RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Hey all!
This question came up at a game I was just playing!
If you are playing a game for no credit, can you progress boon sheets you might possess, like Research Specialist.
Research Specialist: ..at the beginning of a scenario, you may select a fellow party member. Up to once per scenario, if that character tells you of his or her exploits in an earlier adventure that your character has not played, document the name of the scenario, the agent's name, and that player's Pathfinder Societ number. For every three stories collected this way, you gain a permanent +1 bonus to one Knowledge skill of your choice; you may not choose the same Knowledge skill twice. If you successfully get 30 such stories, you gain a +1 inherent bonus to your Intelligence score.
Guide to Organized Play, pg. 20: ... You are free to replay a scenario in order to meet the minimum legal table size, but you do not earn any additional rewards beyond having a good time.
There's more text, but that's the most relevant and I'm on my phone, so I'd rather not type it all out.
Effectively, you are getting a slight mechanical advantage if a player advances their boon while playing for no credit. The question is, can you use the text in the Guide to prevent this? Since it says "you do not earn any additional rewards?"
Thanks!
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Personal opinion is that advancing a boon like that is a reward. I could see someone gaming it to get the +1 INT bonus earlier than level 11 (or 6 if slow track).
True, but considering they're replaying for no credit, 4-ish hours for each 1/3 of a level they might get that early, I don't think that's necessarily a horrible thing.
Edit: Or maybe not. Attribute bonuses are hard to come by, so ... hm.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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so ... hm.Exactly. Seeing someone do this, or claim to do this, would make me hesitate when writing more boons like this one.
More than just Research Specialist could cause this question to come up.
Erratic Luck: Once per scenario, if you roll (and keep) a natural 1 for any saving throw against a non-harmless effect during a scenario before rolling a natural 20 for a saving throw during the same adventure, record the name of the adventure and a brief description of the event. After recording five such unlucky situations, a god or goddess of luck gives you a change of fortunes. As long as you have yet to roll a natural 20 on any saving throw during the course of the scenario, you may re-roll the first saving throw of the scenario for which you roll a natural 1.
Just another, off the top of my head.
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so ... hm.Exactly. Seeing someone do this, or claim to do this, would make me hesitate when writing more boons like this one.More than just Research Specialist could cause this question to come up.
Erratic Luck: Once per scenario, if you roll (and keep) a natural 1 for any saving throw against a non-harmless effect during a scenario before rolling a natural 20 for a saving throw during the same adventure, record the name of the adventure and a brief description of the event. After recording five such unlucky situations, a god or goddess of luck gives you a change of fortunes. As long as you have yet to roll a natural 20 on any saving throw during the course of the scenario, you may re-roll the first saving throw of the scenario for which you roll a natural 1.
Just another, off the top of my head.
Yet another one of my favorites... ;-)
Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg
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Do you note this collected story on the chronicle for "Research Specialist", similar to "Erratic Luck"? If so, you're basically not getting that reward on the chronicle for the scenario you played for no credit.
Also, if you can only collect the stories when playing for credit, it will definitely become more difficult each time. There might be times when no character at the table has played any scenarios your character hasn't played.
But can you collect several stories about the same scenario? From what Walter quoted, the only restriction seems to be you can't collect stories about scenarios your character has already played. So, if for example you don't play First Steps part 1 with that character, could you collect 30 stories about First Steps part 1?
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Also, if you can only collect the stories when playing for credit, it will definitely become more difficult each time. There might be times when no character at the table has played any scenarios your character hasn't played.
I can say with certainty, that was by design. It wasn't supposed to be easy to get the final boon, and it wasn't supposed to happen too much before a character could afford a tome of clear thought.
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Also, if you can only collect the stories when playing for credit, it will definitely become more difficult each time. There might be times when no character at the table has played any scenarios your character hasn't played.I can say with certainty, that was by design. It wasn't supposed to be easy to get the final boon, and it wasn't supposed to happen too much before a character could afford a tome of clear thought.
Could always find someone like me who has characters with credits from mods and APs.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Lots of interest! Awesome. So some follow up.
For those that don't have a problem with allowing those boons to advance when playing for no credit: I understand why, but what rules back this up? We don't really have the luxury of saying, "well, it's not really hurting anyone, so why not!"
For those that are saying advancing those boons is illegal if you play for no credit, what in the rules are you using to back this up? Is it just that sentence I quoted from the guide (which I think would be a bit of a stretch), or is there some other relevant text I am missing?
To everyone: Do you think specific text regarding this should be added to the guide, even if it's just a sentence? IE: "When you play for no credit, you can/cannot advance any boons your character might possess."
Thanks!
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Illegal is a strong word but the line from the guide says all you get is a good time. Advancing a boon or otherwise seems like some sort of credit to me.
If something is disallowed in the Guide, to do it anyway would be a violation of the Guide. I would call that illegal in terms of PFS.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Though I can't speak for Mike, I believe the intent of that rule is to keep track of expandable and effects and that is all, you get nothing at all for it other then a good time.
Pushing this would either get Mike to clear that rule up or take it out all together and not allow replay for no credit.
I'd be strongly against removing the ability to replay for no credit. Otherwise, people that have invested the most time into the campaign will no longer be able to participate in local game days with the exception of GMing.
A simpler solution would be to say "no rewards mean no rewards -- these boons don't advance."
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I am not for or against, I am just warning. I have seen a few posts lately about people looking for advantages of replaying for no credit if Mike sees an increase of that he just may get rid of the rule as much as make it more clearer.
Though that said, I can neither speak for Mike or read his mind, not that I would want to read his mind. ;)
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I'd be strongly against removing the ability to replay for no credit. Otherwise, people that have invested the most time into the campaign will no longer be able to participate in local game days with the exception of GMing.
That's not entirely true, as there are new scenarios every month. Yes, I'd like more new scenarios every month, and the most active players are the ones that need those. We have very few players that replay for no credit locally. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but unless you're playing to make a legal table, then there's not much point. You've experienced the story and you've gotten a Chronicle. It's not like there are many (if any) surprises left at that point.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Walter and others play quite frequently. There are usually less than 5 scenarios that 3+ people can get credit for, so if they're not GMing, they're playing for no credit, because they simply enjoy playing pathfinder.I'd be strongly against removing the ability to replay for no credit. Otherwise, people that have invested the most time into the campaign will no longer be able to participate in local game days with the exception of GMing.That's not entirely true, as there are new scenarios every month. Yes, I'd like more new scenarios every month, and the most active players are the ones that need those. We have very few players that replay for no credit locally. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but unless you're playing to make a legal table, then there's not much point. You've experienced the story and you've gotten a Chronicle. It's not like there are many (if any) surprises left at that point.
David's correct. We routinely have one or two people each game day that show up with the knowledge that they most likely won't be playing for credit. But they still show up, and are some of our best participants.
I wouldn't want that to change by telling them they could no longer replay scenarios for fun.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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A simpler solution would be to say "no rewards mean no rewards -- these boons don't advance."I'm not sure Mike needs to come out and say this. You should assume that if he says "No Rewards" he means "No Rewards".
I don't see how Advancing a boon towards completion wouldn't be considered a reward.
Is this the text you read to reach that decision?
You are free to replay a scenario in order to meet the minimum legal table size, but you do not earn any additional rewards beyond having a good time.
I'm just curious if there's something else you're seeing that I am missing. Because when I read that it seemed to be in direct reference to the rest of the paragraph, and was in relation to not getting any rewards which might be on replayed game's chronicle sheet. And that confusion lead to me start this thread. Because if I could make that mistake, then I figure others could as well. And if that's the case, then a short clarification might be in order.
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Partially.
You cannot receive more than 1 player Chronicle and 1 GM Chronicle for the same scenario, regardless of how many times you GM or play the scenario. You are free to replay a scenario in order to meet the minimum legal table size (see Chapter 7), but once you have reached that limit, you do not earn any additional rewards beyond having a good time.
Once you get your first Player/GM chronicle you get no more rewards for playing that scenario. It does not say no more rewards that can only be found on that chronicle sheet. I find it hard to believe that getting a boon advanced would not be seen as a reward of replaying the scenario.
The rest of the paragraph goes onto explain what you record on the placeholder chronicle sheet. It is not a definition of what a reward is.
I'm personally having a hard time seeing the ambiguity here though, seems clear cut to me. Though maybe we can get Mike to clear it up in a future guide so that he can be more specific about what no rewards means.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I see your point -- it does come across as fairly clear cut.
I'd just dread witnessing what happens when someone has all 30 lines of their Research Specialist filled out, only to have a GM tell them it's invalid because some of the scenarios listed were played for no credit.
I also wonder what the boon's author (Seth Brummond, IIRC) would say as his intent was with it. If no-credit-replays don't qualify for it, it effectively makes the boon only worth applying to brand new characters, or those that are level 5 or lower, and want to be on the slow track for 6 levels. Which is still makes it super cool, just something that would be good to know.
For anyone that's curious, I applied my boon to a barbarian with an Intelligence of 8, so I'm fine with either ruling :P
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If someone wants to play the entire Quest for Perfection series for no credit, just for the boon, I can't decide if that is good or bad. I'm sure there is a very good reason why the rule is as it is, but perhaps someone can point it out to me.
Devil's Advocate: I have a level 5 Ranger. I run a bunch of 1s or 2s through the Quest for Perfection Series. APL of the party: (2 + 2 + 2 + 5)/4 = 2.75. Round up to 3. Between sub-tiers, but it's Season 0 - 3, so with 4 players you play down.
Danger to the level 5 is minimal. I get a free <boon>, my group gets free out-of-tier gold and a relatively risk-free level-up.
Clearly I stacked that case to make the point (although you could do the same with five 1s and a 5: APL 1.67), but this is the kind of thing some people will do.
Is that such a bad thing? I don't know.
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If someone wants to play the entire Quest for Perfection series for no credit, just for the boon, I can't decide if that is good or bad. I'm sure there is a very good reason why the rule is as it is, but perhaps someone can point it out to me.Devil's Advocate: I have a level 5 Ranger. I run a bunch of 1s or 2s through the Quest for Perfection Series. APL of the party: (2 + 2 + 2 + 5)/4 = 2.75. Round up to 3. Between sub-tiers, but it's Season 0 - 3, so with 4 players you play down.
Danger to the level 5 is minimal. I get a free <boon>, my group gets free out-of-tier gold and a relatively risk-free level-up.
Clearly I stacked that case to make the point (although you could do the same with five 1s and a 5: APL 1.67), but this is the kind of thing some people will do.
Is that such a bad thing? I don't know.
Good point. I'm sure it is potential abuses like this that are the reason replaying for no credit does not grant any reward.
I'm still undecided in the case of a separate boon. In that case, you aren't necessarily gaining the benefit from the scenario, but rather from the boon you already have. It could open the door for other abuses, though. I wouldn't give the boon to a character counting on it working that way, because I think there's a very good chance it will get clarified to not work.
As a note, though, in your first example, the level 2 characters would not receive out-of-tier gold, as they are 2nd level playing in the 1-2 tier. The APL doesn't matter for determining out-of-tier gold, only the actual character level and the actual tier played. The only way a level 2 receives out-of-tier gold in a 1-5 is if the group plays the 4-5 tier.
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As a note, though, in your first example, the level 2 characters would not receive out-of-tier gold, as they are 2nd level playing in the 1-2 tier. The APL doesn't matter for determining out-of-tier gold, only the actual character level and the actual tier played. The only way a level 2 receives out-of-tier gold in a 1-5 is if the group plays the 4-5 tier.
You are of course correct. This is why I have to check the Guide every single time I GM to make sure I'm doing it right.
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Clearly I stacked that case to make the point (although you could do the same with five 1s and a 5: APL 1.67), but this is the kind of thing some people will do.
Is that such a bad thing? I don't know.
If this was their intent, then no additional rules would really make a difference for the indicated group.
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Last time I checked, you only had to apply an "empty" Chronicle for a replay when you were replaying in order to meet a table minimum (i.e. when you are the 3rd player at a 3 player table). If you are replaying for any other reason there is no requirement that you add a Chronicle to your PC.
Has the wording of this rule been changed?
