This is kind of an advice thread, but I encourage general discussion on the topic as much as I am soliciting advice from other GMs. If you've read any of my other posts from the past few months, you have an idea of where I'm coming from.
I've found that in my group of players, they often become annoyed when I begin to question their motives, actions, or even their dice rolls. Especially during combat, when there's a lot going on, I'll ask my players sometimes to verify how they got to a certain number, for example, then I get an eyeroll and a belabored sigh and a response detailing the buffs, feats, d20 roll, and stats involved in the result. It's not that I don't trust them, but they'll spit out a number that sounds awfully high or bizarre given the circumstances and ask them to explain. I suppose this could be partially fixed if I had more awareness of each of my players' sheets and spells prepped?
Then again, I had one player (level 4, mind you!) tell me he did 34 damage the other night. I blinked at him a few times, and said, "What?"
"34 damage."
"But - how?"
"Oh, well I used two weapon fighting and do X damage on this roll and Y damage on this roll."
"Okay, thanks, but can you please roll them separately and tell me each sepa-"
"THAT'S THE WAY ADDITION WORKS, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF I ADD THEM UP OR DO THEM SEPARATELY."
This would have devolved into an argument between this player and I which would have ended as a stalemate had I not just dropped the subject and moved on, despite the fact that it is important these damage rolls are calculated separately for purposes of DR and the like. Next turn, he gave them to me separately anyway, after putting up a fight against it in the first place.
What's worse is, I have three other players watching this, and instead of supporting me as the GM, they roll their eyes because "there they go again" when clearly I'm the GM and what I'm asking isn't unreasonable. It's kind of a regular occurrence between me and this one player, and I know I'll get snorts of derision if I attempt to GM fiat these types of situations. I feel like my hands are tied half (or more) of the time. Problem is, he's a good friend of mine and has been for a long time but he's got more system mastery (3 and 3.5e, anyway) than perhaps any of us AND he won't take NO for an answer, nor will he ever be convinced that he could ever be wrong on something.
Buuuuut I digress. Further to the point, there are other times where my players are going off to do some thing in the story, and they'll just want to gloss over the events in between, or when I ask a question pertinent to the situation at hand, say, "Is your weapon drawn?" they'll respond with, "Yeah, I drew it when I did X" except they never said they drew the weapon, or they'll say, "I cast mage armor on the way there" well after combat has started.
Other issues that I run into are that my players seem convinced they can only do what is on their sheet or in the books -- they never seem to get very creative with their surroundings or act like the world around them is anything more than a painting. I always end up pointing out simple solutions to them when I notice they have turned "how do we get Bob out of that pit?" into a twenty minute discussion on their character abilities, skills, and strengths.
"Guys, there's plenty of rubble lying around... why not drop some in to give him a height advantage?"
What's worse than this is when they walk right through every room in a dungeon without searching once, then complain to me later that I haven't given them enough loot. I almost always give them a wink and a nudge and say, "You should go back there and look around."
The problem is, when I help them out with solutions like this I feel like a dirty GM that has failed at his job and made it too easy for the players. Why don't my players get even this most basic P&P concept? SEARCH EVERYTHING. Urrrg... I keep telling them to look through the book, take a look at the equipment lists, the magic item lists, to spend the gold they're earning, to become familiar with every feat, every SP, SU, and EX ability they have, because they're going to need them, and to pay attention to the spells they're prepping because damnit you're going to need restoration and you didn't prep it and now you're dying because you got strength drained by a shadow.
This type of thing comes up far too often. Are my players narrow-minded? Are my expectations too high? I mean, c'mon -- everyone should take along a tanglefoot bag or two on their first adventure, right? Everyone knows to search every room, right? So why don't my PCs?
I try to encourage my players to get into their characters, to not treat their sheet as a set of numbers for them to increase, and to become involved with the story. I had one NPC throw herself at the PC who is played by someone who considers himself a ladies man, and now he's constantly asking me, "What's with the ladies throwing themselves at me?" Why can't they find your character attractive? Why can't you see these ladies as characters in a story and not mechanics in a game? Why must every thing that happens be related directly to your character or the plot?
I want to promote verisimilitude in my game, and push the story over the mechanics, not the other way around, but it seems like no matter how hard I try I just get resistance. Even one player, who is a self-proclaimed actor and who has starred in a feature-length film (albeit what amounts to basically a locally made, hyper-low-production-value snuff film), tells me he has a hard time not being himself and making decisions for himself, because, "my character is me." Well, no Jeremy, your character isn't Jeremy, it's ****ing Thomar Loyalind, Cleric of Sarenrae!!! NOW GO OUT THERE AND KILL IN THE NAME OF GOODNESS, NOT FOR EXPERIENCE POINTS AND MOAR STATZ AND SPELLZ!!!!
Is my group of friends doomed to the cheap dice rolling combat thrills of a hollow adventure path? Is it too late to bring them over to the side of light and show them what a tabletop RPG can really be? What are your tricks and secrets to really draw your players in?
Feeling like I have to constantly toe the line between a good GM and a friend. I want to be more forceful, enforce rules and roleplay more stricly, but I feel like my players will just be put off and want to abandon me because it won't be fun anymore... and maybe that's just it... maybe my idea of fun and their ideas of fun are different...but I'm stubborn to a fault and if I have to fight this fight all the way to Runelord Karzoug, then damnit, I'm going to fight. I want my players to enjoy this game the way it was meant to be, not as a board game with lots of numbers and options, but as an interactive storytelling medium that gives more freedom than any damn video game ever made. UGH.
Sorry -- I'm pretty passionate. This past weekend was especially trying, being the third five hour straight combat session we've had (we're at the end of Burnt Offerings). I want my players to take a more active interest in the game and in the story, but I'm just not feeling like they care at this point. I'm sure I know what you're going to tell me for responses, and I appreciate the advice in advance, I just needed a place to vent to someone (or many someones) who understand the game and my frustrations and who aren't also the people I play with every week (since I obviously can't vent like this to them). I've written a lot here and if you've read through this entire post, I thank you.
Introduce some puzzles that are obviously outside their actual character abilities. Have them come to rely on mundane equipment a bit. I believe a Crowbar or Portable Ram boosts Strength checks by +2 to break open doors. A Traveler's Anytool can become a pulley and winch. Rope can letcha do a bunch of crazy stuff.
Ask them stuff like what they want to do and tell them to reply in non-game terms. Ask em to be descriptive. Reward them heavily for ingenuity and you'll find them scrambling for it.
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You've seen some of my prior posts so you know that I would describe my situation almost exactly as you have, but unfortunately I'm too deep in the tunnel to see the light at the end -- I'll leave that to more experienced GMs.
I'm beginning to believe that D&D, Pathfinder, and tabletop RPGs in general are very sophisticated games that have the misfortune of attracting unsophisticated people.
I'm too far into my own despair over the game to offer you any sound advice or inspiring anecdotes, but I can tell you that many people on these boards have shared these experiences and seem to be doing very well now. I suppose that can be a little glimmer of hope for both of us.
Well for starters I would definitely enforce that if they didn't say they did something prior to combat, cast a buff or draw a weapon, then that never happened. That forces them to keep their character and surroundings in mind. Obviously tell them before the next session you are doing this to avoid whining.
If they are so interested in the combat aspect then add a twist to that. Make it so that a bad guy escapes, combat focused PC's HATE that, and they will develop a real passion for pursuing that villain.
I've had this issue in the past as well, and honestly, it's more work than it's worth. Having to feel stressed at every game date because you've got to deal with complaining is not fun.
In my case, any player that acted this way usually didn't really want to be there. They wanted to 'hang out with friends', or 'be entertained'. Pathfinder/D&D aren't the kind of games that cater to those people, unless you play really casual. Try asking them if they'd want to play a boardgame instead, and see what kind of response you get. When I asked my more problematic players that question, they responded without the slightest hesitation with a 'Yes'.
You should also consider looking for people who share the same amount of passion as you. Even if it's a small group, at least your hard work won't be going to waste.
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I want to promote verisimilitude in my game, and push the story over the mechanics, not the other way around, but it seems like no matter how hard I try I just get resistance. Even one player, who is a self-proclaimed actor and who has starred in a feature-length film (albeit what amounts to basically a locally made, hyper-low-production-value snuff film), tells me he has a hard time not being himself and making decisions for himself, because, "my character is me." Well, no Jeremy, your character isn't Jeremy, it's ****ing Thomar Loyalind, Cleric of Sarenrae!!! NOW GO OUT THERE AND KILL IN THE NAME OF GOODNESS, NOT FOR EXPERIENCE POINTS AND MOAR STATZ AND SPELLZ!!!!
If you want them to get into the game more and worry less about XP/items then change the tone of the game. I had to train my players out of meta gaming everything. I dropped XP like a bad habbit and slowed the flow of gold and magic items. If the players dont think killing everything is the best way to level up they may relax and go with the flow. Instead of the PCs getting 8 sets of leather armor they just find a coin purse with the money they'd make anyway. Saves time and energy figuring that all out. Try some of that and see if your game improves. There is no solid answer every table is different but as GM you got a lot of control over those issues you may be unaware of.
Well for starters I would definitely enforce that if they didn't say they did something prior to combat, cast a buff or draw a weapon, then that never happened. That forces them to keep their character and surroundings in mind. Obviously tell them before the next session you are doing this to avoid whining.
If they are so interested in the combat aspect then add a twist to that. Make it so that a bad guy escapes, combat focused PC's HATE that, and they will develop a real passion for pursuing that villain.
(emphasis mine)
I've had that backfire, unfortunately. Depending on the personalities of your players, they may instead turn on the GM, and blame them for the villain escaping. Or groan about how 'that isn't fair, why are you making this so hard, yadda yadda.'|
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Frankly I have a pretty simple rule when I DM, you do all the comments at the end of the session. Like did I misinterpret a rule? Was there a part of the session that you really enjoyed? Usually it cut down on the BS at that the table.
As for your players rolling their eyes about them inquiring about what they are doing, they should say it clearly. It's too easy to say that before rolling initiative, I have my weapon drawn and a bunch of buffs up. If you didn't say it or do it in game, I don't consider any of these bonuses valid.
Well also that's something to consider, you could make great background political intrigue and backstories for your npcs but if you are playing with an action focused group...just make it like an action film. While I do understand your pain, you have to know your audience as well.
Maybe if you don't feel like running these kind of stories, it might be better to find a new group eventually.
If they are so interested in the combat aspect then add a twist to that. Make it so that a bad guy escapes, combat focused PC's HATE that, and they will develop a real passion for pursuing that villain.
I did this to teach them a lesson and it nearly lead to TPK, even after I warned, "You're going to chase that wizard whose capabilities you aren't aware of down a dark staircase hidden behind a secret door and follow her into who-knows-what?"
"YEP!" was the response I got. Ugh.
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If they are so interested in the combat aspect then add a twist to that. Make it so that a bad guy escapes, combat focused PC's HATE that, and they will develop a real passion for pursuing that villain.I did this to teach them a lesson and it nearly lead to TPK, even after I warned, "You're going to chase that wizard whose capabilities you aren't aware of down a dark staircase hidden behind a secret door and follow her into who-knows-what?"
"YEP!" was the response I got. Ugh.
funny enough I remember a Spoony video about it. Spoony said during one session of Star Wars Saga, he had Darth Vader show up while the heroes were flying away in the millenium and shaking his fist at them. When they realized that Darth Vader was in the base, they turned back around and started shooting their blasters down at him and even going as far as going into the enemy base and chase him in all corridors. They were like "We are going to kill him!".
Essentially as Spoony said at the end, just don't have the villain show up like that. They will want to kill him.
Can I play. Really I have a hard time finding groups where I can be my character without falling into the pace of people who just might as well play Descent: Journey into Darkness. Do you have any reserve players that are... better.
If they are so interested in the combat aspect then add a twist to that. Make it so that a bad guy escapes, combat focused PC's HATE that, and they will develop a real passion for pursuing that villain.I did this to teach them a lesson and it nearly lead to TPK, even after I warned, "You're going to chase that wizard whose capabilities you aren't aware of down a dark staircase hidden behind a secret door and follow her into who-knows-what?"
"YEP!" was the response I got. Ugh.
WHAT?! I have the opposite problem. Most of my players run away from anything that SEEMS strong or dangerous.
Step 1:
Know your characters and what they do. I in fact required my players to go over their characters and what they want to accomplish with them with me. So I am never surprised by a high damage roll, the player explained to me 2 weeks ago that his new feat/class ability/magic item boosted his damage really high. Periodically have a review, in person or by email or what have you of each character. One dm in my group for instance keeps a record sheet of AC (with and without common buffs) saves, attack bonuses, certain skills so he has an idea of what we are capable of when prepping.
Step 2:
Explain that arguing with you at the table is unacceptable. You cant give ground here. The problem player wont just get better. Talk to him away from the table, explain the problem and then get a commitment from him that he will be more amenable. If he cant do that (and follow up on it) good friend or not, you shouldnt game with him. Its just plain rude to argue with the dm, or get annoyed when he asks you a question (though step 1 will help alleviate this a bit). You have to put your foot down here. If he really is your friend, he'll understand. If he isnt capable of that, hes probably not a person you have to game with. I have friends I care for very much that I dont do all the things I do socially with. Its just the way certain people are. You should be having fun when running a game. If you are getting stressed or feeling walked over, its an issue.
Step 3:
If you didnt state it, it didnt happen. Get a white set of small white boards. (or one big one) with space for each character. Have them write in dry erase marker things like buffs, how long it will last, when it was cast (if its an hourly thing), and where/how gear is being carried.
Step 4: Reward behavior you like. If you use xp, give bonus xp for creative solutions, or for solid roleplaying. Tell the players they are going to get these reqards if they do x, y, and z more often. I give out hero points since I dont use xp, but the concept is the same. Do the thing th dm wants you do, get a prize.
Step 5: Make your atmosphere more immersive. One thing I have noticed, is different people have different levels of theater of the mind. Simply telling people there is rubble on around may simply not register. Some people dont have the ability to keep track of such things. Some people wont remember there was a large alter in the corner that might be a good idea to look behind.
I have found 3d terrain works really well. I have miniature tables, charis, buildings, alters, etc (i really like Terra clips. Its a significant investment, but I found that once we started using 3d terrain, as well as putting actual scenery in (alters, chairs, tables etc) the players interacted with them. The jumped up on the table, they kicked over the chairs, they climbed up on balconies, and they searched behind altars more. The visual cues makes a big different. Plus they look awesome on the table.
There are other ways to do this. You can make really detailed maps, but if you always use generic flip maps or hand drawn maps that are mostly squiggles, the visual reminder is significantly less, particularly to people who are not likely to notice or remember such things. So figure out ways to help them out if subtle verbal hints are not working.
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Step 4: Reward behavior you like. If you use xp, give bonus xp for creative solutions, or for solid roleplaying. Tell the players they are going to get these reqards if they do x, y, and z more often. I give out hero points since I dont use xp, but the...
I'd be weary of this. Problem I had was the players would optimize for getting rewards. They would take actions that didnt make sense for story or character. I wanted my players to focus on what they as player and character wanted to do. Rewards got in the way of that. It can often hamper creative soltuions and thinking as well. Not saying it cant work at any table, but it didnt work at mine.
I'd be weary of this. Problem I had was the players would optimize for getting rewards. They would take actions that didnt make sense for story or character. I wanted my players to focus on what they as player and character wanted to do. Rewards got in the way of that. It can often hamper creative soltuions and thinking as well. Not saying it cant work at any table, but it didnt work at mine.
Step 4: Reward behavior you like. If you use xp, give bonus xp for creative solutions, or for solid roleplaying. Tell the players they are going to get these reqards if they do x, y, and z more often. I give out hero points since I dont use xp, but the...
But that is my point, the reward is for doing things you want them to do. If you want characters to do things that makes sense for their characters and the story, then reward them for focusing on their character and the story.
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But that is my point, the reward is for doing things you want them to do. If you want characters to do things that makes sense for their characters and the story, then reward them for focusing on their character and the story.I'd be weary of this. Problem I had was the players would optimize for getting rewards. They would take actions that didnt make sense for story or character. I wanted my players to focus on what they as player and character wanted to do. Rewards got in the way of that. It can often hamper creative soltuions and thinking as well. Not saying it cant work at any table, but it didnt work at mine.
Step 4: Reward behavior you like. If you use xp, give bonus xp for creative solutions, or for solid roleplaying. Tell the players they are going to get these reqards if they do x, y, and z more often. I give out hero points since I dont use xp, but the...
Catch 22. They wouldnt focus on story and character. They would focus on bits they thought I would like to earn them bennys. It was still artifical and the game suffered. I know you are probably thinking "what kind of single minded simpletons does pan play with?" and all I can do is shrug.
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This is kind of an advice thread, but I encourage general discussion on the topic as much as I am soliciting advice from other GMs. If you've read any of my other posts from the past few months, you have an idea of where I'm coming from.
I'm afraid I haven't read your other posts, so bear that in mind when interpreting my comments. :)
Especially during combat, when there's a lot going on, I'll ask my players sometimes to verify how they got to a certain number, for example, then I get an eyeroll and a belabored sigh and a response detailing the buffs, feats, d20 roll, and stats involved in the result.
If this happens frequently, then yes, constant interruptions are annoying. (And it goes both ways - it's a major pet peeve of mine if a player won't write down the sum total of their BAB+STR+whatever else doesn't change, and has to do the math with every... single... attack.) So the annoyance might not be so much about being questioned as about the constant slow-downs.
It's not that I don't trust them, but they'll spit out a number that sounds awfully high or bizarre given the circumstances and ask them to explain. I suppose this could be partially fixed if I had more awareness of each of my players' sheets and spells prepped?
Yes. Alternatively/additionally, knowing the baseline "norms" of the game will help. I don't know how experienced you are, but I know if someone's first character is a Finesse rogue attacking for 1d6+1 (or 2d6+1 on a Sneak Attack), then their eyes might pop when the raging barbarian hits for 2d6+12 at first level, even though that's completely basic.
You might consider approaching them before/outside the game and saying something like "I know it's annoying when I stop combat to ask about something, so could you guys give me an overview of your characters so I know what to expect?" They'll probably like the possibility of fewer interruptions, and of course everyone likes to talk about their characters. :)
Then again, I had one player (level 4, mind you!) tell me he did 34 damage the other night. I blinked at him a few times, and said, "What?"
"34 damage."
"But - how?"
"Oh, well I used two weapon fighting and do X damage on this roll and Y damage on this roll."
"Okay, thanks, but can you please roll them separately and tell me each sepa-"
"THAT'S THE WAY ADDITION WORKS, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF I ADD THEM UP OR DO THEM SEPARATELY."
Did he actually yell at you?
This would have devolved into an argument between this player and I which would have ended as a stalemate had I not just dropped the subject and moved on, despite the fact that it is important these damage rolls are calculated separately for purposes of DR and the like. Next turn, he gave them to me separately anyway, after putting up a fight against it in the first place.
Based partly on the fact that he complied on future turns, I bet he knows you need them separately for DR and it just slipped his mind because of the moment of frustration. Probably no spite or anything. :)
What's worse is, I have three other players watching this, and instead of supporting me as the GM, they roll their eyes because "there they go again" when clearly I'm the GM and what I'm asking isn't unreasonable. It's kind of a regular occurrence between me and this one player,
This sounds like maybe support for the "just frustrated with repeated interruptions" theory?
and I know I'll get snorts of derision if I attempt to GM fiat these types of situations. I feel like my hands are tied half (or more) of the time. Problem is, he's a good friend of mine and has been for a long time but he's got more system mastery (3 and 3.5e, anyway) than perhaps any of us
Have you ever seen Jet Li's Fearless?
AND he won't take NO for an answer, nor will he ever be convinced that he could ever be wrong on something.
Too many possibilities to offer any advice here, sorry. :(
Buuuuut I digress. Further to the point, there are other times where my players are going off to do some thing in the story, and they'll just want to gloss over the events in between,
Are they important events? Have you given them a reason to think they're important events? If the PCs finish a pow-wow with "Alright, let's go to the castle", it's completely normal to expect to fast-forward to where they arrive at the castle unless you stop them (i.e., "A couple of days into the journey, EVENT!").
In my experience, the only things most players expect (in advance) to spend real time on are
• Combat
• Dangerous exploration
• NPC interactions that they know will be important or is a major goal
• NPC interactions that they expect to let them highlight their favorite personality quirk of their PC
If you want something outside of those categories to not get fast-forwarded through, it'll always be your job to initiate. Don't take it as any kind of slight or problem or anything. :)
or when I ask a question pertinent to the situation at hand, say, "Is your weapon drawn?" they'll respond with, "Yeah, I drew it when I did X" except they never said they drew the weapon, or they'll say, "I cast mage armor on the way there" well after combat has started.
Handling this one's an art. Does it make sense that he would have drawn his weapon? Would it have cost him an action that he spent on something else, or could he easily have done it when he says he did it? Would drawing it back then have modified how events up to now played out? If it makes total sense and doesn't have repercussions, then fine, his weapon's out. Heck, sometimes I've had a player ask me whether he could say his weapon is already out, and I've pointed out that they're in the middle of a dungeon where anything that moves is probably going to eat them, so of course their weapon's out.
Similarly with buffs; if the party's 10th level and the caster usually has mage armor up, then sure, he probably cast it at breakfast and it's still running.Basically, not all the small stuff matters; unless you really have a reason to suspect foul play, just go with it. :)
Other issues that I run into are that my players seem convinced they can only do what is on their sheet or in the books -- they never seem to get very creative with their surroundings or act like the world around them is anything more than a painting. I always end up pointing out simple solutions to them when I notice they have turned "how do we get Bob out of that pit?" into a twenty minute discussion on their character abilities, skills, and strengths.
"Guys, there's plenty of rubble lying around... why not drop some in to give him a height advantage?"
That's probably one of two things.
One could be that they're used to higher level games where a pit is solved by a scroll of spider climb, not by nearby junk. If that's what they're used to, then yeah, they're not going to think of mundane solutions.Another (sad) possibility is past GMs - I've encountered GMs who really chafe at the idea of an obstacle being overcome via creativity instead of the expenditure of resources. I.e., the rubble just gets your legs caught, and make a Reflex save for half damage as your allies dump it into the pit, and the rope breaks, and DAMMIT USE YOUR SCROLL! If they're used to a conga-line of "gotcha"s from past experiences, they're going to stick to what they can show you in black and white. I once encountered some friction at a table because one player blocked another's opening for a full-attack because the first player was used to GMs considering it metagaming to coordinate their positioning at all. So this could be a matter of conditioning.
Oh, and are you sure you already told them about the rubble? ;)
What's worse than this is when they walk right through every room in a dungeon without searching once, then complain to me later that I haven't given them enough loot. I almost always give them a wink and a nudge and say, "You should go back there and look around."
I admit, this one baffles me. Do you mean they don't even open the door? Do you mean they ask what they see, and you call it an empty room but expect them to make some Perception checks that they don't end up announcing? Need more context on how exactly this plays out.
The problem is, when I help them out with solutions like this I feel like a dirty GM that has failed at his job and made it too easy for the players.
Too easy =/= failed as a GM. Sometimes easy is fun.
Or, maybe they want their challenge to be tied up in defeating the bad guy rather than in finding the gold. Remember, there's countless books FILLED with myriad classes, feats and spells to help you find new ways of killing monsters; meanwhile, finding loot consists of "Make a Perception check". That's the default difference-of-scope that's built into the game; if you want that ratio to be different than that, you're going to need to communicate that to your players, because they're probably assuming that the relative importance of spending table time searching for loot is about the same as the relative word count spent in the book on searching for loot.
Why don't my players get even this most basic P&P concept? SEARCH EVERYTHING.
Why is that the "most basic P&P concept"? Maybe that's how your first games went back in the day, and maybe that's even the habit/tradition you're used to as a result, but that doesn't mean it's a universal truth. I've GM'd over 30 published adventures, and played many more, and "search everything" simply isn't part of the package. Loot the bodies? Sure. Search for traps? At the door or the spooky altar, but usually nowhere else. Search for the macguffin you're actually trying to find? Yep. But "search everything" as a modus operandi is just not a baseline expectation that I've encountered with this game. Sounds to me like you carried your own past habits into this game as an expectation. Anyone who doesn't share a similar past won't have that same expectation, because it's not really built into the game by default.
Urrrg... I keep telling them to look through the book, take a look at the equipment lists, the magic item lists, to spend the gold they're earning, to become familiar with every feat, every SP, SU, and EX ability they have, because they're going to need them, and to pay attention to the spells they're prepping because damnit you're going to need restoration and you didn't prep it and now you're dying because you got strength drained by a shadow.
All kinds of things might be going on here. A cleric has access to every cleric spell every morning; do you know how daunting it is to read them all? Or maybe their last GM called it metagaming to prep restoration if they knew they'd need it (or to prep it at all). Maybe, like my wife, they're just not that into mechanics and are mostly there just to be around people for a few hours, and having a character sheet is just the entry fee.
Whatever the reason, it sounds like you're used to the game being played a certain way, and don't know how to handle it being approached differently. I suggest some open, friendly communication about what you and your players picture as the ideal game of Pathfinder. There's probably some great common ground to be discovered. :)
This type of thing comes up far too often. Are my players narrow-minded? Are my expectations too high? I mean, c'mon -- everyone should take along a tanglefoot bag or two on their first adventure, right? Everyone knows to search every room, right? So why don't my PCs?
Sounds like faulty assumptions to me. Certain casters or Finesse PCs can't spare the encumbrance of a tanglefoot bag; they're heavy! Some might consider it metagaming to bring such things prior to encountering a need for them or getting them as loot. Some are assuming a more realistic setting, where books are in the library and gold is in the treasury and gear is on the dead monsters, rather than every single room having a chance of containing valuables that someone decided to put under the floorboards for no good reason.
Your descriptions of what you expect "everyone" to do by default sounds like a very specific type of game that's very different from any Pathfinder game I've ever played. Not that there's anything wrong with it, you just can't expect others to bring in the same assumptions; you're going to have to communicate those ideas, because they're probably not the norm or what someone would expect if they're coming in "fresh".
I try to encourage my players to get into their characters, to not treat their sheet as a set of numbers for them to increase, and to become involved with the story. I had one NPC throw herself at the PC who is played by someone who considers himself a ladies man, and now he's constantly asking me, "What's with the ladies throwing themselves at me?" Why can't they find your character attractive? Why can't you see these ladies as characters in a story and not mechanics in a game?
Or maybe it would feel creepy to roleplay the flirting with you?
Why must every thing that happens be related directly to your character or the plot?
I think that's what a lot of people expect, seeing as this is a game about the characters and the plot. I'm honestly a bit startled at having even read that question.
But again, communication: maybe your players would be fine with your playstyle, but just don't know that's what's going on. Talk. :)
I want to promote verisimilitude in my game, and push the story over the mechanics, not the other way around, but it seems like no matter how hard I try I just get resistance. Even one player, who is a self-proclaimed actor and who has starred in a feature-length film (albeit what amounts to basically a locally made, hyper-low-production-value snuff film), tells me he has a hard time not being himself and making decisions for himself, because, "my character is me." Well, no Jeremy, your character isn't Jeremy, it's ****ing Thomar Loyalind, Cleric of Sarenrae!!! NOW GO OUT THERE AND KILL IN THE NAME OF GOODNESS, NOT FOR EXPERIENCE POINTS AND MOAR STATZ AND SPELLZ!!!!
So you're upset that he'd rather do something other than his real-life job when he's playing a game?
Is my group of friends doomed to the cheap dice rolling combat thrills of a hollow adventure path? Is it too late to bring them over to the side of light and show them what a tabletop RPG can really be?
Aaaaaand at this point, you've become a problem. You see one way as right and other ways as wrong. That is bad.
As it happens, these "hollow adventure paths" are Paizo's biggest product line (last I heard, at least). They are the backbone of the company, because people love them. When someone says "Pathfinder", odds are they're thinking of the kind of game one would experience when playing through an AP. If what you're after is something else, that needs to be communicated up-front. (Picking up the "communication" theme yet?)But in order to have meaningful communication, you're first going to have to give up your superiority complex and accept that your style is no better than "AP style". Not. One. Bit.
Feeling like I have to constantly toe the line between a good GM and a friend. I want to be more forceful, enforce rules and roleplay more stricly, but I feel like my players will just be put off and want to abandon me because it won't be fun anymore... and maybe that's just it... maybe my idea of fun and their ideas of fun are different...but I'm stubborn to a fault and if I have to fight this fight all the way to Runelord Karzoug, then damnit, I'm going to fight. I want my players to enjoy this game the way it was meant to be, not as a board game with lots of numbers and options, but as an interactive storytelling medium that gives more freedom than any damn video game ever made. UGH.
What the game was "meant to be" is FUN. If what you're wanting to do is going to make the game less fun, then the only person failing to "enjoy this game the way it was meant to be" is you. (Or if you want to appeal to history, remember that D&D was originally a spin-off of tactical wargames.)
Look, there's nothing wrong with the way you want to play. There's also nothing wrong with the way they want to play. The only wrongness in this whole picture is your belief that your way is better or is more intended. Either drop that attitude, or find a different group. As long as you keep looking down on other people's fun, no amount of GMing advice is going to help.
But of course I'll still offer the advice, just in case. :)
Sorry -- I'm pretty passionate. This past weekend was especially trying, being the third five hour straight combat session we've had (we're at the end of Burnt Offerings). I want my players to take a more active interest in the game and in the story, but I'm just not feeling like they care at this point.
Remember a minute ago when you were asking "Why must every thing that happens be related directly to your character or the plot?" And now you're asking how to get them to care about their characters and the story?
If you want them to care about their characters and the story, then make the game be about their characters and the story - instead of about searching every room and figuring out which element of their surroundings will get them out of a hole.
I'm sure I know what you're going to tell me for responses, and I appreciate the advice in advance, I just needed a place to vent to someone (or many someones) who understand the game and my frustrations and who aren't also the people I play with every week (since I obviously can't vent like this to them). I've written a lot here and if you've read through this entire post, I thank you.
You're welcome! Hope it was helpful!
So if I get the gist of your post right it boils down to "My players aren't playing right!". First to touch on a few of the things you mentioned -
Dice Rolling: I prefer to have my players roll their dice together and so do most of the other GM's I know. It streamlines combat and it feels good to throw down a handful of dice. If you don't like it that's fine but your player isn't actually doing anything wrong because the rules don't say you have to roll one die at a time, it sounds like your biggest issue is that you don't know/understand what they're playing with and that's causing the friction. From your brief example, to me 34 damage doesn't sound outlandish for a two weapon or two handed fighter, the eye rolls may be coming from you asking about things that have probably already been explained in the past. Feats don't change session to session and you have 100% control of the items so you should know what they have already. The best way to solve this problem is to have everyone leave a copy of their character sheet with you after the session so you can familiarize yourself with what they're working with and to just make your expectation on dice firmly known, but I will say I side with the players on the rolling situation 100% and I bet you'll agree it makes it faster when you stop and think about it objectively without the frustration of not knowing the characters.
...
I think you may have missed my point(s). I don't have a problem with players rolling all their dice at once -- I told them all to do so, because it makes combat go by that much faster (and none of them do, except for this one). My issue was specifically that I asked him to give me the two damage results separately and all he could do was argue with me.
Anyway, I've been through this before, and received similar responses, and all I can really say is that I DID ask them what kind of game they wanted to play, and they responded that they would love a role-play heavy adventure path. At this point, I just feel like I'm not doing enough as GM to draw them in and get them to where I'd like them to be. Complacent would be a good descriptive word, I think. I've said in other posts that every now and then I see glimpses of awesomeness but all too often that awesomeness is quickly replaced by, "What loot do they drop?" or some other tired gaming trope. I suppose I'll just start our next session with, "This is the kind of game I want to run: (explains kind of game), are you guys actually still interested? Are you willing to follow my lead and listen when I speak? Or will you sit there checking your phone until its your turn to roll the dice? If that's the case, you can leave." Because frankly, that's what I'm feeling right now.
FWIW, I'm running Rise of the Runelords AE, which really serves as a great introduction to Pathfinder (it being a reprint of the first PF publication and all) and Golarion in general. I'm not expecting my players to have any expectations beyond "generic fantasy land" until they get further in, since they're new to PF (but NOT tabletop gaming or d20 systems, and especially not D&D 3.5e).
Jiggy,
Lots of good stuff there but I think some of what I wrote may have also missed the mark. I wouldn't do anything to put my players in an uncomfortable position -- I had the ladies flirt with that player specifically because I knew he would handle it well. His constant questioning about them flirting and/or interacting with him has more to do with him trying to figure out what my game is, what my motives are... my point in asking, and the follow-up question "Why must every thing that happens be related directly to your character or the plot?", has to do with the setting -- why can't things be unrelated to the plot of the campaign and still evoke role-playing? My players treat EVERY interaction with an NPC like it's going to reveal crucial plot details, when really I'm just trying to add to the setting.
As for the "hollow adventure path" comment, what was meant is that I am trying to run an adventure path (Runelords), and I would like for it to be more than just a series of hollow combat encounters (how my players are treating it). I want the players to get involved in the plot, and they seem to want to roll dice (despite reassuring me every session that they actually want to role play). Why would the AP include so many opportunities for perception checks to find magical items and treasure if I should just gloss over it and say, "Hey you found it!"
I'm not looking down on other people's fun -- I honestly don't think they're having any more fun than I am. That is to say, it's not that we're NOT having fun, I'm just looking to elevate the role-playing aspect of the game and have my players step out of their own shoes and into their characters', because I think we would all have MORE fun. I think you've looked at my post from the perspective of someone who sees a power-mongering GM, which I assure you, I am not.
As someone above said: play to your audience. These guys want an action movie. They want to play 300 or Conan and they aren't interested in playing Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. That's fine. I've been running games for about 12 years now, and honestly each group is different in ways you may not imagine. For example:
Curse of the Crimson Throne: These five players are all about intrigue, building up a shipping empire, becoming friends with certain NPCs and trying to get certain others arrested. When they get into combat they have a harder time because their characters are built for more subtle encounters.
Jade Regent: These four guys are all about fighting. Social encounters are one step of Diplomacy to check whether or not they'll have to smash face, and if they do then so be it. They'll burn down a village if they have to. For these players I "montage" things that are out of combat unless they're crucial, I'm explicit in my descriptions and list only what is going to be useful to them, and although they're playing a travelling adventure path for these guys the different locales are just alternate terrains for blood to spill on.
E6 Mythic Homemade Campaign: These guys are a mix of the two (literally; 2 players from each group). The players who are more into intrigue are learning that sometimes it's ok to just fly by the seat of your pants and kill the messenger. The guys who enjoy hack and slash are seeing the value of talking your way through an encounter that could cost hitpoints. Essentially, each side is learning that there are benefits to the other: out of combat encounters can have a mechanical bonus in saving HP or spells, while combat or single-minded focus might just solve a problem that couldn't be finessed.
For you, it sounds like your players are my Jade Regent group. They want killing, they want you to TELL them what's important because otherwise they won't ask. When you craft encounters be sure to build them almost like a Zelda room: "You enter into a large square room with a massive pit spanning the center. Roll Perception." If they make the perception check then they've found the easy way through OR you give them a very obvious hint. If they don't, then you still give them some help, but they don't know that there's a small lever hidden in the wall that opens up a secret compartment filled with water and also sharks that fills in the pit. You'll still make it possible, just harder.
Also, if you want them to think outside the box more, give them encounters where they HAVE to think outside the box. A room full of traps that each character has to get through, but they can use their different ability scores to get through it in different ways. For instance, the fighter can use his strength score to hold back a swinging blade, but only if the wizard can make an intelligence check to call out the right time to jump over the spikes that are popping out of the floor at different intervals. The more you open them up to potential in obvious ways the more they'll ask, "Hey, can we try this?" because they've seen that it's a possibility. If not, then hey. At least it's interesting for you.
Finally, I use Hero Lab to keep track of all my players' characters. It ensures that the math is right, that I always have a copy of the character that I can bring up on my iPad, and because I own the copy and make the characters with them I've seen everything they've put in and know better than they do what they're capable of. And honestly you're well within your rights to ask a player to confirm math, but if they have issues with it frame it in such a way that you aren't making it sound accusatory but rather that you're IMPRESSED with how well they're doing and are genuinely interested in how they've pulled it off. Besides, if they can pump out that much damage that gives you a great idea for an enemy they can fight....
The more you DM the more familiar you become with idiosyncrasies and habits that different players have. To introduce this group to the wondrous scope of tabletop RPG systems you might have to take it one bite at a time after starting them off with a stripped-down version of the game. Don't throw the book at them, let them learn one encounter at a time how cool it is to make friends with a high level cleric who just needs them to do things outside of their comfort zone. Also, fudge things. Don't follow the books 100%. If they ask why something is the way it is, you're the DM. You can do whatever the hell you want, as long as they're having fun, and sometimes that's what it takes to get out of a DM rut and continue playing within the middle ground you've created for yourself and your players.
Good luck.
One of my biggest personal failings is that I expect other's to think like I think. That is my biggest problem as a GM and something I have had to overcome.
If player are missing things you consider odvious maybe they are not as odvious as you think they are. Once again, one of my biggest failings.
I wil echo what others have said.... you have to write for your audience. Before I start a new game I always talk to the players about the general setting and some of the things they should expect and I listen to their input on what they want in a game. I try to find a happy medium.
Remember, everyone should have fun, both the players and the GM.
Thanks for the helpful advice, folks. It's allowed me to once again step back and look at how I've described the situations from the perspective of others.
I suppose if you don't know me, it's difficult to tell my tone and you'd read my initial post differently than I'd intended. While most of you, I think, got the gist of my frustration at the situation, I think some of you mistook my semi-facetious desperation a bit too seriously...
While some of what I have said is exaggerated, and I thought it might be obvious by the tone of my post, most of my frustrations listed are true, and while the situations may be paraphrased or exaggerated to a degree, I hope you can boil them down to the actual problems that are frustrating me and not perceive it in such a way as to make me out to be a selfish, pedantic and/or power hungry jerk. Generally I'm a very self aware GM, and this is why I'm afraid that I'm the one who is failing my players -- hence the reason I question if I'M the one who is off the rails here. Anyway, I hope that wasn't missed in my initial or follow-up posts.
One thing I can highly recommend as a DM--though it may seem a bit off-topic here--is to try out an E6 campaign. I've been running one with Mythic tiers and it's been a blast. E6M (as I've been calling it) is really easy to make your own campaigns with. You can pretty much just recreate any Hollywood blockbuster fantasy movie / super action-ey book and it'll work. The adventure paths are great for players that really want to or like getting into settings, and speaking for myself as a DM they're a lot of fun to run. They give you a lot that you can expand on, but sometimes you just have to take the story and let it be bare-bones, and this might help you connect more with how your players want to play.
Also, and this may seem weird, but try to get another player in on your adventures or see if you can't plug one of your players into a more "serious" (and I use that term lightly and respectfully; "casual" isn't an insult like some people might think)tabletop RPG group. You might get them to be an ambassador for the rest of your friends and it'll give you some space to play out Pathfinder/D&D as you seem to enjoy running it. I'm the same way. I was always frustrated when my friends just wanted to hack and slash and eventually found some other guys who were more involved with the stories and characters. That gave me some breathing room to let one of my campaigns be a challenge for me to create "300: THE GAME THIS IS SPARTA BAM BAM BAM!!!" and just have fun with it, while the other(s) could play more to a different kind of group.
If you feel like you're failing your players take a step back and just look at what they're looking to get from the game. It doesn't seem from anything that I've read here in your posts that you want the game to go EXACTLY how you planned, just that you're trying to get your friends to appreciate the potential inherent in the system. That might take a while--and it may not come at all, so be prepared for that--but it'll be easier for you to change your expectations and be sort of like a teacher. Give them one thing at a time to let them explore what the game system has to offer, and if they're interested they'll want more. If it takes you two or three adventure paths before they really start getting into it, so be it. You're still hanging out and having fun, and that's really what the game is about.