Greater Brawler and TWF


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I have a very simple question with a not-so-simple answer.

If a barbarian has the "Greater Brawler" rage power:

Greater Brawler wrote:

Prerequisite: Brawler rage power

Benefit: While raging, the barbarian is treated as if she has Two-Weapon Fighting when making unarmed strike attacks.

Is she qualified to take the TWF feats (Improved/Greater TWF, Two-Weapon Defense)?

Thanks again for your answers!


Yes, the Greater Brawler rage power would qualify you for taking ITWF, GTWF, and the other TWF feats (so long as you met the other prerequisites).

However, you could not benefit from any of them when you're not raging.


fretgod99 wrote:

Yes, the Greater Brawler rage power would qualify you for taking ITWF, GTWF, and the other TWF feats (so long as you met the other prerequisites).

However, you could not benefit from any of them when you're not raging.

Thanks!


fretgod99 wrote:

Yes, the Greater Brawler rage power would qualify you for taking ITWF, GTWF, and the other TWF feats (so long as you met the other prerequisites).

However, you could not benefit from any of them when you're not raging.

I wouldn't be so sure.

This post by SKR says that, unless you meet a requirement all the time, you do not actually meet the requirement. Granted, he's referring specifically to flight, but I'd wager that the answer would be extrapolated to apply to any situation (at least if you asked Jason Bulmahn, whose opinion SKR is forwarding).

If this is for a home game, talk to your GM; if it's for PFS, it probably won't work.


Honorable Goblin wrote:


I wouldn't be so sure.

This post by SKR says that, unless you meet a requirement all the time, you do not actually meet the requirement. Granted, he's referring specifically to flight, but I'd wager that the answer would be extrapolated to apply to any situation (at least if you asked Jason Bulmahn, whose opinion SKR is forwarding).

If this is for a home game, talk to your GM; if it's for PFS, it probably won't work.

It's more complicated than that.

SKR is passing on JB's opinion...but he states right there that it's needlessly complex, and he doesn't agree with it.

And, again, it's referring only to Flight, not anything else.

Extrapolating it to any situation just puts the "reliable means of having X every day" in there, which is more of an argument FOR allowing this than against it (when will a Barbarian not be able to Rage every day?).


So, if you can't have the prerequisites for a feat "all the time" then you can't access that feat?

What happen when you take Dodge and (for whatever reason, but let's say aging) you don't have the "Dex 13" requirement? You lost a feat slot? Can use it to get another feat?


Reshar wrote:
So, if you can't have the prerequisites for a feat "all the time" then you can't access that feat?

That's debatable.

Reshar wrote:
What happen when you take Dodge and (for whatever reason, but let's say aging) you don't have the "Dex 13" requirement? You lost a feat slot? Can use it to get another feat?

This is not.

If you no longer meet the prerequisites for a Feat, you can no longer benefit from that Feat. Essentially, yes, you've lost a Feat slot (until you retrain it or get the prereq back).


Rynjin wrote:
Reshar wrote:
What happen when you take Dodge and (for whatever reason, but let's say aging) you don't have the "Dex 13" requirement? You lost a feat slot? Can use it to get another feat?

This is not.

If you no longer meet the prerequisites for a Feat, you can no longer benefit from that Feat. Essentially, yes, you've lost a Feat slot (until you retrain it or get the prereq back).

But still counts if that Character, granted he had also IUS, wants to take Crane Style?


A character with a headband of _2 Intelligence could use it to qualify for Combat Expertise. A character under the effects of Fox's Cunning (I think thats the one) would not. So there's a soft limit somewhere. I would count a rage power as qualifying. You would not in any case be able to use the other feats without access to the initial feat, which you only have while raging.

EDIT: A character with dodge who then aged, would not be able to take crane style. If they could take it, they couldn't use it as they don't count as having dodge.


^Exactly.

If you have a Feat chain, and you lose the prerequisites for one of the Feats in the chain, all subsequent Feats are turned off as well.


Rynjin wrote:

^Exactly.

If you have a Feat chain, and you lose the prerequisites for one of the Feats in the chain, all subsequent Feats are turned off as well.

Which is why feats shouldn't have redundant prereqs. Especially since it's random when they do or don't. Crane style doesn't actually require Dex 13. If a character can gain dodge as a bonus feat, they can take crane style without 13 Dex. But a cahracter who gains power attack as a bonus feat must still acquire Str 13 before taking Cleave, for a random example. It's nonsense.

/rant


But can't the Brawler take Improved Two Weapon Fighting at level 7 and have it apply only while flurrying? It seems like a similar situation that would apply equally well here.


Honorable Goblin wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:

Yes, the Greater Brawler rage power would qualify you for taking ITWF, GTWF, and the other TWF feats (so long as you met the other prerequisites).

However, you could not benefit from any of them when you're not raging.

I wouldn't be so sure.

This post by SKR says that, unless you meet a requirement all the time, you do not actually meet the requirement. Granted, he's referring specifically to flight, but I'd wager that the answer would be extrapolated to apply to any situation (at least if you asked Jason Bulmahn, whose opinion SKR is forwarding).

If this is for a home game, talk to your GM; if it's for PFS, it probably won't work.

A few posts later in the same thread he states that an Alchemist with Feral Mutagen can take Weapon Focus (Claws). Same idea. It would only do anything while that ability is active.

EDIT: From that same thread, here's an even more explicit post:

Bobson wrote:
Not only that, but you'd have to do it all over again to reactivate the Power Attack feat.
The "24 hour activation" doesn't have anything to do with qualifying for feats. If you have a Str 13, you can take Power Attack. It doesn't matter if you have it naturally, or a +2 from a belt, or even a +4 from a barbarian rage or bull's strength spell--the instant you have the required ability score, you can learn the feat, and you can use the feat as long as you're meeting all the prerequisites (which means you could have a character who can only PA when he's under the effect of a rage or bull's strength spell).


He clarified that more recently, stating that was his personal opinion on how it should work, but the official stance by the dev team as a whole is that while permanent bonuses will satisfy ability score prerequisites, temporary bonuses will not. However, given the prescedent set by the Fly skill, being able to reliably satisfy a non-ability score prerequisite, even if it's only a limited number of times per day, is sufficient.

So if you have 12 Str, a +2 belt worn for more than 24 hours will boost it to over 13, satisfying the 13 Str prereq on Power Attack. Barbarian Rage or Bull's Strength, however, would not. But Feral Mutagen to gain claws will still satisfy the prereq of having Claws to take feats with Claws as a prereq just as being able to cast the Fly spell satisfies the requirement to be able to reliably practice flying to take skill ranks in the Fly skill.


Kazaan wrote:

He clarified that more recently, stating that was his personal opinion on how it should work, but the official stance by the dev team as a whole is that while permanent bonuses will satisfy ability score prerequisites, temporary bonuses will not. However, given the prescedent set by the Fly skill, being able to reliably satisfy a non-ability score prerequisite, even if it's only a limited number of times per day, is sufficient.

So if you have 12 Str, a +2 belt worn for more than 24 hours will boost it to over 13, satisfying the 13 Str prereq on Power Attack. Barbarian Rage or Bull's Strength, however, would not. But Feral Mutagen to gain claws will still satisfy the prereq of having Claws to take feats with Claws as a prereq just as being able to cast the Fly spell satisfies the requirement to be able to reliably practice flying to take skill ranks in the Fly skill.

So Greater Brawler should function like Feral Mutagen and work to grant proficiency for ITWF and the like, but only when raging.

On the other hand, the strength bonus from raging would not be sufficient to satisfy the prerequisite for something like Power Attack. I think that's a bit ridiculous, but I don't make the decisions. *shrug*


It's odd, but that's how it is. It's because a temporary bonus doesn't actually increase the relevant stat until it graduates to permanent. If you have 11 Strength, and get a +2 Str bonus from Bull's Strength, you still have only 11 Strength, but you are effectively raising your Strength Modifier from +0 to +1 when applied to rolls and DCs. It doesn't count towards Uses/Day, feat prerequisites, or anything similar. By the same notion, if you suffer Strength Damage, it's also making an adjustment to your effective modifier rather than the stat itself so if you have 13 Strength and suffer 2 points of Strength Damage, you still have 13 Strength, but your modifier drops from +1 to +0 when applied to rolls or DCs. This means that Str Damage can't cancel out your prerequisites. Drain, on the other hand, will (but it's more rare).


No, I get why they're ruling that way, I just think it's ridiculous for a class ability like raging. But, having a blanket ruling does create fewer exceptions. *shrug*

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