty by default is ridiculous.

Yes, I am aware that the non-proficient thing with an ability seems wierd, so I just wanted to cover all my bases. Just in case someone wanted to try this character, and the DM want everything to be working as is.

With the Greater Belt of Hurling, it gives the returning property, so you might want to have a few "special" stones like cold iron and adamantine rocks in your belt pouch. No mithral, since those can not be found in nature. Viridium might be neat, but you have to watch out if you can be infected with its cancerous effects.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Using catapult ammo(rocks) is the best way to handle this.

All the improvised weapon stuff applies, but it make other things, like special materials, and targeting them with spells, easier.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Was getting ready to settle down and make that character when I came across the Cliff Giant in the Bestiary IV.

Why is that significant? Weapon Focus (rock) is among his feats. Guess that makes it a valid weapon choice for the feat. :D

I'm also willing to bet that it is safe to say that Rock Throwing makes you proficient in them.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Using catapult ammo(rocks) is the best way to handle this.

All the improvised weapon stuff applies, but it make other things, like special materials, and targeting them with spells, easier.

Where can I find stats/rules for that?


So, what would one enchant a rock with? Returning is the obvious choice, next maybe, keen? agile? (would it work with weapon finesse? my first thought is no, but how big is the rock in question?) Flaming Burst?


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Does the Rock Throwing ability make one proficient with rocks for the purposes of feat perquisites (i.e. weapon focus)?

Scarab Sages

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Green Smashomancer wrote:
So, what would one enchant a rock with? Returning is the obvious choice, next maybe, keen? agile? (would it work with weapon finesse? my first thought is no, but how big is the rock in question?) Flaming Burst?

How does one make a masterwork rock?

Silver Crusade

Is this PFS legal?, I love this idea


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Imbicatus wrote:
Green Smashomancer wrote:
So, what would one enchant a rock with? Returning is the obvious choice, next maybe, keen? agile? (would it work with weapon finesse? my first thought is no, but how big is the rock in question?) Flaming Burst?
How does one make a masterwork rock?

Polish it. :D


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Imbicatus wrote:
Green Smashomancer wrote:
So, what would one enchant a rock with? Returning is the obvious choice, next maybe, keen? agile? (would it work with weapon finesse? my first thought is no, but how big is the rock in question?) Flaming Burst?
How does one make a masterwork rock?

One word: Dwarves.

Scarab Sages

Green Smashomancer, when you get the Greater Belt of Mighty Hurling, your thrown weapons all have the Returning Property. However, if you have Disposable/Splintering Weapon, let those rocks have the Broken condition to get more bang from them. You can also use an Oil of Flame Arrow to give 50 rocks extra damage, though I am not certain if they would be considered ammunition.

Flame Arrow:
This spell allows you to turn ammunition (such as arrows, crossbow bolts, shuriken, and sling stones) into fiery projectiles. Each piece of ammunition deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage to any target it hits. A flaming projectile can easily ignite a flammable object or structure, but it won't ignite a creature it strikes.

Master of the Dark Triad, some people said yes, others no. It is still up in the air. I made two builds that goes with each.

Imbicatus, Adamantine Rock!

Tin Foil Yamakah, since the majority of my Pen and Paper/Tabletop was from PFS, I ususally have a mindset to creating PFS-ready characters, hence the cap to 11 (Since at 12 they 'retire').

And yes, Ravingdork, Batman: TAS is where I was thinking the title from. =)


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Bumi Mei Fong (aka BMF) is now a proud new member of my Crazy Character Emporium.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

Was getting ready to settle down and make that character when I came across the Cliff Giant in the Bestiary IV.

Why is that significant? Weapon Focus (rock) is among his feats. Guess that makes it a valid weapon choice for the feat. :D

I'm also willing to bet that it is safe to say that Rock Throwing makes you proficient in them.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Using catapult ammo(rocks) is the best way to handle this.

All the improvised weapon stuff applies, but it make other things, like special materials, and targeting them with spells, easier.

Where can I find stats/rules for that?

Well, much like using an arrow as a weapon, using catapult ammunition as a weapon would fall under improvised weapon rules.

As ammunition has costs, and rules for special materials costs.

It would also follow the rules for enchanting, and what happens after used in combat.

Standard catapult stones cost 15 gp and weigh 75 pounds each.

See more about siege engines here..

Scarab Sages

The problem is that the ammunition of the catapult rock might be too big for the oracle, since the rock has to be two sizes smaller than the character.


the hurler line of rage powers from a barb dip (and possible foray into rage prophet) lets you increase the rock's sive by a few categories, or increase the range increments of it (players choice)

Scarab Sages

I remembered thinking of the hurling rage power before, but there is a few issues. It is a full round action to throw the object. It is also based on falling object damage. The creature hit can still make a Reflex save for half, so creatures that has evasion negate the damage on success.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Light catapult stones cost 10 gp and weigh 50 pounds each.


The improvised weapon issue should logically apply if using improvised rocks, i.e., ones that you've just picked up at random off the ground, But if you spend some time looking for rocks the right shape such that they fit into your hand and have passable aerodynamics, they're no longer improvised. But otherwise, they're arguably simple weapons, probably clubs. RAW does not describe what a club is, but clubs can be thrown so just get some rocks that shape and you're good to go.


Evilserran wrote:
dotting this... i have for the longest time tried building one of these in 3.5, but never came this good, so next pathfinder game....

There was a Prestige Class in 3.5 with this as the base idea, but it was for Large Creatures only if I recall right...


Use the Oracle (Stone)1 for the rock throwing goodness.
Seems kind of silly that a granted ability (rock throwing) would suffer a penalty (non-proficiency).

Add Barbarian (Breaker archetype) 3rd level.
1) At 3rd level, the breaker barbarian suffers no penalty on attack rolls when using an improvised weapon or a weapon with the broken condition. In addition, she gains a +1 bonus on damage rolls with improvised or broken weapons for every three levels beyond 3rd.
Select your ammo as fragile & use the Splintering weapon feat with every throw.

And Fighter (Two weapon archetype) to whatever level the campaign lasts.
1) The descriptions for the TWF archetype do not specify 'melee'.
2) 9th level allows an attack w/ primary & secondary weapon as a standard action. This seems to be better than Rapid shot.
This seems to have more benefits than the Weapon master.

Scarab Sages

The issue that is floating around is proficiency/non-proficiency and improvisation. If you are not proficient in the rock, you can not obtain Weapon Focus and such. This includes improvised weaponry. If you are using an improvised weapon, are you not able to be proficient in it? Various confusing clauses and the such.

As for the option of the Breaker Archetype. You can use that, but there is the issue of using a fragile weapon to gain the broken condition. Does the broken condition applies before, or after the damage? Is said rock an improvised weapon when you are proficient in throwing it?

As for the option of the Two-Weapon Warrior. I had originally placed Two-Weapon Fighting into my build, but then decided to take it out. the reason behind this is the comparison between Statistical requirements behind the feats. Rapid Shot requires only a Dexterity of 13, while Two-Weapon Fighting requires a Dexterity of 15. It may not seem much, but when taking into consideration that your main Ability Score is Strength for BOTH Attack Rolls and Damage Rolls, Dexterity can be dumped to its lowest form in order to maximize your accuracy and damage. It is similar to a Dervish Dancer stacking Dexterity to maximize damage rather than upp their Strength. Moreover, if you have the Gloves of Dueling, you can increase the bonus of the Weapon Master's Weapon Training by 2, up to a possible +4/+4 on the ability.

Granted that the Doublestrike ability of the Two-Weapon Warrior is a nice move to use on the run, much better than grabbing Vital Strike, it can still be an option if you are going 9-deep into a Fighter Archetype.


Doooooooooooooot.

Also, thank you, Ravingdork, for finding that for me. Saved me a lot of work. :)

Scarab Sages

Dot.

Simply brilliant.

Dark Archive

Starfinder Superscriber

dot


Did a similar build with 2 barbarian/the rest alchemist although I like the oracle dip. Using hurling and alchemist (ragechemist) cheese to get my str as high as I could you could throw bombs for falling damage (it's not stone or metal so only 10d6 max on a failed reflex save) plus explosion plus int and monstrous str and power attack to *points far away* that guy.

Scarab Sages

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Setting up a bomb is a standard action. Fast bombs is afull round action to throw as many bombs as possible.

The hurling rage power takes a separate full round action to toss a single object.

Since you are hurling as a full round action, you can not set us up the bomb during that action, since it takes a standard or full round itself.


have to come up with a way to get proficiency with a rock for weapon focus and specialization, I've also just checked and "rock" does not show up on any of the expanded weapon groups so weapon training (rock) is out too. You could make them into clubs of the material stone, but that would not work with "rock thrower".

baring some houserules this build just doesn't work, the rock is too sophisticated a weapon to be covered by Pathfinder RAW.

Silver Crusade

I so want to do this for PFS. I always get accused of powerbuilding characters, and this sounds like something that would be fun without be super optimized.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I so want to do this for PFS. I always get accused of powerbuilding characters, and this sounds like something that would be fun without be super optimized.

I was kinda thinking the same thing. But I'm not sure all the GM's would agree with how they are getting around the weapon proficiency. So at a lot of tables, I might not be able to play it.

Silver Crusade

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I so want to do this for PFS. I always get accused of powerbuilding characters, and this sounds like something that would be fun without be super optimized.
I was kinda thinking the same thing. But I'm not sure all the GM's would agree with how they are getting around the weapon proficiency. So at a lot of tables, I might not be able to play it.

That's one of the reasons I am going to hold off. The other is that I already have more than enough PFS characters to play right now and I don't need to go making any new ones to distract myself. I need to focus on my level 9 inquisitor and get to 11 so I can be part of my region's next EotT group.

Scarab Sages

There is a reason that there are two builds =)


My build wasn't rules legal but gm houseruled that explosive ammuntion could work with cannonballs and could be used with hurling lesser as loading a single barrel firearm is normally a full round action. It was a home game and was hilarious from my point of view. GM liked spectacle and I decided to bring the fireworks.


Holy crap, dot. This is fantastic.

Scarab Sages

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Now for the proficiency issue, it does raise up a few questions to other abilities. For example, a splash weapon like alchemists fire. Usually people belive that it can be thrown without it being an improvised weapon, but do anyone know where it specifically states that everyone is proficient in throwing that splash weapon?

Another item on the table is the Magic Stone spell. It creates three +1 stones that people can throw. Most people assume that you can throw it without penalty. Should we apply the -4 to it, since it is still a stone being thrown as an improved item?

Last is another Stone Oracle revelation, Mighty Pebble. You charge up the pebble and throw it like a grenade, doing splash damage. Is gains enhancement bonuses, but is it still an improvised weapon?

I know this may sound a bit mean, but it does raise a few questions regarding other gameplay mechanics, as we are pushing the issue of proficiency and inproficiency.

Silver Crusade

I will go start a rules question thread about it to get FAQ posts and come back to link it here.

Edit: Here is the link to the rules questions thread. Please go over and click the FAQ button so we can get an answer on this burning question.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Meh, I don't need to. There are giants with weapon focus (rock) so it is clearly a weapon one can be proficient in.

Silver Crusade

Ravingdork wrote:
Meh, I don't need to. There are giants with weapon focus (rock) so it is clearly a weapon one can be proficient in.

Yes, but the question for those of us who play PFS is, "How do you gain that proficiency?"


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A I know its not listed but if I was GM'ing home game or PFS game a rock is a simple of a weapon as you can get to me. Thats why the giants have weapon focus in it. Its a simple weapon, everyone is proficient. Now this is just me using sense and well wouldn't be RAW if thats what your looking for.

Further evidence is under sling where it states you can throw regular stones from the sling, the damage die just goes down a step and your are at a -1 to hit because they are not shaped to sit well in the sling pouch. No non proficiency. Stones are simple weapons have been since the dawn of time.


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Cao Phen wrote:

For example, a splash weapon like alchemists fire. Usually people belive that it can be thrown without it being an improvised weapon, but do anyone know where it specifically states that everyone is proficient in throwing that splash weapon?

Right here.

"To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty."

Scarab Sages

Zigniber wrote:
Cao Phen wrote:

For example, a splash weapon like alchemists fire. Usually people belive that it can be thrown without it being an improvised weapon, but do anyone know where it specifically states that everyone is proficient in throwing that splash weapon?

Right here.

"To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty."

Ah, thanks for the info. However, what about items like a thunderstone or bottled lightning, which are not splash weaponry. Do they get nonproficiency penalties?


Come to think of it, I can't think of anything that negates their nonproficiency penalties, so they probably are one of those things that most people run wrong. Though the thunderstone does specifically note "Since you don't need to hit a specific target, you can simply aim at a particular 5-foot square. Treat the target square as AC 5.", so a -4 penalty on it probably isn't a big deal. And while thunderstones and bottled lightning don't, many alchemical items/weapons specifically state they may be thrown "as a splash weapon", including some ones that aren't as obvious as acid or alchemist's fire.


Might I advise the Warpriest from the Advanced Class Guide playtest? Invest your first level weapon focus into a rock and boom, get the sacred weapon damage die as well as your hit die as BAB for attacks with that weapon?

Scarab Sages

This would mean that there is a blanket nonproficiency clause to everthing, ranging from Bead of Force, to Goblin Skull Bombs, to Cocatrice Grit, to Challenger's Gloves.


I guess that makes Throw Anything that much more useful as a feat. Though again, you don't have to hit anything directly with the Bead of Force, and most other things that are thrown like this (with the odd exception of the Goblin Skull Bomb, apparently) target touch AC, which already has a reputation for being very easy to hit, so the -4 penalty still probably isn't a huge deal for most people, once they have a few levels in them. Of course, once you start stacking penalties like soft cover and firing into melee, you may start to have problems again.


Solidchaos has some *solid* point there - consider a Warpriest of Ugh - the god of Throwin' Rocks (An' Stuff)
getting some great theme going there by the way of the rockcentric char


StDrake wrote:

Solidchaos has some *solid* point there - consider a Warpriest of Ugh - the god of Throwin' Rocks (An' Stuff)

getting some great theme going there by the way of the rockcentric char

First off, boo on the pun lol

On a serious note, thanks for the support, can be for any deity as written ATM with playtest rules, get the deities favored weapon and put the weapon focus on rock to treat both as sacred weapons


This thread makes me so happy and was something I probably never would have thought of building seriously. Well done... I'm stealing this for a game someday.

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