The "Bat Cave" - hideout thread


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Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

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With the new blog out on PoI's, I started this thread to get ideas flowing for my "Bat Cave". We can assume that hide-outs are a PoI much like a watch tower or inn. They aren't resource producers and are more permanant than a mine etc.

So let's start the process of building my "Bat Cave". First thing is to clear this hex of its monsters and claim it. Once that is done, the first group of questions come up. With my "Bat Cave" active, will monsters respawn? This question is important due to the fact that the absence of monsters would be a give away that the PoI has been claimed. If it has been claimed, people are going to be curious what's there, probably leading to discovery. Monster would provide some cover as to the "Bat Cave" being in that area. If so, how many should there be? This could be considered an upgrade possibly. Do you have to keep the balance so you aren't over run or possibly have this controlled by upgrade options also. They could be considered your gaurds, non aggressive to you and named allies by default.

Now my "Bat Cave" is established, it has two outposts nearby. A second group of questions come to mind. Can other people use those outposts? If some one else tries to use it, will it notify them of my presence? Would I be notified of thier presence? Can they be used as an extension of my "Bat Cave"?

Whats going to be available for my "Bat Cave"? Is it going to be considered a watch tower with stealth for all intent and purpose? Will it have a storage and power regeneration properties?

Just some questions and ideas I have. Put some input and suggestions in.

Goblin Squad Member

I've had a vision for awhile now of hideouts as instanced underground structures you place on any hex, especially enemy hexes. There shouldn't be hideout slots or it will be damn near impossible to keep one hidden. You should be able to put it almost anywhere. Even inside other non-hideout structures. Such as in a bakery. Though all bakers are totally legitimate and would have no use for a hideout. And they should be damn near impossible to percieve unless you are doing a search action while standing on the enterance and have good perception.

They should offer storage, and grant abilities related to covert and illegal activities. They should eventually be able to act as a respawn point but only for a small number of people. Originally there only defense should be the fact they are hidden but if you continually improve them for a long enough time they should become very difficult to collapse.

Finley they should require influence to build and maintain.

Goblin Squad Member

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Wow. Our vision of hideouts certainly differ.
Intially I understood hideouts as an object that you could use to disappear from the map (ie perceptive characters will find the hideout, but not you) and that gave you the ability to disrupt fast travel. Effectively like a sniper post.
The hideout should be cheap to build, easy to destroy but hard to find. My assumption was that hideouts would be anonymous and that anti-bandit patrols would almost always destroy hideouts immediately.

Then there were discussion whether hideouts should have inventory, which opened the possibility of hidden equipment caches. I still assumed these would be hidden and anonymous, so that anyone stumbling over a hidden cache could simply loot it. (The owner should have some right to defend it, but that's a different discussion).

Now people seem to be discussing upgradable secret underground complexes. Did I miss some dev information on this, or is it just speculation?

I just don't think hideouts should be the new player housing!

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah, I've thought of hideouts as something abstract, somewhat along the lines of what randomwalker wrote. Based on what we've been told of their function, I don't see the need for a physical implementation.

I don't understand the reasoning behind the anonymity of hideouts though, I'd think it would be better if you needed to own it in order to use it?

Goblin Squad Member

I agree somewhat with both arguments of hideouts being outposts and or a POI.

Both would be hidden, with storage capabilities and having the surveillance functions of a watchtower. Both of the ability to pull someone out of fast travel. Both have NPC guards and a PvP Window.

The difference could be that the a Outpost version would have limited or no training capabilities. It obviously should require less skill and resources to build.

The POI hideout may or may not be hidden, or it could be disguised as one if the other POIs. The hidden version can pull travelers out if fast travel, the disguised version would not (doesn't want to draw that attention to it). Both versions of the hideout POI can support two outpost hideouts and also offer training.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:

I've had a vision for awhile now of hideouts as instanced underground structures you place on any hex, especially enemy hexes. There shouldn't be hideout slots or it will be damn near impossible to keep one hidden. You should be able to put it almost anywhere. Even inside other non-hideout structures. Such as in a bakery. Though all bakers are totally legitimate and would have no use for a hideout. And they should be damn near impossible to percieve unless you are doing a search action while standing on the enterance and have good perception.

They should offer storage, and grant abilities related to covert and illegal activities. They should eventually be able to act as a respawn point but only for a small number of people. Originally there only defense should be the fact they are hidden but if you continually improve them for a long enough time they should become very difficult to collapse.

Finley they should require influence to build and maintain.

despite our differences I must say, I agree with Andius on this.

Anyone reposts this or quotes it is subject to my blade.... <evil grin>

Goblin Squad Member

Wurner wrote:


I don't understand the reasoning behind the anonymity of hideouts though, I'd think it would be better if you needed to own it in order to use it?

By anonymity I simply mean that when you find it, you don't know who owns it.

Regarding freedom to destroy/loot hideouts, I've unconsciously assumed that hideouts are unlawful structures, and encountering one is much like meeting a 'criminal' tagged player.

If settlements are to make it legal to own hideouts in their territory, I think that opens up a big bag of exploits. Possible workaround is to have hideout-like settlement/POI buildings with the same functionality that are owned/operated by settlement while outlawing 'real' hideouts. (But why would settlements need hideout functionality on their home turf?)

Goblin Squad Member

<grumbles about reading the WHOLE thread before responding>

While I stand by my above post (Which will never again be referenced by ANYONE!!!!), bludd has stated it best, which could be why he is our leader :-)

Hidden is utmost importance, though anything hidden runs the risk of being found. I really like the idea of a front or "fake" outpost as part of the cover for a hideout.

TO expand a little, I think that hideouts, including those wishing to have a front, should be cheaper to build, but easier to destroy then the normal POI. Also, using a front would have a more limiting access to the normal functions of that outpost. Granted, maybe there could be a way to (in the future) expand the features to make it less obvious its just a front, or maybe vary each version of the outposts so there is a difference and flavor and not a dead give-a-way that it is a front.

Goblin Squad Member

I rather like the idea of players placing underground lairs, though. But I would want them to always have an unwitting chance to open a deeper underground escalation site.

Goblin Squad Member

There is a lot we do not know when it comes to hideouts, POIs, influence, caravans, etc.....

It is my hope that there is a complex and layered system I'm going to go back over the Raiding blogs, the River Kingdoms Guide and then layout a few ideas.

Goblin Squad Member

I've always depicted my future hideouts as places to lay low when the heat is exceptionally bad and to store supplies that I might need at the moment. Nothing valuable though.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I do not want to be able to look up the coordinates of a hideout or have nothing but a training gate to find it.

I'm not sure how to avoid that without making the hideouts' artwork either suck or be prohibitively labor-intensive.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:

I do not want to be able to look up the coordinates of a hideout or have nothing but a training gate to find it.

I'm not sure how to avoid that without making the hideouts' artwork either suck or be prohibitively labor-intensive.

What are the ways that "hideouts" are found in the real world that could be abstracted into the game, in such a way that they are possible to find yet still difficult?

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:

I do not want to be able to look up the coordinates of a hideout or have nothing but a training gate to find it.

I'm not sure how to avoid that without making the hideouts' artwork either suck or be prohibitively labor-intensive.

What prompted you to make those comments? I don't think Hideouts will have any external artwork. We're not supposed to be able to find them easily just by looking.

Hideouts normally cannot be found once constructed, although the potential exists for certain types of characters to learn how to find them...

Advancing a hideout can make it harder to locate...

Goblin Squad Member

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IMO, a bare minimum hideout should be findable, though difficult with a combination of luck and skill. A really advanced hideout should require a series of actions to find, almost like a mini adventure path.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:

I do not want to be able to look up the coordinates of a hideout or have nothing but a training gate to find it.

That depends on who has to look up the coordinates or train to discover them, in my opinion.

Owners and members with permissions should be able to approach within a certain distance of the hideout, and then just fade into the environment.

* This assumes that hideouts won't be located on landscape like a putting green.

For hideouts that are "hidden in plain sight" as a disguised structure, this would be very difficult to pull off I think. Or at least keeping it hidden would be, unless were extremely careful of when and how often they enter or exit. Exiting a hideout, should likewise be hidden.

Short of instancing hideouts, I can't imagine what it would take programming wise.

Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite wrote:
IMO, a bare minimum hideout should be findable, though difficult with a combination of luck and skill. A really advanced hideout should require a series of actions to find, almost like a mini adventure path.

I always had the impression that you would need to train specific skills in order to have a chance of finding a Hideout.

Goblin Squad Member

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Bluddwolf wrote:

Owners and members with permissions should be able to approach within a certain distance of the hideout, and then just fade into the environment...

Exiting a hideout, should likewise be hidden.

Shouldn't it be the bandit's responsibility to make sure that they're not being followed before they enter, and that their Hideout isn't being watched before they exit?

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Bringslite wrote:
IMO, a bare minimum hideout should be findable, though difficult with a combination of luck and skill. A really advanced hideout should require a series of actions to find, almost like a mini adventure path.
I always had the impression that you would need to train specific skills in order to have a chance of finding a Hideout.

That is what I was thinking. Basic hideouts should be cheap to build and maintain and only used until the "heat" in the area gets to be too much. Finding them could be a trainable skill that needs to be used at the right place (luck + skill}. Because just trained skill is too easy.

Locating very advanced hideouts could require a great deal more work. The same way that they do in good fiction. Bandits are one of the "flavors" of villain that I think will add content to the game. Finding their Master Lair should be the work of a group and require a bit of extra work.

How to balance all of that and even code it? *clueless*

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:

Owners and members with permissions should be able to approach within a certain distance of the hideout, and then just fade into the environment...

Exiting a hideout, should likewise be hidden.

Shouldn't it be the bandit's responsibility to make sure that they're not being followed before they enter, and that their Hideout isn't being watched before they exit?
Bluddwolf wrote:
Or at least keeping it hidden would be, unless [they] were extremely careful of when and how often they enter or exit.

Goblin Squad Member

Seems obvious to me Hideouts will be instanced mini-area ie hidden.

As with finding dungeons, certain skill-training would be required.

Now we know more about roads... the possibility of hide-outs anywhere along these well-worn travel/trade highways *licks lips* - highway robbery!

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

"The Goodfellow" wrote:
I must say, I agree with Andius

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Nihimon wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:

I do not want to be able to look up the coordinates of a hideout or have nothing but a training gate to find it.

I'm not sure how to avoid that without making the hideouts' artwork either suck or be prohibitively labor-intensive.

What prompted you to make those comments? I don't think Hideouts will have any external artwork. We're not supposed to be able to find them easily just by looking.

Hideouts normally cannot be found once constructed, although the potential exists for certain types of characters to learn how to find them...

Advancing a hideout can make it harder to locate...

If the only indication of discovering or razing a hideout comes from the UI, that is sufficient for the artwork to suck.

If a hideout can only be constructed in a couple of locations in each hex, then after some time those coordinates will be known. Finding a hideout should at least involve figuring out where it is and then performing some kind of active search in that are, and the area that can be searched should be the same as or slightly larger than the area that the users of the hideout can use.

Goblin Squad Member

Drakhan Valane wrote:
"The Goodfellow" wrote:
I must say, I agree with Andius

Your death will be enjoyed.

Goblin Squad Member

I am not 100% with the instance idea for hideouts, as I think it is perfectly believable that someone could literately stumble into one, though if properly hide and placed that shouldn't happen. Maybe something along the lines of this, when placing a hideout, the leader or creator gets a small list of choices, each with a different cost of influence. Each choice has "perks" such as harder to find, a fence to sell stolen goods, a trainer to give training, ect. Higher costs could include more of these options in 1 hideout, or maybe "higher tier" perks. Maybe there could be a skill tree in the settlement building skills that gives access to more choices, or more improved hideouts. Just some ideas.

Goblin Squad Member

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Bringslite wrote:
IMO, a bare minimum hideout should be findable, though difficult with a combination of luck and skill. A really advanced hideout should require a series of actions to find, almost like a mini adventure path.

Riffing off of this, I'd offer that a hideout could just be a spot on the map, set by whoever built it. (There might be limits placed by GW: there have to be trees or stones or whatever; it can't be in water or in an open field. Whatever limits they think are appropriate.)

If you know the location, you need to be within some small distance to enter the hideout, but you have a map marker to tell you what direction to go to get within range.

If you don't know the location, but have high perception and/or some specific skills, you'll spot the hideout if you move within some range (advanced hideouts have a small spotting range). If you happen to see someone "fade from view," you'll get a hint where you might start looking. Vanishing into a hideout should be different from just logging off.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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I think that under a pond is a fine hideout location, provided that interacting with water is well enough implemented. The idea of an underwater entrance is too awesome to reject out of hand, even if it isn't part of MVP.

Goblin Squad Member

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I think Hideout and I find myself thinking about Skyrim.

I had a small cave picked out that was my go to place. Wasn't very big, Had a bed, alchemy and enchanting table plus a few chests to put things in. Good place to bunk down, sleep and store my stuff.

Once in a blue moon, I had to clear out the Bandits that would sometimes move into it while I was away. Buggers would put on my stuff...really annoyed me seeing them in the gear I had put in a chest.

killed em good for that.

but anyway

it was a nice small little out of the way cave that I could go to when I was feeling like it. It was mine, even if the world didn't recognize my ownership sometimes.

That's how I see hideouts.

This spot, it's mine, I've put stuff here and I will give you a kick in the teeth for trespassing if I catch you here

Now maybe I'm in the woods and I find some guy's little tree fort. I look around, see a used bed, campfire, cooking pot.
someone makes regular use of this place.

time for me to move on before he gets back and kicks my teeth in.

Goblin Squad Member

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I hope that "hideouts" in lawful governed territory don't become the newest version of the "canister trick" but I could see you becoming hostile to the "owner" if you go in and put his PJ's on. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

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"The Goodfellow" wrote:
I must say, I agree with Andius

If this forums had signatures this would be my new one. Instead i will have to make due by quoting this out of context to hell and back.

Goblin Squad Member

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Papaver wrote:
"The Goodfellow" wrote:
I must say, I agree with Andius
If this forums had signatures this would be my new one. Instead i will have to make due by quoting this out of context to hell and back.
The Goodfellow wrote:
Your death will be enjoyed.

Would be mine

Goblin Squad Member

I am glad to have provided such a desired "product" but now we have an issue.... you all will drive me to CE in no time with all the "Random" PK I will be required to perform as people continue to violate my warning. I think I will need more knifes....

Goblin Squad Member

"The Goodfellow" wrote:
I am glad to have provided such a desired "product" but now we have an issue.... you all will drive me to CE in no time with all the "Random" PK I will be required to perform as people continue to violate my warning. I think I will need more knifes....

Don't worry, just do like everyone else will. Set your core to one alignment, and then play another.

I plan on rolling NG and then playing straight through to lower end of CN, then playing it a bit safer alignment wise, recover back towards NG again.

My average will be Chaotic Neutral (Good), on the low end of Good or on the high end of Neutral.

Goblin Squad Member

Well, if alignment recovery is anywhere near as slow as the proposed reputation recovery, that may not be sufficient...

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Shane Gifford wrote:
Well, if alignment recovery is anywhere near as slow as the proposed reputation recovery, that may not be sufficient...

We typically don't care about alignment, we're not Paladins, so anywhere across the Neutral - Chaotic and Good - Evil lines work for us. Lawful is a tougher thing to stick to, except for our Assassins.

Just about everything can be meta gamed, including hideouts as a matter of fact.

Even if hideouts are needed to pull someone out of fast travel, outposts and POIs don't fast travel.

On the issue of fast travel, I'm of the opinion it is not needed and actually it may be detrimental to the game.

I'll bring that up in the settlement politics thread, it is more appropriate there.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
"The Goodfellow" wrote:
I am glad to have provided such a desired "product" but now we have an issue.... you all will drive me to CE in no time with all the "Random" PK I will be required to perform as people continue to violate my warning. I think I will need more knifes....
Don't worry, just do like everyone else will. Set your core to one alignment, and then play another.

Wrong.

Goblin Squad Member

Drakhan Valane wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
"The Goodfellow" wrote:
I am glad to have provided such a desired "product" but now we have an issue.... you all will drive me to CE in no time with all the "Random" PK I will be required to perform as people continue to violate my warning. I think I will need more knifes....
Don't worry, just do like everyone else will. Set your core to one alignment, and then play another.
Wrong.

I specifically asked Ryan and he affirmed that you could start in one alignment and drift through another, then bounce back again (before hitting CE) and he said that was not just correct, but 100% correct!!

The only class that does not have that flexibility is the Paladin. Even Clerics have a few alignments they can be and still serve the same Deity. Monks have to be lawful, but they can drift through the Good - Evil axis. Barbarians have all but Lawful to bounce around through. Fighters, Rogues, Rangers, Magic users, etc... gain or lose nothing based on alignment.

So I'm afraid, you are "wrong". The only thing The Goodfellow "May" have to maintain is Evil, to have access to his Assassin's abilities. Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic makes not difference.

Now as far as Hideouts are concerned, I doubt they will have alignment requirements.

My question is, can Ad Hoc companies own a hideout, outpost or POI?

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

You're 100% wrong that EVERYONE will do what you claim. You keep talking in absurd absolutes when only a subset of the player base would consider what you claim everyone will do. Unless you have a plan to force people to not play the game the way they want to.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
I think that under a pond is a fine hideout location, provided that interacting with water is well enough implemented. The idea of an underwater entrance is too awesome to reject out of hand, even if it isn't part of MVP.

I guess behind the waterfall is a bit obvious huh?

Goblin Squad Member

Drakhan Valane wrote:
You're 100% wrong that EVERYONE will do what you claim.

Relax Drakhan, he may just be using a different number system.

One - two - many - lots - everyone (and presumably EVERYONE is a few numbers after that again)

Alternatively, he may assume that 51%+ will be doing it, which in black and white terms rounds up to everyone. Or may be simply using an old rethorical method called exaggeration.

Drakhan Valane wrote:
Unless you have a plan to force people to not play the game the way they want to.

Nah, EVERYONE would oppose that!

(apologies in advance to Bluddwolf, nothing personal or malicious intended, just playing word games)

Goblin Squad Member

avari3 wrote:


I guess behind the waterfall is a bit obvious huh?

You're thinking of the Phantom cave. This thread is about the Batcave.

Goblin Squad Member

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Drakhan Valane wrote:
You're 100% wrong that EVERYONE will do what you claim. You keep talking in absurd absolutes when only a subset of the player base would consider what you claim everyone will do. Unless you have a plan to force people to not play the game the way they want to.

Take a chill pill dude, and instead of just saying "Wrong", qualify what you're referring to. Yes you are correct "everyone" may not have been the best choice of words, but it is not very likely at all that a majority won't drift at least one step away from their core on occasion. The system is designed to allow for a some flexibility, with the one exception I mentioned (Paladins).

Put the scalpel away, I have too few hairs left to split. I'll use one of Ryan's favorite expressions, Paladins are a "corner case", the rare exception. Next time I'll be sure to say "almost everyone".

Goblin Squad Member

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Well, I plan to play a LG merchant and almost never drift from that. So I don't plan on "Setting my core to one alignment, and then playing another." Not saying my active alignment will never drift, but I do plan on doing both Lawful and Good things.

I concede that I could be a minority case in that I plan to play my core alignment though. I just don't know enough about the systems to say definitively either way.

Goblin Squad Member

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I also believe that my main will be LG and strive to stay there. I think that may be the most challenging path to play.

Goblin Squad Member

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Given it's been implied there will be penalties for having an active and core alignment that don't line up, I'm guessing almost nobody will set their core to something they don't intend to follow the majority of the time.

CEO, Goblinworks

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The hideout has to have a non-physical entrance and no defined location in the hex otherwise they'll be useless. How you find one has to have at least two components: a character ability related to tracking and sensing, and an observational component involving seeing someone access the hideout. If it's just the former, they'll be useless. If it's just the latter, they'll be useless.

What might happen is that if you do find one (ability + observation) then the system might create some kind of short-term visible object so you can leave, group up and invade it. It has to be short time limited or they'll be useless.

OpSec to keep people from observing someone accessing the hideout is going to be crucial.

I'm defining useless as not being worth the effort to build and operate one due to excessive risk of discovery and loss. If you can find a hideout in a day or two after creating it, it's probably useless.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:
Given it's been implied there will be penalties for having an active and core alignment that don't line up, I'm guessing almost nobody will set their core to something they don't intend to follow the majority of the time.

I thought this was TBD by the devs?

Goblin Squad Member

It follows that the cat and mouse will have skills, raiders raid, tracker track raiders, if the hideout is found it is found. Now how will that effect rep? Assuming the criminal flag lasts long enough to find the hideout. Would trackers call it a day when the flag expires?

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

@Ryan
Thanks for the reply. It gives us a little insight to your thoughts on this.

So it sounds like my "Bat Cave" will be instanced. If the entrance isn't going to be physical, it could be implemented like so. I find my spot i would like for my "Bat Cave" and mark it. This mark would be the access point for the hide-out. The mark can be on a tree, rock, wall or whatever. The mark will only be visible to whom I give permission. Clicking this mark loads you out of the terrain into the instance.

Now for a character with out permission to see it, they have to have the training to see them, then be in line of sight when some one uses it. Then after all that, they still need to have the perception to actually see the mark. Setting it up like this will enable us make a hide-out just about any where <behind the counter of a bakery etc.> But if its made in town, you will be more likely seen using the mark to access it.

Being a player created structure, it should offer a stash and some power regen at the lower levels, then bigger stash, detection radius, and fence at higher levels.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Alignment should not be a factor in any shape or form to a hide-out.

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