Swashbuckler and the Auto-hit vs. the auto-miss.


Rules Questions


Hey guys, I tried to post this in the class discussion forum for the advanced class guide but for some reason it wouldn't let me add a new thread. This scenario came up in a PFS game today and both the GM and I were stumped. So here goes:

Scenario:
Swashbuckler attempts to use his opportune parry ability. Enemy rolls a natural 20 to hit (modified to an AC of 22). Swashbuckler's parry roll is also a natural 20 (modified to a 28).

Issue:
Natural 20's always hit.

The opportune parry ability reads:
"The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity. If her attack roll is greater than the roll of the attacking creature, the attack automatically misses."

So, I see two outcomes here.

One- It's a natural 20. You get hit. Suck it up wussy.
Two- since the modified attack roll of the parry is higher than the modified attack roll of the attack, the attack gets parried as normal ignoring the fact that it was a natural 20.

If you agree with outcome two, would you also agree if the parry attack roll wasn't a natural 20 but still higher than the modified natural 20? (I.E. a 15 modified to a 23)

Grand Lodge

Crane wing can parry a natural 20 as well, as can a monks deflect arrows ability.

Use the Swashbuckler rules in this case. It essentially pulls this part of the core rules into a side area where the SB rules take over. Once resolved 'core reality' snaps back into being.

Shadow Lodge

I think this is a case where specific (swashbuckler ability) trumps general (nat 20 auto-hits).


specific overrides general.

General rule -- 20 always hits.

Specific rule -- roll over what they did and they miss.


Abraham spalding wrote:

specific overrides general.

General rule -- 20 always hits.

Specific rule -- roll over what they did and they miss.

The problem is that I could equally argue this way:

specific overrides general.

General rule -- oll over what they did and they miss.

Specific rule -- ... unless they roll a natural 20, which always hits


Which is the more specific case?

Everyone that rolls an attack roll with a natural 20?

Or when a specific class (swashbuckler) does a specific thing (activates an ability) in a specific case (when attacked) causes a miss?

I mean yeah you could argue the other way.

But it would take a certain kind of special.

But if you don't like that consider:

The only point the ability activates is if an attack would hit.

Was there an attack? Yes
Would it hit? Yes
Did you roll higher? (presumably yes)
Attack misses.


Since a nat 20 always hits, what if you modified the rule in this instance. So your parry will fail to deflect the attack, and he hits you for damage, but at the same time, your parry is deflected into him, becoming a hit against the enemy.

Just a way so he can still hit, but your winning roll on your opportune parry doesn't just get ignored.

Grand Lodge

Thus adding ever more complexity.

Isn't there a FAQ somewhere on Monk deflect arrows or on crane style on 20 to give them a precedent ruling on this?


By my reading the foes attack does not need to hit to be parried under the current swashbuckler rules.


I my opinon, it is option 2.

Natural 20s automatically hitting, does not mean they can't miss for other reasons than AC.

- They still miss due to concealment miss chance.
- They still miss due to crane wing.

And they still miss due to Opportune Parry, since it is a auto-miss.

Compare it to Snake Style, which changes the AC. This doesn't help against a natural 20, since it hits despite AC.
Opportune Parry doesn't affect AC, it simply makes the attack miss.


My question would be how do you roll over a 20. You're physically rolling dice for this ability unlike crane wing or deflect arrows which are just "No you don't hit me" abilities. If the wording was you expend an attack of opportunity to make an attack against you kiss I'd say it could negate a natural 20 but it specifies that the roll has to be higher. If it said equal too or higher, like a regular to hit roll vs ac, then maybe but it's specifically only on a higher roll. Could be wrong but I have a feeling this will be closer to the intent than building in a crane wing style deflect that you can then also stack the real deal on top of.


DAT typo. Meant miss though kiss is pretty good.


tkul wrote:
My question would be how do you roll over a 20.

You don't roll over a 20, but the value of the die is not the final result; like any roll, it's the value of the die plus any relevant modifiers.

In this case, the Swashbuckler rolls "as if she were making an attack of opportunity", which means the player rolls a d20, adds the Swashbuckler's BAB, her STR (or DEX if she's using a finessable weapon and has the feat), weapon enhancement bonuses, and any other bonuses relevant to her attack.

Then you compare that number against the foe's attack result, and if it's higher, the Swashbuckler parries the attack.


tkul wrote:
My question would be how do you roll over a 20. You're physically rolling dice for this ability unlike crane wing or deflect arrows which are just "No you don't hit me" abilities. If the wording was you expend an attack of opportunity to make an attack against you kiss I'd say it could negate a natural 20 but it specifies that the roll has to be higher. If it said equal too or higher, like a regular to hit roll vs ac, then maybe but it's specifically only on a higher roll. Could be wrong but I have a feeling this will be closer to the intent than building in a crane wing style deflect that you can then also stack the real deal on top of.

It is referring to the modified attack roll. (d20+modifier)


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Seems pretty clear to me that if your modified roll beats the attackers modified roll, that makes it into a miss.

If the rule said something like "you make an attack roll as though making an attack of opportunity, and the attacker must hit either this result or your armor class, whichever is higher", then I would think the natural 20 rule would beat it. But it doesn't. It just says that if you beat their attack roll, they miss.

So basically, I don't think a natural 20 always hits against this parry any more than it always hits against a concealment miss chance, or a mirror image, or anything else that trumps normal attack mechanics.

Natural 20 always hits = general.
Swashbuckler's parry = specific.


One comment on crane wing: it does not cause an auto-miss, it deflects the attack. It's still technically considered a hit, according to the FAQ on deflection, it just negates all the damage and other related effects. The playtest document does not have this language, it just says the attack automatically misses.

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