Using Hero's Defiance outside the box


Rules Questions


Since Hero's Defiance is a IA that is used before you drop to 0 hp, can you use it ANYTIME before you drop below 0.

IE a Paladin is hit with an attack that will Daze or stagger him, can he use the IA to use a LOH that would not just heal him, but utilize the mercy feature that removes the condition even if the attack would not drop him below 0 hp?

Since the spell is cast, as opposed to a contingency type spell (duration instantaneous) Can it be cast anytime as a IA?

Thoughts?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Hero's Defiance can only be used when it says it can be used. It does what it says it does.

Any attack that will not take the Paladin to 0 or fewer hit points does not trigger the ability. However, when the ability does trigger, any additional healing affects that the Paladin normally gets with his Lay On Hands apply, because HD says that you heal yourself as if you had used LoH.

A staggered creature can still take immediate actions, so that wouldn't keep the Paladin from using Hero's Defiance against an attack that would both take him to 0 hit points or below AND stagger him (or if he was already staggered).

Dazed, on the other hand, is problematic. A dazed creature can take no actions (including the immediate action necessary to use Hero's Defiance). If the Paladin was already dazed and then hit with an attack that takes him to 0 HP or below, he can't use Hero's Defiance. I don't think he can use it if the same attack both dazes him and takes him to 0 or below either.

Edit:fixed link


SlimGauge wrote:

A staggered creature can still take immediate actions, so that wouldn't keep the Paladin from using Hero's Defiance against an attack that would both take him to 0 hit points or below AND stagger him (or if he was already staggered).

Dazed, on the other hand, is problematic. A dazed creature can take no actions (including the immediate action necessary to use Hero's Defiance). If the Paladin was already dazed and then hit with an attack that takes him to 0 HP or below, he can't use Hero's Defiance. I don't think he can use it if the same attack both dazes him and takes him to 0 or below either.

Good points, however.. The spell must be cast at the time of the effect. It's not cast, then triggered like contingency. Since the spell can not be cast if you below 0, I don't see the reason why it should not be able to be used anytime your above 0. (other than the text saying just before you drop below to zero you can cast this) from a mechanics standpoint it's a spell you cast before you are hit to try and negate going below 0.

So mechanically is there a difference between that and casting it to prevent being dazed. ( your right staggered was a poor example, stunned would be a better example. )

If you have the Mercy feature to remove Daze (or stunned etc) , you get that in addition to the healing. It's not an either or, it's both

Each mercy adds an effect to the paladin's lay on hands ability. Whenever the paladin uses lay on hands to heal damage to one target, the target also receives the additional effects from all of the mercies possessed by the paladin.


Clectabled wrote:
SlimGauge wrote:

A staggered creature can still take immediate actions, so that wouldn't keep the Paladin from using Hero's Defiance against an attack that would both take him to 0 hit points or below AND stagger him (or if he was already staggered).

Dazed, on the other hand, is problematic. A dazed creature can take no actions (including the immediate action necessary to use Hero's Defiance). If the Paladin was already dazed and then hit with an attack that takes him to 0 HP or below, he can't use Hero's Defiance. I don't think he can use it if the same attack both dazes him and takes him to 0 or below either.

Good points, however.. The spell must be cast at the time of the effect. It's not cast, then triggered like contingency. Since the spell can not be cast if you are below 0, I don't see the reason why it should not be able to be used anytime your above 0. (other than the text saying just before you drop below to zero you can cast this) from a mechanics standpoint it's a spell you cast before you are hit to try and negate going below 0.

So mechanically is there a difference between that and casting it to prevent being dazed. ( your right staggered was a poor example, stunned would be a better example. )

If you have the Mercy feature to remove Daze (or stunned etc) , you get that in addition to the healing. It's not an either or, it's both

Each mercy adds an effect to the paladin's lay on hands ability. Whenever the paladin uses lay on hands to heal damage to one target, the target also receives the additional effects from all of the mercies possessed by the paladin.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Clectabled wrote:
Since the spell can not be cast if you [weren't taken to or] below 0, I don't see the reason why it should not be able to be used anytime your above 0. (other than the text saying just before you drop below to zero you can cast this) from a mechanics standpoint it's a spell you cast before you are hit to try and negate going below 0.

This is the rules forum. The reason (why you can't just do this at any time) is because the rules say so. You MUST be at 0 or below to cast this spell and MUST have just been reduced to that hit point total. If you want to ask what the ramifications of a house-rule that immediate action spells can be cast without the trigger, that would be the advice forum.

I disagree that the spell is being cast before you are hit. I say the spell is being cast after you've been hit, after you've determined the damage, between the time that you determine that your current hitpoints are at 0 or below and the time that you apply the effects of being at 0 or below.

If the attack that took you below 0 also gave you a condition that prevents you from casting (either by giving you a condition that prevents you from expending the needed immediate action or somehow else such as a spell storing weapon applying Silence), then you can't cast this spell.

EDIT: fixed quote tag.


SlimGauge wrote:


This is the rules forum. The reason (why you can't just do this at any time) is because the rules say so. You MUST be at 0 or below to cast this spell and MUST have just been reduced to that hit point total.

That's not what the spell says.The instant before you are reduced to 0 or fewer hit points..

SlimGauge wrote:


If the attack that took you below 0 also gave you a condition that prevents you from casting (either by giving you a condition that prevents you from expending the needed immediate action or somehow else such as a spell storing weapon applying Silence), then you can't cast this spell.

I am not sure I agree with this statement, after all being unconscious or dead is a condition that would prevent the casting of the spell.

Right? If the spell is cast before that condition takes effect, other conditions affected by Lay on hands should be affected as well.

Slim, great points, and that is exactly why this is in the rules forum. To determine exactly when the spell goes off.

I do appreciate your thoughts Slim, just not sure how much I agree with them.

It really seems to me the text The instant before you are reduced to 0 or fewer hit points is flavor text, or at least should be.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

That line may have been put in to prevent weird overlap with other things that trigger on being reduced to 0 or below.

I hesitate to speculate about intent, since this is the rules forum, but I believe the intent is to have the spell available after being hit (so that all effects of being hit EXCEPT those triggered by the Effects of Hit Point Damage (disabled, dying or dead) happen. If the spell is then successfully cast (failing to cast defensively or loosing the spell to an AoO or being unable to cast the spell because of a condition or Silence are possible) AND you successfully heal enough to avoid becoming disabled, dying or dead, then you never were disabled, dying or dead and any other effects that trigger when you become disabled, dying or dead do not trigger.

Of course, that's WAY longer than what they wrote, so that's probably why it wasn't written that way.

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