When exactly do "At the end of your turn" powers occur?


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@Hawkmoon269

I don't have the card in fron of me but if Ezren can't use his power because it does not say he can use it at the end of the turn, why would Seoni be able to use her power to recharge cards? Lini wouldn't be able to reveal an animal ally either for helping with a recharge check, right?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Here is what I'm thinking.

FAQ Update wrote:
End Your Turn: First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. If a power told you to reset your hand and end your turn, you may not play any cards or use any character powers during this step. Otherwise, you may play cards or use powers that say they can be used at the end of the turn; you may attempt to recharge spells that are played during this step; and you may play cards or use powers to reduce damage dealt during this step, but you may not play more than one card of each type or activate any one power more than once to reduce damage dealt to any one character by any one source. When you’re done, the turn passes to the player on your left.

The first part of this step is "First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn." One of those effects is that spells like Strength say to discard them at the end of your turn. So you discard Strength. And then Strength says you can attempt to recharge it. So you attempt to recharge it. Seoni gets to automatically succeed at that. That comes before the "you may play cards or use powers that say they can be used at the end of the turn". So I'm reading the "first" as implying that the rule restricting cards and powers only goes into effect after completing that portion of the step. So I would think Lini could reveal an animal ally to add 1d4 to her check to recharge Strength.

So then the restriction goes into effect. Any spells played after that you may attempt to recharge. And Seoni's power is she succeeds at that attempt. So I think Seoni's power applies.

As for Ezren and Lini, I'm not so sure about them. Though I'm leaning more towards thinking they can use their powers as well in relation to a spell played during this step due to the Golden Rule.

But that is all sort of me stewing over this and trying to wrap my head around it. I won't be shocked if I'm wrong. I think I've been wrong in this thread alone about 6 or 7 times. It could be that discarding Strength at the end of your turn is "playing" strength and so it falls instead under the "you may attempt to recharge spells that are played during this step," but it doesn't feel "played" to me.


Hmm. I read two steps that occur after resetting your hand. First, apply any end of turn effects (all the detail after that is setting limitations of those effects); second, pass the turn to the character on your left.

The golden rule doesn't hold up here because this step is saying you cannot do this and cannot do that. I believe the golden rule is valid when cards/rules are in conflict with what you can do. The rulebook cannot be overruled on what you cannot do (i.e. attempt to close a location after defeating a summoned henchmen that says you can). If cards are in conflict durring this step you can still apply the golden rule hierarchy.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

You might be right about the two parts. There isn't a clear "second" in the text. (Unless I'm glossing over it. It is late where I am.)

But the Golden Rule's first part applies to any conflict between rulebook and card. And its third part about "cannot trumps can" only applies to cards. Not the rulebook.

Golden Rule wrote:
If a card and this rulebook are ever in conflict, the card should be considered correct. If cards conflict with one another, then Adventure Path cards overrule adventures, adventures overrule scenarios, scenarios overrule locations, locations overrule characters, and characters overrule other card types. Despite this hierarchy, if one card tells that you cannot do something and another card tells you that you can, comply with the card that tells you that you cannot.


Okay, I've had time to reference the rulebook and I see they've change the wording on some things. My example above with the summoned henchmen is irrelevant.

That said, I'm still not so sure you can use any of your powers. At the end of the book under "things to keep in mind as you play the game" there is a section that says, "Cards Don't Do What They Don't Say. Each card's powers reference specific situations, and if you're not in those situations, you can't play it."

I think this is a specific situation, right? Unless the powers say they can be used at the end of the turn, you can't use them.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Maybe you can't. I don't know. Hopefully some one with authority can weigh in and clarify this. To summarize if they do:

(1) When exactly during the "End Your Turn" step do you attempt to recharge a spell that was displayed earlier in your turn?

(2) If Ezren plays an end of the turn spell like Levitate, can he use his power to draw the next card in his deck if it is a spell?

(3) If Lini plays an end of the turn spell like Levitate, can she reveal an animal ally to add 1d4 to the check to recharge it?

(4) If Seoni plays an end of the turn spell like Levitate, can she use her power to automatically succeed at the check to recharge it?

(5) Can any of them use a Cat ally to help with the check to recharge Levitate?

(6) Was any of this right?


I'm against this restriction on powers that can be used in response to things happening at the end of a turn...

Take Ezren for example. I don't have the cards to hand, but lets say Levitate is an Arcane spell that plays 'at the end of turn'. And Ezren's power lets him draw a card when he plays a spell. (I think that's more or less right).

Levitate is a legitimate card to play at the end of a turn, it says so explicitly. Now, to me, any card/power that triggers off that event (e.g. Ezren drawing a new card) should be allowed.

You shouldn't be able to just fire off any generic powers at the end of a turn, but (IMHO) you *should* be allowed to use any reactive powers, regardless of any 'end of turn' timing on that power, if they are reacting to something (anything) that happened at the end of a turn.


Vic Wertz wrote:

I find it interesting that some people say that having "after the encounter" effects technically happen during the encounter is confusing, yet other people are saying that having "end of turn" effects happen at the actual end of the turn is confusing.

For me, the confusion is for different reasons in either case.

With "after the encounter", it's a matter of logical inconsistency. Calling it "after the encounter" when it actually happens during an encounter is the issue for me there.

With "end of turn", it's not a matter of logic, but a matter of intuitiveness developed from playing numerous different card games. Having an opportunity to play cards before you reset your hand and an opportunity to play certain cards after you reset your hand is just something I personally find awkward because it's so against the "norm".

There's also a thematic reason. I've always thought of resetting your hand as thematically representing your character "resting". You normally expend cards and take damage during your turn, so your character "rests" to recuperate the losses by drawing up to your hand size. When you have more cards than your hand size, your character is overburdened, so your character needs to rest and decide how to unburden by discarding down. Maybe I'm off base with this, but that's the image I've always had in my mind. That's why resetting your hand seems to me like a natural point to completely end your turn. "Do stuff, rest, go to next player's turn" makes much more intuitive sense to me than "Do stuff, rest, continue doing stuff, go to next player's turn".

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

What are your assumptions if we change "End Your Turn" to the following:

First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. If a power told you to reset your hand and end your turn, you may not play any cards or use any character powers during this step. Otherwise, you may play cards or use powers that say they can be used at the end of the turn, or modify any end-of turn-effects or cards or powers that modify such effects. When you’re done, the turn passes to the player on your left.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

QuantumNinja,

Solving your problem would mean creating an entirely new step in the turn sequence just to trigger end-of-turn powers, which is a very visible and sweeping change to clear up a few small timing issues that most players won't ever realize exist. We think there are better ways to deal with them.


Vic Wertz wrote:

What are your assumptions if we change "End Your Turn" to the following:

First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. If a power told you to reset your hand and end your turn, you may not play any cards or use any character powers during this step. Otherwise, you may play cards or use powers that say they can be used at the end of the turn, or modify any end-of turn-effects or cards or powers that modify such effects. When you’re done, the turn passes to the player on your left.

Honestly, I think it makes perfect sense and clears everything up....if you've been following this thread. It would make a lot of first-time players' heads explode.

But what can ya do? ;)


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:

What are your assumptions if we change "End Your Turn" to the following:

First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. If a power told you to reset your hand and end your turn, you may not play any cards or use any character powers during this step. Otherwise, you may play cards or use powers that say they can be used at the end of the turn, or modify any end-of turn-effects or cards or powers that modify such effects. When you’re done, the turn passes to the player on your left.

That would totally seem to solve everything for me. That would mean Ezren can draw a card, Seoni can recharge a spell, Lini can use an ally to add to her check to recharge a spell. Amiri can play a card to succeed at the check for a movement restriction. Anyone can use the Cat after they cast Levitate.

The only "question" I'd have left would be if Seoni or Lini were hit by the Ghoul could they use their powers to automatically succeed at recharging (in Seoni's case) or to add to (in Lini's case) the recharge check for an already displayed spell? The answer seems to be "No." Seoni could attempt the recharge check with her Aracne, Lini could attempt it with her Wisdom and they'd both have to take what they get. But I actually like that. It makes things like the Ghoul more dangerous for them.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
csouth154 wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:

What are your assumptions if we change "End Your Turn" to the following:

First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. If a power told you to reset your hand and end your turn, you may not play any cards or use any character powers during this step. Otherwise, you may play cards or use powers that say they can be used at the end of the turn, or modify any end-of turn-effects or cards or powers that modify such effects. When you’re done, the turn passes to the player on your left.

Honestly, I think it makes perfect sense and clears everything up....if you've been following this thread. It would make a lot of first-time players' heads explode.

But what can ya do? ;)

The wording might be more clear like this:

First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. If a power told you to reset your hand and end your turn, you may not play any cards or use any character powers during this step. Otherwise, you may play cards or use powers that say they can be used at the end of the turn, or that modify any end-of turn-effects, or that relate to cards played or powers used during this step. When you’re done, the turn passes to the player on your left.

But this is where Vic & Co. excel. So I'll go with whatever you come up with.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Here Vic. In honor of all you do for us and put up with from us. Sorry the quality is crude. I have no idea how to make something like this for real.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3bb1w7lyh7hh1be/Vic%20Wertz%20Ally.pdf

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

So we're still having issues, even with the last revision. How about this:

---

On page 9 of the rulebook, replace "Reset Your Hand" with the following:

"If a power directed you to reset your hand and end your turn, you may not play cards or use powers during this step.

"First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. After resolving these effects, you may no longer play cards or use powers for the rest of the turn. Next, you may discard any number of cards. Then, if you have more cards in your hand than your hand size specifies, you must discard until the number of cards in your hand matches your hand size. Finally, if you have fewer cards than your hand size, you must draw cards until the number of cards in your hand matches your hand size."

"End Your Turn" remains as it is: "When you’re done, the turn passes to the player on your left."

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Hawkmoon269 wrote:

Here Vic. In honor of all you do for us and put up with from us. Sorry the quality is crude. I have no idea how to make something like this for real.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3bb1w7lyh7hh1be/Vic%20Wertz%20Ally.pdf

Cute! Now I want to add "You may not complain about the rules or cards" directly to the rulebook!

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Vic Wertz wrote:

QuantumNinja,

Solving your problem would mean creating an entirely new step in the turn sequence just to trigger end-of-turn powers, which is a very visible and sweeping change to clear up a few small timing issues that most players won't ever realize exist. We think there are better ways to deal with them.

Also, if that step happens before reset your hand (which is kind of your point), then cards like the Ghoul cause you to skip it entirely, and that makes very bad things happen.

Believe me, we considered it at length. Several times.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:

So we're still having issues, even with the last revision. How about this:

---

On page 9 of the rulebook, replace "Reset Your Hand" with the following:

"If a power directed you to reset your hand and end your turn, you may not play cards or use powers during this step.

"First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. After resolving these effects, you may no longer play cards or use powers for the rest of the turn. Next, you may discard any number of cards. Then, if you have more cards in your hand than your hand size specifies, you must discard until the number of cards in your hand matches your hand size. Finally, if you have fewer cards than your hand size, you must draw cards until the number of cards in your hand matches your hand size."

"End Your Turn" remains as it is: "When you’re done, the turn passes to the player on your left."

Ok. So here you are moving the "end of your turn" effects to immediately prior to getting back to your hand size. Does "effects" cover playing a card, using a power, and powers from locations/scenarios? It seems to me like it does.

If so, this lets everyone play their end-of-turn cards and powers before getting back to their hand size, so that they start the next turn at full hand size. I like that idea. And of course the next sentence makes clear everyone can use their powers that relate to end of the turn effects, because they haven't been restricted yet when apply those effects.

The only person this might effect negatively is Lem. If he plays all his cards he can't use his swapping power. But that is something he can at least plan for. Seoni and Lini are punished (as I mentioned above) but I'm ok with that (which I also mentioned).

I'm fine with this. I like that its shorter and clearer.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

One thing to think about: Shimmerglens. What will this mean for characters that no longer have to reset their hands at that location? Should it just be issued an errata to the effect of "Characters at this location do not have to discard cards to be at their hand size when resetting their hand."

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

This does mess with Shimmerglens. I think that might be a fair price to pay.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I do too. And if you do adjust shimmerglens, it should also specify you don't have to draw either. Both are equally useful.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

I think "reset your hand" is the act of drawing the new cards, even though the step is called that. We could say, "Then reset your hand: If you have more cards…"

The actual change, if we have one, might be "You may choose not to draw up or discard down to your hand size when resetting your hand."


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Sounds reasonable.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

We went with this.


New update to the FAQ looks clean, clear, and thematically sound.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Looks good. Thanks for figuring all this out.


I like it!


Vic Wertz wrote:
We went with this.

Beautiful! I think what you guys ended up with looks great! Thanks guys for taking the time to look into this!


Hawkmoon269 wrote:

Here Vic. In honor of all you do for us and put up with from us. Sorry the quality is crude. I have no idea how to make something like this for real.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3bb1w7lyh7hh1be/Vic%20Wertz%20Ally.pdf

This needs a check to acquire. How about 'Knowledge Arcane 10'?

I like the update. It is easy to play and doesn't surprise people.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
mlvanbie wrote:
Hawkmoon269 wrote:

Here Vic. In honor of all you do for us and put up with from us. Sorry the quality is crude. I have no idea how to make something like this for real.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3bb1w7lyh7hh1be/Vic%20Wertz%20Ally.pdf

This needs a check to acquire. How about 'Knowledge Arcane 10'?

I like the update. It is easy to play and doesn't surprise people.

I think the check to acquire is "Just ask nicely OR Knowledge Arcane 10".

I've also got an Item named FAQ that says: "When you encounter any card, you may place this card next to the location deck and place the encountered card on top of it. While the encountered card is on top of this card you may go check the FAQ. Then return the encountered card to the deck and bury this card."

And Blessing of Selinker lets you add 2 dice to any check that involved someone citing the Golden Rule.

Seriously though, I just want to say that I know this all started with my question and it looks like you guys put a lot of time and effort into not just making the rules work but making them clear and understandable too. So thanks for all that.

As I thought about it more I like where this ended up more than any other proposal. I like that anyone can play the movement spells and then "reset their hand" back to their hand size. At lot of people don't see the movement spells as useful (not I) and I think having them cost you a card for the rest of the round would have made everyone not keep them. So this is a great way to encourage people to try them out still.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Hawkmoon269 wrote:

I think the check to acquire is "Just ask nicely OR Knowledge Arcane 10".

"Just ask nicely" is is probably an easy Charisma/Diplomacy check.

And Knowledge Arcane 10 is kind of a weird combination, I would expect Intelligence/Knowledge or Intelligence/Arcane to be the choice of checks.

Pointless quibbling aside, I think this ruling is clean and makes sense. Thanks for to taking the time to do it right. And Hawkmoon, nicely done with the card. It gave me a chuckle. :)

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

Love the Vic card.

Blessing of Selinker had better involve a martini.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Mike Selinker wrote:

Love the Vic card.

Blessing of Selinker had better involve a martini.

That is in the Recharge box:

"If you are drinking a martini you may recharge this card instead of discarding it. If you are not, go get one right now."


Hawkmoon269 wrote:

That is in the Recharge box:

"If you are drinking a martini you may recharge this card instead of discarding it. If you are not, go get one right now."

When I come back with a martini, do I still get to recharge the card, or have I lost the opportunity at that point? FAQ! QUICK!


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
QuantumNinja wrote:
Hawkmoon269 wrote:

That is in the Recharge box:

"If you are drinking a martini you may recharge this card instead of discarding it. If you are not, go get one right now."
When I come back with a martini, do I still get to recharge the card, or have I lost the opportunity at that point? FAQ! QUICK!

I thinking the "drinking" implies you had to be drinking it when you played it. Not only don't cards have memories, they don't see the future either.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

I would like a rechargeable martini.


Awesome work guys - and loving the flavor text around some of the most recent FAQ entries :)


Ok...so...just to be sure I have this right:

Seems that applying end of turn effects and actions is now a part of the "Reset your hand" phase.

Does this mean that, if you skip this phase for any reason (ex: Shimmerglens), you DON'T apply end of turn effects or perform end of turn actions?

OR do you do everything involved in the reset phase EXCEPT for having to discard and/or draw to your hand size?

Edit: DERP! Just did some double-checking a bit higher in the thread. Seems that my second option is the correct one....right?

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

Shimmerglens is probably going to need some cleanup. Basically, we don't ever want you to completely skip the reset step.


Question: Can you attempt checks to recharge displayed cards if a card forces you to reset your hand and end your turn?

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

csouth154 wrote:
Question: Can you attempt checks to recharge displayed cards if a card forces you to reset your hand and end your turn?

You can always attempt a check to recharge the displayed card, since that's part of playing the card. The displayed card is about to be discarded, and the rules on recharging say you get a chance to recharge it if you have the appropriate skill.

What you can't do is use powers or play cards on that recharge check. So if this question is really "Can Seoni automatically recharge a spell if a Ghoul damaged her?" then no, I would say she can't. Vic may have a more definitive ruling, but that's my take.

Mike


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Mike Selinker wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
Question: Can you attempt checks to recharge displayed cards if a card forces you to reset your hand and end your turn?

You can always attempt a check to recharge the displayed card, since that's part of playing the card. The displayed card is about to be discarded, and the rules on recharging say you get a chance to recharge it if you have the appropriate skill.

What you can't do is use powers or play cards on that recharge check. So if this question is really "Can Seoni automatically recharge a spell if a Ghoul damaged her?" then no, I would say she can't. Vic may have a more definitive ruling, but that's my take.

Mike

That's my take too (not that my opinion is anywhere near as valuable as Mike's). It was one of the things I was specifically asking about back at the beginning of this thread. And I highlighted it as one of my interpretations when Vic asked our opinions about that kind of language. He didn't confirm what I said, but he also didn't say it was wrong. So I'm assuming it was right.

To me, the spell is played when it was displayed. Discarding/recharging isn't playing it because you don't activate any of its powers. But you are instructed to discard at at the "end of the turn" which makes it an "end of the turn effect" which you must still do even when a card's power directs you to reset your hand.


Mike Selinker wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
Question: Can you attempt checks to recharge displayed cards if a card forces you to reset your hand and end your turn?

You can always attempt a check to recharge the displayed card, since that's part of playing the card. The displayed card is about to be discarded, and the rules on recharging say you get a chance to recharge it if you have the appropriate skill.

What you can't do is use powers or play cards on that recharge check. So if this question is really "Can Seoni automatically recharge a spell if a Ghoul damaged her?" then no, I would say she can't. Vic may have a more definitive ruling, but that's my take.

Mike

Thanks for the clarification!


OK, I've got another, related question:

I thought at first that Seoni's auto-recharge power was not usable when forced to reset and end your turn because it was a "you may..." skill. After looking at it again, I see that it does not say "you may...".

So my question is: Do you just ignore EVERY power on your character card in this situation? You cannot use them whether they say "you may" or not?

If that's the case, it would mean that Ezren's bonus to recharge checks would not be applicable, either, correct?

If so, I guess I just wonder what the thinking is behind allowing the check at all. Not that you need to explain yourselves, at all. You guys are doing a terrific job. I've never seen designers so involved with the fan base.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I would think it means every power. So Ezren can't get his bonus.

The only one that might be open for debate would be Harsk's power on both his roles: "You gain the skill Divine: Wisdom + 1". That one I would debate because I think the power permanently gives him that skill the moment he takes it. In the "Attempting a Check" sequence you decide what skill you are using before you play any powers. So for that power to work anyway it has to be a permanent skill.

I think the reason is this was done is that it doesn't make sense for a bane that "freezes" you to not also punish your ability to do things at the end of the turn. But to not allow the check at all would be way to harsh. And just because your "powers" are frozen doesn't mean you cards shouldn't recharge.

I really like the way this turned out.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

Every power. Don't get Ghouled.


Hawkmoon269 wrote:

I think the reason is this was done is that it doesn't make sense for a bane that "freezes" you to not also punish your ability to do things at the end of the turn. But to not allow the check at all would be way to harsh. And just because your "powers" are frozen doesn't mean you cards shouldn't recharge.

I really like the way this turned out.

I agree that your ability to do things at the end of your turn should be severely punished in these instances. Indeed, I believe it should be eliminated entirely, which is why I don't think recharging should be allowed at all. I honestly don't think it would be all that harsh if it weren't. I'll probably house rule it that way.


Mike Selinker wrote:
Every power. Don't get Ghouled.

OK. Hold on a second. Taken at face value, your statement must mean that Harsk WOULD lose his Divine skill. If that's the case, and since recharging is dependent on skills, why is recharging allowed in this situation at all? Why wouldn't you lose access to ALL of your skills, and thus be unable to recharge anything? I mean really...you're paralyzed. Why should you have any skills at all beyond "be a sack of meat"?

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

I think it's pretty clear that Harsk's Divine skill is a permanent thing that cannot be removed, but we'll look at it.


Mike Selinker wrote:
I think it's pretty clear that Harsk's Divine skill is a permanent thing that cannot be removed, but we'll look at it.

I mean, I can see why you'd thinkn it's clear. The phrasing "you gain the skill..." seperates it from being a "power" that you can lose access to. The fact that it's in the powers section may throw people, though, when you say "you lose all powers". I'm not sure how else you'd word it, though. Your job isn't easy.

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