When exactly do "At the end of your turn" powers occur?


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion

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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Pondering some of card interactions and I was thinking about Amiri loosing to a monster like the Ghoul.

Ghoul's card wrote:
If undefeated, reset your hand and end your turn.

So I started thinking, does this mean Amiri can't use her power at the end of her turn? And of course the same thing would be an issue with Lem, Harsk, and Seelah as well. And maybe more that I'm not thinking of.

The turn sequence in the rulebook end with these steps:

Updated Rulebook page 9 wrote:
  • Reset Your Hand: You may no longer play any cards this turn, but you may discard any number of cards from your hand. If you have more cards in your hand than the hand size listed on your character card, you must discard cards until the number of cards in your hand matches your hand size. Finally, if you have fewer cards than your hand size, you must draw cards until the number of cards in your hand matches your hand size.
  • End Your Turn: When you’re done, the turn passes to the player on your left.

So, I guess maybe it comes down to, does using a power count as playing a card? If yes, then loosing to the Ghoul means Amiri can't move. If no, she can. Asked another way, I guess the question is, does Amiri move before resetting her hand or after?

I've not played the other characters yet that have "end of the turn" powers, but my wife plays Amiri so I've had some reason to think about it more. I'm leaning more towards the idea that she can still use her power, since activating character powers seems to be treated separately than playing cards. (Since you can activate each character power 1 while you are only able to play 1 card of each type during the encounter steps, activating powers doesn't seem to be "playing" the character card.) And it doesn't seem logical she would move before resetting her hand.

I've read h4ppy's turn-sequence-docs on BGG, but I could not find a post that explicitly cleared this up.

Or maybe I'm asking the wrong question. Maybe the Ghoul is the one saying, "You only get to do two things now, reset your hand and pass the turn to the next character." So Amiri couldn't move in that case. That sounds like a stronger possibility than everything else I just wrote.

You can clearly see I'm confused. Please help.


Thematically speaking, I think the "reset hand/end turn" power equates to unconsiousness, paralyzation, or some other "you can't do anything" status, so I would imagine the answer would be: "You only get to do two things now, reset your hand and pass the turn to the next character."

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Flat is correct.


Ok... Sort of glad this came up as I definitely thought that end of turn effects went off regardless of how your turn ended (unless a card specifically indicated to ignore end of turn effects). I kind of thought that was the point of having something work at "end of turn".

Amiri's ability for example clearly says she can move at the end of her turn, not "before resetting her hand" or something like that.

In terms of this situation you might say that it's obvious that something ending your turn prematurely would skip all that but I would disagree as in my mind all it does is skip you ahead to the end of turn step since the card doesn't specify otherwise.


@Hawkmoon - this is new to me too. I'll add a note about it to the Turn Sequence docs next time I update them.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

We're talking about this. Obviously, Amiri and Harsk care a lot about the outcome of this discussion. So hang loose.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Mike Selinker wrote:
We're talking about this. Obviously, Amiri and Harsk care a lot about the outcome of this discussion. So hang loose.

I realize you are still talking about it, but since it looks like this resulted in an FAQ update, I just wanted to make sure I'm noting all the implications. I'm sure you realize all this too, but I've been thinking about it more and more.

FAQ update wrote:
"You may no longer play any cards or use any powers this turn, but you may discard any number of cards from your hand."

If left as is in the FAQ, that would mean that Amiri, Lem and Harsk would all have to use their "end of turn" powers just before resetting their hands. And then begin resetting their hands. Here are the implications I can think of with that.

1. Amiri is done exploring and has no cards left in her hand. She uses her power to move to the Temple without paying the price to do so. She then resets her hand. (Thus Amiri's power has a slight advantage with end of the turn powers happening before resetting your hand.)

2. Virtuoso Lem is done exploring and wants to switch a card in his hand with a card in his discard pile. But he has no cards left in his hand, so he can't. (Thus Lem's power has a slight disadvantage with end of the turn powers happening before resetting your hand.)

Obviously if you wanted Amiri to have that advantage but not give Lem a disadvantage, Lem's power could be updated to "or after resetting your hand" instead of simply "or end" as it is now.

I haven't been able to yet think of a situation where the issue of before or after resetting your hand makes a difference for Harsk or Seelah.

Also, as written the FAQ technically create a problem for Seoni playing the display spells. Glibness for example:

FAQ'd Glibness wrote:
Glibness: "Display this card and select a character. For the rest of the turn, add 3 to that character's checks that use her Charisma die. Discard this card at the end of the turn."

So if that last sentence actually happens in the turn sequence after resetting your hand, then Seoni can't use her power to recharge the spell instead of discarding it. (Or at least on her own turn if you want to apply the "you may no longer" portion only to the character's whose turn it is.) I obviously don't think that was your intent, but I could see it being a reasonable reading of the rules as is.

Then you have to ask the next question: So if these powers go before resetting your hand, what does that mean for the "close a location" step? In other words, can Amiri use her power to move to a location with an empty location deck and attempt to close it? (I think the answer here is no either with or with out the FAQ update, but it will probably be the next question, so its worth noting now.)

I'm not trying to be nit-picky, but since I asked the question that seems to have resulted in changing the FAQ, I wanted to be as helpful as I could in pointing out the other things I've thought about it.

Absolutely love the game. I can't say that enough. And I can't imagine how hard these kinds of things must be to figure out. Thanks for figuring them out for us.

For me, the most important thing is having fun. I don't play Lem (though Calthaer does in one of our group campaigns) and no one is actually playing a Virutoso Lem yet because Fortress of the Stone Giants isn't relased yet (unless they are replaying sceanrios) but if I did I think that for now I'd be letting Lem use his power after resetting his hand and Amiri had to use hers before resetting her hand. And Seoni gets to recharge the arcane display powers, even if she has to do so after resetting her hand.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

I have noted all of that myself, and am going to bring it up tomorrow. These things are indeed hard to figure out, but it's not string theory or anything. We'll sort it out.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Thanks Mike. Appreciate the work. I have complete confidence in you and the rest of the team.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

We have amended the FAQ entry:

For the rest of the turn, you may only play cards or use powers that say they can be used at the end of the turn.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Ok. So just to clarify:

Amiri moves after resetting her hand, so she can't go to places like the temple payment free.

Virtuoso Lem can swap cards after resetting his hand, so he'd be sure to have cards in hand as potential swaps.

But one little thing. The display spells like Glibness. When instructed to "discard this card at the end of your turn" is it:

A. Discarded before resetting you hand, so Seoni can use her power to recharge it instead? If so the cards might be clearer if changed to "Discard this card before resetting your hand." Or something like that.

or

B. Discarded after resetting your hand, but the card says to do something at the end of your turn and Seoni's power changes that something the card is doing, so Seoni can still automatically recharge it? If so, maybe the FAQ would be better stated more like "For the rest of the turn, you may only play cards or use powers that say they can be used at the end of the turn or that effect cards displayed at the end of your turn." Or something like that.

or

C. Seoni can't use her power to recharge that kind of spell?

Sorry to be nit-picky again. I hate it when I'm that way.


Vic Wertz wrote:

We have amended the FAQ entry:

For the rest of the turn, you may only play cards or use powers that say they can be used at the end of the turn.

This new ruling has some potential side effects which I'm guessing were unintentional. The issue Hawkmoon gave above is one of them.

Another one would be drawing Levitate when you reset your hand. Under the previous ruling...

Vic Wertz wrote:

Reset your hand: You may no longer play any cards this turn, but you may discard any number of cards from your hand.

... it's clear that any cards you drew from resetting your hand this turn can't be played on this turn.

The new ruling suggests you could play Levitate immediately after drawing it when resetting your hand. Maybe it's fine like that, but I don't know if this was intentional or not. It might not be game-breaking, but it seems a little weird to me. I don't have the cards in front of me, so I don't remember if there's any other cards that have "at the end of the turn" powers.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

Isn't that when you've been playing Levitate anyway?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Haste too I think. But maybe that makes sense...

I'd been playing these movement spells with Ezren just before resetting my hand. But if it always said "at the end of your turn" and there is a step in the turn sequence labeled "End your turn" I probably should have been playing it then anyway. For Ezren, he has the potential to draw a card (well I guess that depends on the question I raised just above being answered as B) if his next card is a spell, but for everyone else playing haste on your own turn will mean you start your next turn a card short.

This matches with playing a movement spell at the end of someone else's turn, when you wouldn't get to draw a card. So then movement spells for you and for others would be equal, it means you start your next turn a card short.

Side note: New suggestion to my option B resolution: "For the rest of the turn, you may only play cards or use powers that say they can be used at the end of the turn or that effect other cards played at the end of your turn."

Since discard is defined as a type of way of "Playing a card", Seoni could recharge and Ezren could draw with that rule. If that is the intention.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

Hawkmoon269 wrote:

But one little thing. The display spells like Glibness. When instructed to "discard this card at the end of your turn" is it:

A. Discarded before resetting you hand, so Seoni can use her power to recharge it instead? If so the cards might be clearer if changed to "Discard this card before resetting your hand." Or something like that.

or

B. Discarded after resetting your hand, but the card says to do something at the end of your turn and Seoni's power changes that something the card is doing, so Seoni can still automatically recharge it? If so, maybe the FAQ would be better stated more like "For the rest of the turn, you may only play cards or use powers that say they can be used at the end of the turn or that effect cards displayed at the end of your turn." Or something like that.

or

C. Seoni can't use her power to recharge that kind of spell?

Sorry to be nit-picky again. I hate it when I'm that way.

I like it when you're that way.

Anyway, my read is that Seoni's power is affecting an end-of-turn effect, so it counts. Not sure what other folks think on that.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

That is how I would want to read that rule too. And that means it would apply to Ezren and a movement spell as well. And your wording is better than mine. So maybe (since you probably didn't see my Ezren comment yet):

"For the rest of the turn, you may only play cards or use powers that say they can be used at the end of the turn or that affect another end of the turn action or effect."

And just to add on there, that means Amiri trying to leave the Treacherous Cave at the end of her turn could use the Amulet of Fortitude to succeed at the check to move (assuming I'm remember correctly that it is a Fortitude check.) Or she could also use a blessing to improve the roll. All of which would be done after resetting her hand.


Just to clarify my own confusion - so the change of the resetting hand wording would then mean that anytime you skip to the reset/end of turn phase you do indeed activate end of turn effects, whether you got there from a ghoul ending your turn or just by normally ending the turn?


Mike Selinker wrote:
Isn't that when you've been playing Levitate anyway?

Nope. The rulebook, prior to the FAQ update, seems pretty clear on this:

Quote:
Reset Your Hand: You may no longer play any cards this turn, but you may discard any number of cards from your hand. If you have more cards in your hand than the hand size listed on your character card, you must discard cards until the number of cards in your hand matches your hand size. Finally, if you have fewer cards than your hand size, you must draw cards until the number of cards in your hand matches your hand size.

Plus, the example of play on page 20 also suggests Levitate gets played before you would reset your hand:

Quote:
He gained 2 cards and played only 1, so if he resets his hand now, he'll need to discard down to his hand size of 6. Instead, he plays his new Levitate spell to move to the Desecrated Vault...

Because the example player is using Levitate *before* he would need to discard down to his hand-size while resetting his hand, the implication is that effects that happen "at the end of the turn" happen *before* you reset your hand.

I know that h4ppy's timing sequence document suggests there's an "end of turn" window after you reset your hand in which you can play "end of turn" cards/powers, but that doesn't seem to be directly supported by the rulebook. The FAQ update Vic mentioned above, however, does support it.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Brainwave wrote:
Just to clarify my own confusion - so the change of the resetting hand wording would then mean that anytime you skip to the reset/end of turn phase you do indeed activate end of turn effects, whether you got there from a ghoul ending your turn or just by normally ending the turn?

Oh yeah. That was actually where my original question came from wasn't it?

Well, as is he doesn't say you can't use end of your turn powers. But Vic says the idea is you won't get to do anything because you are paralyzed. So I would think you can't do anything new, but you can use any powers to complete actions already in effect. In other words, no moving, no swapping cards, but Seoni can recharge any display spells in effect still, because she's really just finishing an already played card.

So maybe he should say: "If undefeated you may not play any additional cards or use any power except to recharge cards already played; reset your hand, and then end your turn."

That leaves in play Seoni's recharge power, but blocks Amiri, Lem, Harsk, or Seelah. It also blocks movement spells.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

We don't need to specify that you can recharge a thing—that's allowed by the "finish one thing before starting another" rule.

To go a bit further, clearly the ghoul lets you "resolve the encounter"—if it didn't, the card would be left sitting on top of the deck, and I can't imagine anybody thinks it's supposed to do that.


If the intention is still that the ghoul forces end of turn *without end of turn powers or cards being able to be used* then I agree with Hawkmoon that cards like that probably need a bit more explanation. As it's currently worded it jumps you to the end of turn step ahead of time, sure, but I personally don't believe in reading in what I think a creature might do or whatever into a card, so I get to the end of turn step and do whatever would normally happen at that point. I don't think - oh it's a ghoul, I'm probably supposed to be paralyzed.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:

We don't need to specify that you can recharge a thing—that's allowed by the "finish one thing before starting another" rule.

To go a bit further, clearly the ghoul lets you "resolve the encounter"—if it didn't, the card would be left sitting on top of the deck, and I can't imagine anybody thinks it's supposed to do that.

I know this thread has gotten long and forked into multiple things, so just to be clear, my question was more about "end of the turn" effects on cards and powers. With the FAQ updated as is, it seems you do end of your turn things after resetting your hand but before passing play to the next person. i.e. during the "end your turn" step of the turn sequence.

That raised the following issues in this thread (not necessarily by me or in this order). Note that below when I say "resetting your hand" I specifically mean making sure you are at your hand size by drawing or discarding:

These three have nothing to do with the Ghoul:
1. Are spells like Levitate and Haste supposed to be played before or after resetting your hand? The plan reading would seem to indicate after resetting your hand, but the example of play has Ezren play Levitate before resetting his hand specifically so he can avoid discarding a card.

2. If they are to be played after resetting your hand, can Ezren use his power to draw the next card in his deck if it is a spell? His power isn't clearly an end of the turn power. Mike said above that such a thing would be effecting an end of the turn card, so it would reason it should be allowed.

3. Do you discard spells like Glibness, Strength, Speed, Toxic Cloud and Incendiary Cloud (and therefore attempt to recharge them) before or after resetting your hand? If after, than can Seoni use her power to recharge them? This is what Mike particularly said he thought was ok because her power was affecting an end of the turn effect. (This would also Seoni won't get to draw these same spells when she has a low deck since she would have drawn before discarding them.)

4. Assuming end of your turn power happen after resetting your hand, can Amiri play a card to help her succeed at the check needed to use her power to move from a location with a rule prohibiting free movement?

These questions are more focused on the Ghoul:
5. What exactly is the Ghoul's punishment for failing to defeat him? Is it just that you can't explore again or are there supposed to be other limits too, like not being able to play end of your turn powers/cards? In other words, can Amiri move to another location at the end of her turn after loosing to the Ghoul or can Virtuoso Lem swap a card?

6. If it is the greater punishment, and if question 3 is that you discard them after resetting your hand, and if Seoni can normally recharge them, then what if Seoni had played Toxic Cloud earlier in her turn when she encountered a skeleton horde, then encountered the Ghoul on an additional exploration, cast Force Missle to attempt the check to defeat him and failed. She can recharge Force Missile due to the "finish one thing before you start another" rule, but that doesn't seem to apply to Toxic Cloud which is already in play. So could she recharge Toxic Cloud via her power? And if it were Ezren in the same situation instead of Seoni, could Ezren attempt the check to recharge Toxic Cloud?

My guess is that the intent was for Ezren to get to draw a card if its a spell, no matter when in his turn he played a spell; for Seoni to recharge an arcane spell no matter when in her turn she played the spell, and for anyone to be able to attempt to recharge displayed spells after loosing to the ghoul. The other stuff, I'm not so sure on.

Please understand I ask all this with only the utmost admiration for this game and in an attempt to be helpful. And I'm seriously not trying to be stubborn or overly caught up in the minutiae about this. Maybe its just me that is having a hard time with this or maybe there is something I'm missing.


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Hawkmoon269 wrote:
3. Do you discard spells like Glibness, Strength, Speed, Toxic Cloud and Incendiary Cloud (and therefore attempt to recharge them) before or after resetting your hand? If after, than can Seoni use her power to recharge them? This is what Mike particularly said he thought was ok because her power was affecting an end of the turn effect. (This would also Seoni won't get to draw these same spells when she has a low deck since she would have drawn before discarding them.)

Just to understand the range of this point Hawkmoon.

This would mean Seoni could die while still having 1 card left because she would have recharged that 1 card after she died, right?

@Hawkmoon: It´s from another topic, but why split it.
I avoided cold turkey after finishing HMM for the second time by building 4(because i always play in a 4 char group) new homebrew chars and started again from the Perils.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Developer

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
I know this thread has gotten long and forked into multiple things, so just to be clear, my question was more about "end of the turn" effects on cards and powers. With the FAQ updated as is, it seems you do end of your turn things after resetting your hand but before passing play to the next person. i.e. during the "end your turn" step of the turn sequence.

We're working on another update that will clarify things, but I suspect it you reconsider your questions with the understanding of when recharging spells happens, most of them go away.

There are a couple tricky points in there, though; we're looking at it.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Fenris235: That would be the implication I was trying to get across, despite missing a word or two in that sentence, if I was understanding things correctly. That is a big if though. As you will see below.

Chad: Thanks for the response. I was going to type back, "What do you mean?" But decided I should take a moment to search the rulebook for when recharging happens. And sure enough that fancy old CTRL+F key combo came in big.

So this is what I think you mean (though it wouldn't be the first time I've misunderstood something): First, I should remember the general rule of "Finish one thing before I start another." Second the encounter a card sequence looks like this:

"Updated rulebook page 10 italics mine for emphasis wrote:
  • Evade the Card (optional)...
  • Apply Any Effects That Happen Before the Encounter, If Needed...
  • Attempt the Check...
  • Attempt the Next Check, If Needed. If another check is required, such as if you played a boon with a check to recharge, or if your bane requires a second check to defeat, resolve it now. Repeat this step until you have resolved all such checks.
  • Apply Any Effects That Happen After the Encounter, If Needed.
  • Resolve the Encounter.

So, the implication is that when Ezren plays a display spell like Toxic Cloud being played in response to encountering a Zombie Horde, he attempts the check as soon as he has finished all the other things he was doing, but could then continue with his turn, knowing that when he ends his turn he would already have succeeded at the check to recharge it. Therefore he wouldn't attempt the check after resetting his hand. So this would be a plausible sequence of events:

Ezren encounters Zombie Horde
Ezren plays Toxic Cloud
Ezren attempts the check to recharge Toxic Cloud, succeeds, but succeed or fail leaves it in play.
Ezren encounters his Zomibe, plays Lightning Bolt, defeats the Zombie.
Ezren attempts and succeeds at recharging Lightning Bolt and places it on the bottom of his deck.
Others encounter their Zombie.
Ezren plays Haste to explore again.
Ezren attmpes and succeeds at recharging Haste.
Ezren encounters a Ghoul
Ezren plays Acid Arrow for his combat check to defeat the Ghoul.
Ezren fails.
Ezren attempts the check to recharge Acid Arrow, succeeds, and recharges it.
Ezren resolves the encounter with the Ghoul by shuffling the Ghoul back into the location deck.
Ezren resets his hand.
Ezren recharges Toxic Cloud to the bottom of his deck, having already succeeded at the recharge check earlier in his turn.
Ezren ends his turn.

Obviously Ezren would be using his power to check the next card in his deck all 3 times be played a spell, but I skipped somethings and just hit the relevant parts.

So is that right? Am I understanding you correctly? If I am, then obviously Seoni automatically succeeds at recharging Toxic Spell earlier in the turn to, so she can recharge it as well.

Let me know whether I'm on track or way off base here. Thanks.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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The "finish one thing before starting another" rule doesn't force Ezren to "pre-recharge" the Toxic Cloud. The recharge power says "instead of discarding it," so it doesn't kick in until he would actually be discarding it. (Similarly, he wouldn't "pre-roll" 1d6s for potential monster encounters.)

Hawkmoon269 wrote:

Ezren encounters his Zomibe, plays Lightning Bolt, defeats the Zombie.

Ezren attempts and succeeds at recharging Lightning Bolt and places it on the bottom of his deck.

Not quite:

Rules wrote:

Attempt the Next Check, If Needed. If another check is required, such as if you played a boon with a check to recharge, or if your bane requires a second check to defeat, resolve it now. Repeat this step until you have resolved all such checks.

Apply Any Effects That Happen After the Encounter, If Needed.
Resolve the Encounter.

So technically, it's:

Ezren encounters his Zombie, plays Lightning Bolt, attempts and succeeds at recharging Lightning Bolt and places it on the bottom of his deck; the Zombie is defeated.

I don't think there's a bit of *functional* difference between that and yours, though.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:

The "finish one thing before starting another" rule doesn't force Ezren to "pre-recharge" the Toxic Cloud. The recharge power says "instead of discarding it," so it doesn't kick in until he would actually be discarding it. (Similarly, he wouldn't "pre-roll" 1d6s for potential monster encounters.)

Hawkmoon269 wrote:

Ezren encounters his Zomibe, plays Lightning Bolt, defeats the Zombie.

Ezren attempts and succeeds at recharging Lightning Bolt and places it on the bottom of his deck.

Not quite:

Rules wrote:

Attempt the Next Check, If Needed. If another check is required, such as if you played a boon with a check to recharge, or if your bane requires a second check to defeat, resolve it now. Repeat this step until you have resolved all such checks.

Apply Any Effects That Happen After the Encounter, If Needed.
Resolve the Encounter.

So technically, it's:

Ezren encounters his Zombie, plays Lightning Bolt, attempts and succeeds at recharging Lightning Bolt and places it on the bottom of his deck; the Zombie is defeated.

I don't think there's a bit of *functional* difference between that and yours, though.

Ok. Then I guess I'm confused by what Chad said. I though I had it.

Again my root question is, if I discard Toxic Cloud after resetting my hand, are powers and cards allowed to be played then to effect its recharge? Like a blessing to help on the recharge roll. So basically I'm back to where I was here.

So really I'm trying to figure out exactly when the "end of your turn" means on a card. Do I discard Toxic Cloud:
-After I'm done exploring but before I reset my hand.
-After I reset my hand, but before I declare my turn ended.
-After I declare my turn ended, but before the next character discards a blessing from the blessing deck?

And then what does that mean for Seoni recharging cards, anyone playing Levitate, Ezren drawing a card if he plays an "at the end of your turn" spell, Amiri wanting to use a card to help succeed at a check to move, or Lem swapping a card?

I know Chad and Mike have said they are looking at it. And that is fine. Its not so pressing that I an unable to function in life. I'm willing to be patient. I just thought Chad was hinting to me that there was something I was missing about when to recharge cards. But if you say they attempt they recharge when they would have discarded it, then I'm back to square one. I await guidance on this, and do so patiently. Thanks.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Hawkmoon269 wrote:

So really I'm trying to figure out exactly when the "end of your turn" means on a card. Do I discard Toxic Cloud:

-After I'm done exploring but before I reset my hand.
-After I reset my hand, but before I declare my turn ended.
-After I declare my turn ended, but before the next character discards a blessing from the blessing deck?

"Reset Your Hand" clearly comes before "End Your Turn"; since you discard the Cloud at the end of your turn, that's after you reset your hand. I'm not altogether certain there's any functional value in the distinction between your second and third options, but since it gets discarded "at the end of your turn," not "after your turn," the second would be more correct.

As for your ability to play cards and use powers at that time, you'll have to wait a bit on that.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
Hawkmoon269 wrote:

So really I'm trying to figure out exactly when the "end of your turn" means on a card. Do I discard Toxic Cloud:

-After I'm done exploring but before I reset my hand.
-After I reset my hand, but before I declare my turn ended.
-After I declare my turn ended, but before the next character discards a blessing from the blessing deck?

"Reset Your Hand" clearly comes before "End Your Turn"; since you discard the Cloud at the end of your turn, that's after you reset your hand. I'm not altogether certain there's any functional value in the distinction between your second and third options, but since it gets discarded "at the end of your turn," not "after your turn," the second would be more correct.

As for your ability to play cards and use powers at that time, you'll have to wait a bit on that.

Ok. Thanks for the quick reply. I do appreciate it. That is what I was assuming, but I got confused back there along the way. And as I said, I can be patient for the ruling about the other things.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Oh. And for what its worth (which is probably very little), I do put forth this friendly suggestion for a possible amendment to the "reset your hand" step in the sequence:

For the rest of the turn, you may only play cards or use powers that say they can be used at the end of the turn or that affect another end of the turn action or effect.

Levitate, and other movement spells, can either be left as is and played "at the end of your turn" or changed to instead remove at the end of your turn add "you may no longer explore on this turn." Left as is, and if my first suggestion or something similar is put in place, that gives Ezren an advantage when using them (but that sort of feels right too).

And, depending on what the intention of the ghoul is, his card could be changed to say "If undefeated, reset your hand and end your turn, you may not play any cards or use any powers at the end of your turn." That would of course punish Seoni with the display spells. (But that does seem kind of neat and makes the Ghoul a bit scary for Seoni. Not that she couldn't succeed on the recharge check most of the time anyway.) Or he could say "If undefeated, reset your hand and end your turn. After resetting your hand you may not move or be moved or be moved or use any powers or cards that would change the cards in your hand." That is a bit long though just to cover Lem, so you could drop the part about changing your hand.

I'm sure you can figure all that out without me, and word it a lot better than that. But I just wanted to throw the suggestion out there. Feel free to completely disregard that if so desired. I have no allusions that I understand this game better than those who created it. Thanks for all you guys do to make this great game even better.


Ugh...Vic, this means that what was mentioned earlier could happen. Seoni could die despite having a card that should go into her deck. That means those "Display" spells are really going to be kicked out of early Seoni decks (up through AP3) simply because she could die if one is in her deck.

Actually, strike that. They'll be out of every Seoni deck of mine because her hand size and max spell size are 6. Surely, that's not the intent of those cards. And yeah, I might keep one in a lot of my decks mainly because she gets a Staff of Minor Healing and Father Zantus so killing her is really hard, but my point still stands. She's easily the squishiest character in the game because of her power AND her being so kick-ass with her attack meaning she's the likeliest to get slaughtered by a bad roll against a bad enemy.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

That might be true as is. But they are looking into all those things. I'm sure that is one of the tricky points Chad mentioned.

For now, I'm personally ending those spells immediately before resetting my hand. (Though I tend to play Seoni with greater caution than most I think.) That lets her draw them back when she's low.


This is nasty... recharging duration cards *after* resetting your hand means that a spellcaster's deck could temporarily be several cards smaller than it's "meant to" be.

My understanding was that duration spells originally (when the game was released) recharged instantly. Later on Paizo added "recharge at the end of your turn" so that people could leave them out as reminders of what was in effect.

To keep everything in line, shouldn't 'end of turn' recharges of long-lasting cards be set to happen *before* resetting your hand?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Right, they could be updated to say "discard this card when you begin resetting your hand or at the end of the turn." Since you can play them on someone else's turn you would have to cover both. Or change the rulebook to say that in the reset your hand step, any displayed spells are discarded. Though that would create a case of the rulebook trumping a card, so I guess that is out.

But there are lots of end of the turn things in the game. And the unseen emerald codex from deck 4 has you displaying spells for some purpose (I am secretly hoping it lets you keep extra spells accessible to your hand, though I have no knowledge to base that on). So I think they are just working to make this still to be issued ruling work with everything.


My hope is that they're going to add a step to the turn order, saying to recharge any remaining displayed/pending cards before you reset your hand.


@h4ppy

Maybe if they make it this way the game will actually be hard enough for you now ;)

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

We're still debating one fine point, but one point that is not under debate is that things that happen at the end of a turn happen *after* you reset your hand.


Vic Wertz wrote:
We're still debating one fine point, but one point that is not under debate is that things that happen at the end of a turn happen *after* you reset your hand.

Not under debate because you all agree to it, or not under debate because you are all against it?


QuantumNinja wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
We're still debating one fine point, but one point that is not under debate is that things that happen at the end of a turn happen *after* you reset your hand.
Not under debate because you all agree to it, or not under debate because you are all against it?

Because they agree to it.


csouth154 wrote:
QuantumNinja wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
We're still debating one fine point, but one point that is not under debate is that things that happen at the end of a turn happen *after* you reset your hand.
Not under debate because you all agree to it, or not under debate because you are all against it?
Because they agree to it.

That's what I figured. If Vic or Mike or Chad could explain their rationale on this, I'd definitely appreciate it. Being able to play cards after you reset your hand is probably the one of the aspect of PACG I've found counter-intuitive, so they must have some good reasoning behind it that is not clear to me.

To elaborate, in pretty much every card game out there, a turn usually consists of either:

A: Draw cards, play them in the current turn
B: Play cards, draw cards to be used in the next turn

PACG is in this weird middle case,

C: Play cards, draw cards (or discard down to hand-size), continue playing cards

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with C, it just runs counter to the norm. I find myself intuitively wanting to play "end of turn" cards before I reset my hand, even though I understand that's not the intent.


QuantumNinja wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
QuantumNinja wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
We're still debating one fine point, but one point that is not under debate is that things that happen at the end of a turn happen *after* you reset your hand.
Not under debate because you all agree to it, or not under debate because you are all against it?
Because they agree to it.

That's what I figured. If Vic or Mike or Chad could explain their rationale on this, I'd definitely appreciate it. Being able to play cards after you reset your hand is probably the one of the aspect of PACG I've found counter-intuitive, so they must have some good reasoning behind it that is not clear to me.

To elaborate, in pretty much every card game out there, a turn usually consists of either:

A: Draw cards, play them in the current turn
B: Play cards, draw cards to be used in the next turn

PACG is in this weird middle case,

C: Play cards, draw cards (or discard down to hand-size), continue playing cards

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with C, it just runs counter to the norm. I find myself intuitively wanting to play "end of turn" cards before I reset my hand, even though I understand that's not the intent.

There are only a select few cards or powers that can be played after resetting. You can't just do whatever you want between resetting and the end of your turn.


csouth154 wrote:
There are only a select few cards or powers that can be played after resetting. You can't just do whatever you want between resetting and the end of your turn.

I understand that. I'm just saying that it's unintuitive to me that those cards/powers can be played after resetting your hand.


Those things activate at the end of the turn. The end of the turn takes place after all the other steps which include resetting your hand. I understand what you're saying about how you *feel* the reset hand phase should be the last thing but that's clearly not how it is in the rules.

To your point that this is the only game like this, I'd say that a lot of card games don't even use the "reset hand" mechanic at all. But if their intent was to have this stuff used before hand reset then they could redo the end of turn/reset phases to be something like

End of Turn Phase -

Apply any effects that happen at end of turn, if needed.

When done, reset your hand.

Then pass to the next player.


Brainwave wrote:

To your point that this is the only game like this, I'd say that a lot of card games don't even use the "reset hand" mechanic at all. But if their intent was to have this stuff used before hand reset then they could redo the end of turn/reset phases to be something like

End of Turn Phase -

Apply any effects that happen at end of turn, if needed.

When done, reset your hand.

Then pass to the next player.

This is kinda what I was getting at. I'm wondering if playing this way would break the game. Would it be drastically different? Would it complicate interactions with any cards? Was there a reason it wasn't done this way?

I'm just trying to understand the philosophy behind the design.

To frame things more generally, virtually every card game out there follows this general template for a player's turn:

-Adjust your hand
-Play cards
-Adjust your hand

"Adjust your hand" could stand for a lot of different things. For example, in Magic the Gathering, you first adjust your hand by drawing a card, then you play cards, then you adjust your hand by discarding down to 7 if necessary. In Dominion, the initial "adjust your hand" step is to do nothing, then you play cards, then you adjust your hand by discarding it and drawing 5 new cards.

PACG breaks this structure and goes with:
-Play cards ("start of turn" cards, cards that grant explores, etc.)
-Adjust your hand
-Play cards ("end of turn" cards)

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

I find it interesting that some people say that having "after the encounter" effects technically happen during the encounter is confusing, yet other people are saying that having "end of turn" effects happen at the actual end of the turn is confusing.

And it's important that you can play cards when end of turn effects happen. End-of-turn effects can deal damage, so you should be able to play cards to reduce that damage.


Vic Wertz wrote:
And it's important that you can play cards when end of turn effects happen. End-of-turn effects can deal damage, so you should be able to play cards to reduce that damage.

We are surprised that there are exceptions allowing us to play cards after resetting our hands and we would expect end-of-turn damage to be cumulative with damage incurred during the same turn (potentially causing us to die on this turn).

The only real issue that I see is that several cards tell you to skip to the reset-your-hand phase instead of an end-of-card-play phase prior to the reset-your-hand phase.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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We've posted a FAQ entry on this topic.


FAQ wrote:
Otherwise, you may play cards or use powers that say they can be used at the end of the turn; you may attempt to recharge spells that are played during this step; and you may play cards or use powers to reduce damage dealt during this step, but you may not play more than one card of each type or activate any one power more than once to reduce damage dealt to any one character by any one source. When you’re done, the turn passes to the player on your left.

What about revealing a Cat or Headgear of Spock-like Intelligence to help a recharge? This section is getting into the list of things you can do as opposed to things that you can't do.

Let's hope that there is never a card summons a monster during this phase (Levitate to the Restless Dead Graveyard where you must summon and encounter an Ancient Skeleton whenever you move there, for example). End of turn seems like it is the same pattern as during an encounter, where you can play cards only in reaction to things that happen.


The FAQ now says that after resetting your hand you may only play cards or use powers that say they can be used at the end of the turn. Additionally cards to reduce damage may be played, if you need to take damage. Are we not allowed to play cards like Guidance or Blessing of Desna to help with recharge checks in this last step of a character's turn?

EDIT: looks like mlvanbie beat me to this one!


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Thanks for the update. So going back to my original questions.

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
1. Are spells like Levitate and Haste supposed to be played before or after resetting your hand? The plan reading would seem to indicate after resetting your hand, but the example of play has Ezren play Levitate before resetting his hand specifically so he can avoid discarding a card.

Answered: These all get played during the "End Your Turn" step of the turn. (The example of play needs updated.)

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
2. If they are to be played after resetting your hand, can Ezren use his power to draw the next card in his deck if it is a spell? His power isn't clearly an end of the turn power. Mike said above that such a thing would be effecting an end of the turn card, so it would reason it should be allowed.

The FAQ, at first blush, seems to say no given Ezren's power doesn't say he can use it at the end of the turn. Though I'm thinking the Golden Rule means that since Ezren can play a spell here if it says it can be played at the end of his turn, that Ezren's power supersedes this and he does get to draw.

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
3. Do you discard spells like Glibness, Strength, Speed, Toxic Cloud and Incendiary Cloud (and therefore attempt to recharge them) before or after resetting your hand? If after, than can Seoni use her power to recharge them? This is what Mike particularly said he thought was ok because her power was affecting an end of the turn effect. (This would also Seoni won't get to draw these same spells when she has a low deck since she would have drawn before discarding them.)

Answered(?):I'm assuming this is in the "apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn" part. So you discard at the end of your turn and you can attempt to recharge them. (Bit of interpretation there.)

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
4. Assuming end of your turn power happen after resetting your hand, can Amiri play a card to help her succeed at the check needed to use her power to move from a location with a rule prohibiting free movement?

The FAQ seems to prohibit this. Amiri would have to succeed on her own skills, without aid of any cards in her hand.

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
5. What exactly is the Ghoul's punishment for failing to defeat him? Is it just that you can't explore again or are there supposed to be other limits too, like not being able to play end of your turn powers/cards? In other words, can Amiri move to another location at the end of her turn after loosing to the Ghoul or can Virtuoso Lem swap a card?

Answered: No, they can not use their powers. Makes sense.

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
6. If it is the greater punishment, and if question 3 is that you discard them after resetting your hand, and if Seoni can normally recharge them, then what if Seoni had played Toxic Cloud earlier in her turn when she encountered a skeleton horde, then encountered the Ghoul on an additional exploration, cast Force Missle to attempt the check to defeat him and failed. She can recharge Force Missile due to the "finish one thing before you start another" rule, but that doesn't seem to apply to Toxic Cloud which is already in play. So could she recharge Toxic Cloud via her power? And if it were Ezren in the same situation instead of Seoni, could Ezren attempt the check to recharge Toxic Cloud?

The FAQ by saying "First apply any effects..." (assuming I interpreted that right above) seems to indicates they can still attempt to recharge their "display" spells and that Seoni can use her power.

So I'm just a bit unsure on the one about Ezren, but I think I've got the others answered. If I've got any of that wrong please let me know. And if you could clarify Ezren for me I'd appreciate it. I'm not looking to subvert or find a hole in any rules for a supposed "advantage". I just like playing movement spells with Ezren.

And thanks for taking the time to clear all this up.

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