When exactly do "At the end of your turn" powers occur?


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion

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Mike Selinker wrote:
I think it's pretty clear that Harsk's Divine skill is a permanent thing that cannot be removed, but we'll look at it.

Maybe he has a single-use power that adds a skill, and skills can't be removed?

Nasty villain power: Amnesia, all of your derived skills are lost. No more bonuses, spells will be banished if cast....


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Mike Selinker wrote:
Every power. Don't get Ghouled.

By the way, I've been meaning to post that "Don't get Ghouled" is already one of my favorite phrases ever posted on these forums. I'm thinking of getting a t-shirt made that says that. I'll allow Paizo time to copyright the phrase first though. I'm sure it would be a hot seller.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Ok. So this post over at BGG raised some questions for me.

Here is what was settled on for Reset Your Hand.

Rulebook v3 p9 wrote:
Reset Your Hand: First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn; if a power allows or directs you to not reset your hand, you must still apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. You may play cards and use powers unless a power directed you to reset your hand and end your turn. After resolving these effects, you may no longer play cards or use powers for the rest of the turn.

Here are the three things I'm thinking about.

1. When it says "you may play cards and use powers" do those cards and powers have to relate to "effects that happen at the end of the turn"? I'm thinking yes, since this paragraph opens and closes with revolving these end of turn effects, so the playing of cards and using of powers is meant to be within that context.

2. Is there no limit on how many different end of turn effects you can use? My guess here is there is no limit. That would mean Amiri could technically move to every location, as could someone with lots of Levitates. Of course, that behavior probably becomes irrelevant if my gut feeling about question 1 is correct. Because if I'm right on 1, then moving more than once doesn't matter because you can't do anything when you move there, and all the locations that have effects related to ending your turn there obviously cant' stack because you can only end your turn at one location.

3. Tangentially related to #1, one way or another can other characters use powers and play cards too? I'd assume that if the "reset your hand" rules are meant to limit cards and powers to things that relate to "end of the turn effects" other players would be limited by that too. But even if that is true, if Amiri wanted to leave the Treacherous Cave and Sajan was there too, could he play a Potion of Fortitude to allow her to succeed at the check? And if other characters can user powers and play cards, I'm assuming they aren't limited by "getting Ghouled". So if Amiri "got Ghouled" could Ezren still play Haste to move her somewhere else. I'm thinking they can use powers and cards, as long as they relate to end of the turn effects. And I'm thinking only the character that looses to the Ghoul is Ghouled. The wording on Haste implies that it has to be ok for other characters to play cards during this step (so long as they relate to "end of the turn" effects is my thinking).

I'm open to being wrong here. (In fact, with Amiri, Ezren, and Drunken Master Sajan in the same group, it would be kind of cool to have Amiri drag those two around dolling out Potions of Healing and Augury).

EDIT: I added in number 3 after thinking about it some more.


I assumed that if I was at the Turtleback Ferry I could use the end of turn move to take me to Shimmerglens where I would not need to reset my hand.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I would think so, because end of turn effects happen before getting back to your hand size, which is what shimmerglens is all about.


Ouch. This is giving me a headache just reading about it. I think my group and i will just try to apply some simple and logical resolutions to settle the matter if we encounter them.

I think it might be better that when paizo writes the next round of powers and abilities , they think of PACG in terms of being a computer game where powers and abilities have a fixed timing that they can be used.


Hawkmooon, you raise some interesting points above.

On the one hand, you have these two rules:

v3 rulebook, pg 9 wrote:
If a card in your hand does not specify when it can be played, you can generally play it at any time, with the exception that during an encounter you may only perform specific actions at specific times.
v3 rulebook, pg 9 wrote:
Reset Your Hand: First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn; if a power allows or directs you to not reset your hand, you must still apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. You may play cards and use powers unless a power directed you to reset your hand and end your turn. After resolving these effects, you may no longer play cards or use powers for the rest of the turn.

Together, the two parts highlighted in bold could be interpreted to mean that you could play a spell like Cure at the start of the Reset Your Hand step.

The other interpretation, which what I think both you and I believe, is that you cannot play a spell like Cure at the start of the Reset Your Hand step. Saying "You can ONLY use end of turn powers/cards during this step" would be too strong, because that would preclude you from doing something like play Guidance/Aid/Seoni's power for a recharge check on a displayed card, which I think is ok to do. I think it's more like "You can only use end of turn powers/cards at this point, UNLESS a situation specifically arises where it would be appropriate to use another power/card." It's still a little loose, and I'm not sure how to phrase it better, but I think that's the intent.

The question, really, is how much freedom is granted by this sentence?

"You may play cards and use powers unless a power directed you to reset your hand and end your turn."

How much restriction in what you can play is introduced by this phrase?

...you can generally play it at any time...

Does "generally" here mean in all circumstances except for during an encounter (where you may only perform specific actions at specific times)?


The cards and powers it is telling you you can play are those that say they are played at the end of the turn or directly affect any checks made during this time. I think the designers have implied many times that statements in the rules should be taken in context with the heading they fall under.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Yeah. I think you and I are seeing this the same way. As I've thought about it more, I think it is more obvious than I first thought. Here is the whole of that step:

Rulebook v3 p Bold Emphasis Mine wrote:

Reset Your Hand: First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn; if a power allows or directs you to not reset your hand, you must still apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. You may play cards and use powers unless a power directed you to reset your hand and end your turn. After resolving these effects, you may no longer play cards or use powers for the rest of the turn.

Next, you may discard any number of cards. Then, if you have more cards in your hand than your hand size specifies, you must discard until the number of cards in your hand matches your hand size. Finally, if you have fewer cards than your hand size, you must draw cards until the number of cards in your hand matches your hand size.

To me, that means there are two parts to resetting your hand. (1) Applying any effects that happen at the end of the turn. (2) Getting to your hand size. The part about playing cards and using powers occurs in the context of applying those effects. So I think the implication is decently obvious that there is understood to be a limitation on what powers and cards can be activated. And that implication is that they have to have some relation to applying effects that happen at the end of the turn.

It maybe would be slightly more clear if it said "While applying these effects you may play cards and use powers as you apply them unless a power directed you to reset your hand and end your turn." Or something like that. There are better writers than me at work on this game.

But I think the implication is really there already.

Sometimes I think I over think things, but then I wonder if I'm just over thinking that thought.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

And then there is this also:

Rulebook v3 p22 wrote:
Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else. You do many things in a specific order, and you need to finish doing each thing before you do the next thing.

This step has a specific order. You'd have to finish applying end of the turn effects before you moved on to start something else. But before you have opportunity to have an "open" window of card play, get to the "next" step and can no longer use powers.

So, I'm Kyra and I've got a Cure and I also picked up a Leviatate somehow. I want to move to Amiri's location and play Cure on her. Here is how this plays out:

1. First apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. Ok, so Levitate is one of those effects. I play Levitate (and I have to Banish it). Now I'm at Amiri's location. But I have to finish one thing before I start another, so let me finish this paragraph in the rulebook. Oh crap. It says "After resolving these effects, you may no longer play cards or use powers for the rest of the turn." Well I've got no more end of the turn effects to apply and was never presented with an opportunity to play Cure. Oh well. Guess I'll have to wait until the next turn starts.

2. Nothing to do now but get back to my hand size.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Here is a very long and finalize form of my thoughts on this.

Here are the relevant rules:

Rulebook v3 p9 with my emphasis wrote:

Reset Your Hand: First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn; if a power allows or directs you to not reset your hand, you must still apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. You may play cards and use powers unless a power directed you to reset your hand and end your turn. After resolving these effects, you may no longer play cards or use powers for the rest of the turn.

Next, you may discard any number of cards. Then, if you have more cards in your hand than your hand size specifies, you must discard until the number of cards in your hand matches your hand size. Finally, if you have fewer cards than your hand size, you must draw cards until the number of cards in your hand matches your hand size.

Rulebook v3 p22 wrote:
Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else. You do many things in a specific order, and you need to finish doing each thing before you do the next thing. You move before you explore, not after. If a spell used in a check can be recharged, finish the first check before you begin your check to recharge it. If a villain requires two sequential combat checks, finish the first before starting the second. Don’t start a new process until you’ve finished the last one. (That said, if the game doesn’t specify an order for things, you decide the order.)

So, in this part of your turn, there is a clear specific order specified that involves 2 things. (1) Apply effects that happen at the end of the turn. (2) Get back to your hand size. The allowance on playing cards and using powers is in step 1. That step ends with the words "After resolving these effects, you may no longer play cards or use powers for the rest of the turn."

So basically, you never have an opportunity to play Cure or Scrying or anything else that doesn't directly relate to applying an "End of the Turn Effect" because as soon as you finish applying those effects and before you can start what comes next (hypothetically playing Cure or Scrying), you can't play cards or use power any more.

So if Amiri want's to move from the Treacherous Caves at the end of her turn, she can use a Portion of Fortitude to succeed at the required check, because she is applying an "End of the Turn Effect" and is allowed to play cards when doing so. But once she is done moving, she if finished applying "End of the Turn Effects" so she can't play a Potion of Healing on someone at the location she ends her turn at.

Amiri is basically saying "I want to apply the power that allows me to move at the end of my turn. That is an end of the turn effect. I'll start applying it now. Oh look, I'm at the Treacherous Cave. I have to succeed at this Constitution or Fortitude check. We'll I've go this potion of Fortitude to let me succeed. I'll play it, and that is ok because I'm still allowed to play cards. Ok, so I'll go to the Mountain Peak. And now I'm done applying my end of the turn effect. Can I play this Potion of Healing? Oh, no I can't because once I finished applying those effect I can't play card or use powers. Oh well."

I'd be fine with someone with multiple Levitate spells or other movement spells moving around multiple times, but the effectiveness of doing such an action would be almost non-existent, other than letting you perhaps recharge those cards if you were over your hand size. And even that might be a bit of a stretch, but I couldn't argue against it.

Essentially, an "any time" window never opens up after you start Resetting Your Hand. So the powers you use and the cards you play have to be for the specific purpose of applying "End of the Turn Effects". Nothing else is allowed before you are prohibited from playing cards and using powers for the rest of the turn.

That is just my take on it. I think it makes sense, but I'm not an official authoritative voice. Play however you deem to be best following the rules. Or house-rule it if you want.

Sorry if this wasted anyone's time. You'll be happy to know I'm taking a brief work/vacation trip in a few days and for a few days will be around less to raise questions that really don't need answers.

Oh, and great job to Mike and Vic and Chad and anyone else that updated the rulebook. It did actually answer this question. I just didn't see it at first.


Yep, I think we're all on the same page here. But to play Devil's Advocate for a second, I could argue the following:

Suppose I'm Kyra, I've got Cure and Levitate in my hand, and I also have a Strength spell in front of me that I displayed earlier in the turn.

It's the end of my turn. I have to recharge the Strength spell as an end-of-turn effect, and I may also play Levitate as an end-of-turn effect. I can choose the order in which to do those because of this rule:

pg 22 wrote:
Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else... (That said, if the game doesn’t specify an order for things, you decide the order.)

Scenario A) I choose to Levitate to a new location first. I'm not done yet resolving end-of-turn effects, so I can still play cards, so I therefore cast Cure on another character at my new location. Then I choose to do the recharge check on Strength.

I think we'd agree this is incorrect because you're "squeezing in" a non-end of turn effect (Cure) in there, but it's difficult for me to point to a precise statement in the rulebook that prevents this. What makes this hard is if you consider the following similar scenario:

Scenario B) Same initial setup as above, but I also have a Guidance in my hand. I choose to do the recharge check on Strength first. When I attempt the check, I choose to play Guidance to boost the recharge check. After that check, I have to do the recharge check on Guidance. After this check, I play Levitate as the final "end of turn" effect. There's no more end of turn effects to resolve, so I can't play any more cards (i.e. no Cure).

In this case, I "squeezed in" Guidance (another non-end-of-turn effect) between two end-of-turn effects: recharging Strength and casting Levitate. The main difference between Scenario A and Scenario B is that Cure is an "outside-of-a-check spell" whereas Guidance is a "during-a-check" spell.

So to recap... (end-of-turn effects designated with a (*) next to them)

Scenario A: Levitate(*) -> Cure -> Recharge Strength(*)

Scenario B: Recharge Strength(*) -> Guidance -> Recharge Guidance -> Levitate(*)

Notice that both Scenarios have non-end-of-turn effects sandwiched between end-of-turn effects. Scenario A feels "wrong" to me, Scenario B feels "right", but I can't articulate very clearly why this is so without having to wave my hands and use unofficial phrases like "an outside-of-a-check spell".


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Scenario A involved something that wasn't related to applying end of the turn effects. You have to first apply those before you do anything else. So you couldn't play Cure between Levitate and the check to recharge Strength because you haven't finished the first thing you are supposed to do, which is apply any end of the turn effects.

And of course once you do finish applying those effects, you can no longer play cards or use powers.

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